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Who’s in charge at Amazon? Moves on secretive S Team signal giant’s priorities
- Pfhreak 7y agoOne of the things I really liked about working for AWS was the accessibility of the S-team. Even as a fairly junior engineer I was in meetings where you could get their opinions, see where they were going, and understand their goals. AWS has a lot of things I don't love (not least of all, their policy towards developing games in your spare time), but they had a ton of rigor around setting goals while still giving dev teams the opportunity to (mostly?) drive the details of what those goals were. (I've heard this is maybe not the case in all AWS teams, but I had some great local leadership as well.) If they could fix a couple of deeply set cultural issues (open source and side projects were definitely hard or impossible), not lean quite so heavily on their employees (I was oncall 24/7 for months in the worst times and received no extra comp), and disconnect themselves from whatever is going on with the retail side's treatment of labor.... Well, I'm not sure I'd come back, actually. They'd have to change quite a bit more -- the promo process, the stack ranking/"top grading" twice yearly, better benefits and comp... But I do genuinely miss working in the AWS org. There's a lot of incredible things to learn there. While I don't see myself coming back, the lessons I learned there have been absolutely invaluable.
- lowiqengineer 7y ago> Well, I'm not sure I'd come back, actually I’m at Amazon right now (Ads) and honestly this makes me really sad. It feels like I’m not allowed to be proud of where I work.
- Pfhreak 7y agoHey, you are totally allowed! You and I probably value things differently! I'm a parent now, my values have shifted over time, and I got really burned out trying to improve things over there. I didn't like that once I became a manager I was pressured to identify and remove (rather than train/help) my people who weren't top tier. Those could have been things local to my org. If you are happy, be proud of what you are doing. Like I said, I think it was a really valuable 6 years. I'm glad I was there, I learned a ton, met awesome engineers.
- ahelwer 7y agoNot to put too fine a point on it, but if you're working in ads you are working to surveil & modify the behavior of your fellow humans against their consent. Make your own judgement about whether you should be proud of that.
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- Supermancho 7y ago> against their consent I have worked in ads for over 15 years. I certainly don't believe it's any more "against your consent" than stores coloring their walls to modify behavior or placing goods in a more visible location to sell more, or that fluffy animals are perceived as cute. The work is good and I have never been happier than when I work in adtech.
- luckylion 7y agoIt's a bit more invasive than "coloring the walls", right?
- Supermancho 7y agoIs it? Superstore chain (let's say Walmart's) cost/benefit margins of coloring the walls is orders of magnitude larger day to day, than ad revenue budgets of most companies year over year. People like to be outraged about the most fringe issues, because they feel like it's championing the good fight. Advertising is the least of life's problems (local or at large). It's fucking 2020, can we get Pepsi and Coke in the same restaurant yet? That's an advertising issue that I wish someone would address.
- luckylion 7y agoThat's because Walmart is gigantic, not because blue vs green walls make such an enormous difference. It's the difference between having some vapid happy tunes playing in the super market and them analyzing your profile and previous purchases to bombard you with customized messages to make you feel bad because you'll buy more. The level of invasiveness is very different, and you need thorough tracking and denial of privacy for one but not the other.
- Klonoar 7y agoYou're certainly allowed to be proud... but others don't have to respect your career choices (and many won't, which is fine). Personally speaking, I've had Amazon try to pull me a few times and I just stopped responding to their emails. It's a large company and I can agree that there's leagues of separation between, say, AWS and warehouse operations... but I also just don't care, I can't co-sign the kind of stuff that you hear about (and has been verified by people coming forward). The tech industry is large enough that if you're good enough to work at Amazon, you probably have options. My 2 cents, I guess.
- lowiqengineer 7y agoI've been rejected at Google and Facebook and most of HN doesn't think my total compensation is all that impressive, so, I probably don't have many options to be real with you.
- SamBam 7y ago> The tech industry is large enough that if you're good enough to work at Amazon, you probably have options. > I've been rejected at Google and Facebook These two statements are not contradicting each other...
