6 ms·

Speaking of, I wish there were an "idiomatic code benchmarks game". Some of us want to compare language speed for common use cases vs trying to squeeze every l

Speaking of, I wish there were an "idiomatic code benchmarks game". Some of us want to compare language speed for common use cases vs trying to squeeze every last piece of performance from it.

totalperspectiv 7y ago
Check out this: https://github.com/frol/completely-unscientific-benchmarks https://github.com/frol/completely-unscientific-benchmarks
- tormeh 7y ago
  D, Nim and Crystal all do very well on all metrics. Author finds Rust pretty close but not as maintainable. Interesting that the top 3 (performance close to C++, but more maintainable) all are niche languages that haven't really broken into the mainstream.
  - marcosdumay 7y ago
    Rust won't get a maintainability prize for short programs with simple algorithms. It's Haskell-like features only help on large and complex programs.
    - vnorilo 7y ago
      They do help library writers, and therefore turn large and complex programs into shorter programs.
  - corford 7y ago
    I really wish Intel or MS or someone would fund D so it could give Go and Rust a run for their money. It's as fast (or faster), expressive, powerful and, subjectively, easier to pick up and code in than Rust. It just needs some backers with muscle.
    - jholman 7y ago
      Maybe some big FAANG company. Start at the beginning of the acronym, I guess. I wonder if anyone could persuade anyone at Facebook to do a little bit of D professionally. I bet if even one serious Facebook engineer made a serious effort to use D, its adoption woes would be over.
      - vips7L 7y ago
        Walter Bright the author of D worked at Facebook writing a fast preprocessor for C/C++ in D.
        jholman 7y ago
        Alexandrescu, too. They also talked about it pretty frequently. Maybe ggp's claim that D just needs a heavy hitter backing it might be misplaced.
        vips7L 7y ago
        I don't think it's misplaced. Facebook wasn't really backing D by hiring them. And it doesn't seem like that specific project is active anymore.
        dom96 7y ago
        Walter too? AFAIK it was just Andrei.
      - Cyph0n 7y ago
        I thought Facebook used to “unofficially” support D? Or am I mixing languages up? Right now, I think eBay is one of the big companies that uses D. Edit: Sibling comment beat me to it.
      - sophiebits 7y ago
        Facebook is unlikely to move to D at this point and already has multiple serious projects in Rust (that they’re happy about, AFAIK).
    - 7y ago
  - systems 7y ago
    I strongly believe, that people should consider the ecosystem part of maintainability risk and claim Rust have by far the better ecosystem compared to those 3
    - no_wizard 7y ago
      That’s highly subjective claim to bare without evidence. All three languages are actively maintained and are growing. My refute it simply: Rusts web development story isn’t out of the box clean like Crystal Lang’s which ships with an HTML language out of the box. So it could be categorized as a poor choice in comparison to Crystal
      - nindalf 7y ago
        > ships with an HTML language Did you mean HTTP server? If so, there are at least 3 good ones in Rust that are only a `cargo add` away. If you've already taken the trouble to set up a toolchain for a new language, surely a single line isn't asking too much.
- igouy 7y ago
  — Expressiveness "keep in mind that this is a subjective metric based on the author's experience!" — Maintenance Complexity "keep in mind that this is a subjective metric based on the author's experience!"
UtherII 7y ago
The problem would be to get a definition of idiomatic code. Would it be fair to accept an optimization on a language and refuse it on another because it is not idiomatic ?
igouy 7y ago
>> I wish there were an "idiomatic code benchmarks game" Help make one: — contribute programs that you consider to be "idiomatic" https://salsa.debian.org/benchmarksgame-team/benchmarksgame/blob/master/README.md https://salsa.debian.org/benchmarksgame-team/benchmarksgame/... — use those measurement and web scripts to publish your own "common use cases" "idiomatic code" benchmarks game ---- >> compare language speed for common use cases vs trying to squeeze every last piece of performance — please be clear about why you wish to compare the speed of programs written as if speed did not matter ---- ??? What do you think is not "idiomatic" about programs such as: https://benchmarksgame-team.pages.debian.net/benchmarksgame/program/nbody-java-1.html https://benchmarksgame-team.pages.debian.net/benchmarksgame/...
cryptos 7y ago
There is a lot more than the language/compiler what influences the results, but at least these benchmarks are closer to real world than solving math puzzles in micro benchmarks. https://www.techempower.com/benchmarks/ https://www.techempower.com/benchmarks/

Speaking of, I wish there were an "idiomatic code benchmarks game". Some of us want to compare language speed for common use cases vs trying to squeeze every last piece of performance from it.

totalperspectiv 7y ago

Check out this: https://github.com/frol/completely-unscientific-benchmarks https://github.com/frol/completely-unscientific-benchmarks

tormeh 7y ago
D, Nim and Crystal all do very well on all metrics. Author finds Rust pretty close but not as maintainable. Interesting that the top 3 (performance close to C++, but more maintainable) all are niche languages that haven't really broken into the mainstream.
- marcosdumay 7y ago
  Rust won't get a maintainability prize for short programs with simple algorithms. It's Haskell-like features only help on large and complex programs.
  - vnorilo 7y ago
    They do help library writers, and therefore turn large and complex programs into shorter programs.
- corford 7y ago
  I really wish Intel or MS or someone would fund D so it could give Go and Rust a run for their money. It's as fast (or faster), expressive, powerful and, subjectively, easier to pick up and code in than Rust. It just needs some backers with muscle.
  - jholman 7y ago
    Maybe some big FAANG company. Start at the beginning of the acronym, I guess. I wonder if anyone could persuade anyone at Facebook to do a little bit of D professionally. I bet if even one serious Facebook engineer made a serious effort to use D, its adoption woes would be over.
    - vips7L 7y ago
      Walter Bright the author of D worked at Facebook writing a fast preprocessor for C/C++ in D.
      - jholman 7y ago
        Alexandrescu, too. They also talked about it pretty frequently. Maybe ggp's claim that D just needs a heavy hitter backing it might be misplaced.
        vips7L 7y ago
        I don't think it's misplaced. Facebook wasn't really backing D by hiring them. And it doesn't seem like that specific project is active anymore.
      - dom96 7y ago
        Walter too? AFAIK it was just Andrei.
    - Cyph0n 7y ago
      I thought Facebook used to “unofficially” support D? Or am I mixing languages up? Right now, I think eBay is one of the big companies that uses D. Edit: Sibling comment beat me to it.
    - sophiebits 7y ago
      Facebook is unlikely to move to D at this point and already has multiple serious projects in Rust (that they’re happy about, AFAIK).
  - 7y ago
- systems 7y ago
  I strongly believe, that people should consider the ecosystem part of maintainability risk and claim Rust have by far the better ecosystem compared to those 3
  - no_wizard 7y ago
    That’s highly subjective claim to bare without evidence. All three languages are actively maintained and are growing. My refute it simply: Rusts web development story isn’t out of the box clean like Crystal Lang’s which ships with an HTML language out of the box. So it could be categorized as a poor choice in comparison to Crystal
    - nindalf 7y ago
      > ships with an HTML language Did you mean HTTP server? If so, there are at least 3 good ones in Rust that are only a `cargo add` away. If you've already taken the trouble to set up a toolchain for a new language, surely a single line isn't asking too much.
igouy 7y ago
— Expressiveness "keep in mind that this is a subjective metric based on the author's experience!" — Maintenance Complexity "keep in mind that this is a subjective metric based on the author's experience!"

UtherII 7y ago

The problem would be to get a definition of idiomatic code. Would it be fair to accept an optimization on a language and refuse it on another because it is not idiomatic ?

igouy 7y ago

>> I wish there were an "idiomatic code benchmarks game" Help make one: — contribute programs that you consider to be "idiomatic" https://salsa.debian.org/benchmarksgame-team/benchmarksgame/blob/master/README.md https://salsa.debian.org/benchmarksgame-team/benchmarksgame/... — use those measurement and web scripts to publish your own "common use cases" "idiomatic code" benchmarks game ---- >> compare language speed for common use cases vs trying to squeeze every last piece of performance — please be clear about why you wish to compare the speed of programs written as if speed did not matter ---- ??? What do you think is not "idiomatic" about programs such as: https://benchmarksgame-team.pages.debian.net/benchmarksgame/program/nbody-java-1.html https://benchmarksgame-team.pages.debian.net/benchmarksgame/...

cryptos 7y ago

There is a lot more than the language/compiler what influences the results, but at least these benchmarks are closer to real world than solving math puzzles in micro benchmarks. https://www.techempower.com/benchmarks/ https://www.techempower.com/benchmarks/