- lowiqengineer 7y agoPerhaps, but my goal is to make ~$250k a year as fast as possible. To do so at my current company would take at least 3 years and 2 promotions, whereas even James Damore was making $400k+ 4 years into his tenure. I can't get offers at trading firms, so I'm kinda SOL overall.
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- shitlord 7y agoThe easiest path to $250k is to go to Oracle. The next easiest path is to go to a unicorn. If you can reach the SDE2-equivalent, you'll be earning over 250k.
- stevejb 7y agoNobody but yourself has to give you permission for this. It's an honest living. Lots of people who would give you shit about this are in the VC-funded "Uber eats for dog treats" world and may have an over-inflated sense of the social value their jobs are supposedly creating.
- lowiqengineer 7y agoThat's fair. I think what I work on is infinitely more important even though it's a piece of a larger puzzle given how rapidly we're adding to the bottom line (just look at the last earnings call - ). But those are the people that are still negotiating compensation packages of hundreds of thousands more than me, and seem to get everything through life, from Harker to Stanford to Google/Stripe to YC W20, etc. I'd rather be like them than be considered a "blue collar engineer" as I currently am considered by my peers.
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- amf12 7y ago> than be considered a "blue collar engineer" as I currently am considered by my peers. I might be completely wrong about this, but I feel you have low-self esteem and you are tying your sense of self-worth to where you work. Whenever I have heard something negative about Amazon is that they overwork people and there is no work life balance. But almost all of them have said it was worth it in terms of growing and learning. If you feel that what you are working on has enough impact, and you are learning a lot. Put your head down, fuck what others think of Amazon, and grow as an engineer. After that a lot more opportunities might open for you.
- lowiqengineer 7y agoMy WLB is good to great, and is for everyone in my greater organization. My problem is that I don’t get off sites to Cabo or free massages.
- adreamingsoul 7y agoI encourage you to speak with a therapist about how you feel. Money is not going to make you happy or proud, comparing yourself to others is a zero-sum game, and living to work comes at a cost. Seriously, find and talk with a professional. How you are feeling now is probably not going to change even if you achieved everything you want.
- dkersten 7y agoI don’t understand why anybody, anywhere, would be proud of where they work. Being proud of your work (what you do/accomplish or the products you put out) sure, but why would I ever be proud of working for any particular company (certainly a for profit. Using amazon as an example, you can be proud of the work you do but why would you be proud that you’re helping make bezos richer?)
- dyadic 7y agoYou find one that aligns with your own personal goals and ethics. I found one, and working with other people there feels like a multiplier on the change I want to see in the world. Generally they'll be quite small and niche but they do exist.
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- bakenator 7y agoI'm just curious, what was your experience trying to develop games in your spare time? Were you told to stop?
- lowiqengineer 7y agoPeople sometimes do, they just don't publicize it. It's specifically noted in the intellectual property agreement, though nobody seems to be sure why.
- Pfhreak 7y agoSearch inside for the 'Game Development Policy', it's separate from the intellectual property commitment. Reasoning is likely from Amazon Games Studios? I think there may be a concern that someone at Amazon might make the next flappy bird or Minecraft and Amazon couldn't capitalize on it.
- whatsmyusername 7y agoThe one time I met an Amazon games studio employee my response was, “Amazon has a games studio?” He said it was a common response.
- Pfhreak 7y agoHeh. I worked in Amazon Games for a bit. It was a very common question. Along with, "What games have they made?" (Breakaway a 'sports brawler', The Grand Tour game a tie in for the show, New World an mmo about being a colonizer, Crucible a third person shooter.)
- JamesBarney 7y agoWoah, totally surprised by the New World mmo. That looks like a PR landmine.
- cloakandswagger 7y ago
- nickbauman 7y agoAverage tenure of an Amazon employee on the tech side is something like a year or so.
- notyourwork 7y agoBased on what citation? Here say isn’t useful to the conversation.
- whoevercares 7y agoThe length of tenure by level would make more sense. Senior and Principal SDEs (L6&7) in Amazon are like semi and full god, while lower level ICs are design to “hire fast, fail fast”
- whateveracct 7y agoI think you gave it backwards. Or at least it goes both ways. Long tenure naturally results in becoming L6 if you have a boss who develops you and aims to get you there (+ understands how to work in the review/promotion system and check the boxes.) Maybe I misinterpreted, but it sounds like you deify L6 engineers as "better" and that's why they remain. I don't think that's exactly it lol. Also..people leaving in 2 years as L4/5s aren't "failing fast." They're bailing for better gigs with a few Amazon projects on their resume - I'd even go as far as to say that's many of their plans coming in!
- guitarbill 7y agoIt's a good plan. You can learn from some great engineers. But you definitely need other experiences, as Amazon's internal tooling feels like 2005 and isn't very transferable knowledge. (Why they don't spend more money on this is beyond me, the terrible tooling really ruins productivity.)
- hef19898 7y agoWhich is a very sensible plan to have. My biggest mistake was to not have an exit strategy I followed from day one. But than LVL 5, or 4, at Amazon isn't that bad. You have probably more responsibility than a LVL-6 equivalent at any other non-FAANG corp.
- jessriedel 7y agoEverything after your first two sentences is off-topic. If the comments on all articles about Amazon devolve into general complaints about Amazon, there will never be quality discussion.
- plicense 7y agoUmm I guess you could ignore the comment then. Part of what I like about HN is the tangential discussion and the personal experience that commenters share.
- jessriedel 7y agoIf "you should ignore it"/"just downvote it" was sufficient, we wouldn't need site guidelines or moderators. Off-topic Amazon hate will always win the upvote wars unless people are principled.
- Pfhreak 7y agoDid I come off as hating Amazon? I'm thankful for my time there. I learned buckets. I specifically called out several things about Amazon I really liked. I'm at a different place in my life and the things I commented on are fair criticisms. (Critiquing something is not the same as hating something. I have plenty of media I critique that I also enjoy.)
- jessriedel 7y agoYour net judgement came off as mildly negative, but the structure of merely listing complaints about the place, many of which have been discussed here ad nauseam, with no substantive connection to the article, is hater catnip.
- wpietri 7y agoWe have site guidelines and moderators, neither of which seem to have taken exception to somebody posting honestly about their experience relating to the article topic. Maybe you don't need to be sheriff of HN for this? I thought it was a useful and interesting comment. If you've had your fill of some subtopic, do what I do: keep scrolling.
- Dig1t 7y agoMan I'm glad these threads pop up. Every so often Amazon starts to look tempting as a place to work, and I need threads like this to remind me that it sucks and isn't worth it.
- anonu 7y agoI read the parent comment as mostly positive. The average tenure of the s team sits at 16 years. That's a long time to be working in one place. So the negative press about working there is maybe a bit sensationalist
- Pfhreak 7y agoI think I still feel mostly positive about working at AWS. I'm glad I did it for six years, but I'm in a different place in my life. I value different things now. I'm not the young, work driven person I used to be. (Or at least not as much.) Edit: That said, I don't think the negative media is sensationalist. I would absolutely believe that some people cried at their (door) desks. I would believe that people were verbally or emotionally abusive. Amazon operates in little pods, and if there's a bad leader organizing a set of pods, they can really turn the culture there toxic. I was lucky to have a fantastic set of leaders (shout outs to Builder Tools) who really supported their people. I've heard some first person accounts of orgs that were... not out of line with media accounts.
- offbyone 7y agoYeah... BT is still pretty great. Good leaders for the most part, and the opportunity to have huge positive effects on many fronts.
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- sneak 7y agoLet’s also not forget that Amazon are war profiteers: https://aws.amazon.com/government-education/defense/ https://aws.amazon.com/government-education/defense/
- eyjafjallajokul 7y agoPhil S? Is that you?
- adreamingsoul 7y agoI agree with this.
- tasogare 7y ago> I was oncall 24/7 for months in the worst times and received no extra comp How is that even legally possible?
- Rebelgecko 7y agopresumably by being a salaried exempt employee
- chrisseaton 7y agoIf you're paid a significantly large salary then you are 'exempt' overtime and they can ask you to be available at any time. The expectation is that you're being paid as a professional to achieve something, not to clock-in and clock-out. If you want to work hours only with formal overtime you can get a job that's paid less and paid hourly so that you are eligible for overtime, or you can ask for extra compensation and negotiate those terms yourself, but they may say no in which case you should look for a different job if it matters to you.
- ansgri 7y agoBut what would they actually do if you’d say that you’ve been on call enough already, not going to continue for a week or two? sure they wouldn’t terminate you, that’d be too expensive for a skilled employee of which there is rumored to be a great shortage. American work culture seems very strange.
- chrisseaton 7y ago> But what would they actually do if you’d say that you’ve been on call enough already, not going to continue for a week or two? You have a conversation about it, adult to adult. Why’s that so hard to do? > sure they wouldn’t terminate you, that’d be too expensive for a skilled employee of which there is rumored to be a great shortage Yes that’s your leverage in a deal. > American work culture seems very strange. Individuals being able to work out what balance of work and compensation works for them by talking to their employer is strange? The question was how is it legal - it’s legal because the government lets highly paid professionals with leverage manage their life themselves.
- fred_is_fred 7y agoThere is almost no level of comp that being on call 24/7 for months on end is worth. That essentially means that they control you at all times, you cannot go hiking or camping, you probably can't go skiing or surfing. Any activity away from a phone or out of the coverage area is difficult if not impossible. I'm glad that you were able to get out of that routine because it's mentally taxing.
- aghostincarrot 7y agoReading your posts makes it clear you have a self astern problem
- heymoneataguava 7y agoyou are a nazi.
- paganel 7y agoYeah, real diversity when it comes to Amazon's C-suites, no black person in sight and the only 3 women in that S-team are in charge of HR, fashion and advertising. Granted, that's a step up from having to take notes in a room full of men, but still, I would have expected something better.
- dextralt 7y agoAre you: - suggesting that Amazon is passing over better qualified minorities in favor of less qualified white men? - bemoaning that Amazon is passing over less qualified minorities in favor of better qualified white men? I mean, I already know the answer, as does everyone else who is paying any attention to the shift in the narrative, but I just want you to remind everyone else that meritocracy is fascism and people should be judged - accepted into universities, hired, and promoted, not by the content of their character, but by the color of their skin.
- paganel 7y agoI'm just stating the fact that the current societal status quo is such that no black person is part of the executive-team of one of the first biggest three companies in the world and that the women that are part of said team have been put in positions that have been usually associated with women, the positions usually associated with men are occupied only by, well, men. I personally believe that all men and women are created equal, no matter their skin color, and when a society is "built" in such a way that only white men get to put their hands on the positions that "matter" then it means that no way in hell that society is meritocratic. Believing otherwise is believing that there are intrinsic differences between men and women, and more generally speaking between people of different skin colors. We both know that is not the case. Which leaves us with why do only white men get to "profit" from the current status-quo?
- dextralt 7y agoI suppose you have similar concerns about men occupying the overwhelming majority of physically taxing and hazardous jobs, correct? Obviously, we both know there are no intrinsic differences between men and women, so this is a great injustice that women's representation among miners, construction workers, metalworkers, truckers, heavy machinery operators, fishermen, foresters, waster disposal workers, and so on, is virtually nonexistent. And of course you find it outrageous that in the entirety of Asia, Africa and Middle East, white people constitute nonexistent percentage of the population, and there are virtually no white men in the positions of power there. Right?