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The Secret to a Happy Marriage: Do the Dishes, Put Out, Don’t Talk So Much
- kgermino 16y ago404 Edit: Working link, courtesy mhb http://blogs.wsj.com/ideas-market/2011/02/14/the-secret-to-a-happy-marriage-do-the-dishes-put-out-don%E2%80%99t-talk-so-much/ http://blogs.wsj.com/ideas-market/2011/02/14/the-secret-to-a...
- mhb 16y agoWorking link: http://blogs.wsj.com/ideas-market/2011/02/14/the-secret-to-a-happy-marriage-do-the-dishes-put-out-don%E2%80%99t-talk-so-much/ http://blogs.wsj.com/ideas-market/2011/02/14/the-secret-to-a...
- faitswulff 16y agoThank you.
- kungfooey 16y agoI've been following the author's blog at http://www.spousonomics.com/ http://www.spousonomics.com/ - some fluff, but in general it's pretty good.
- OasisG 16y agoThen party like it's 1950. ETA: With the growing number of men who refuse to pick up every check, plan every date/event, act as sole provider for the family, purchase gifts regularly for their other half, etc. for fear of marrying a woman who is too focused on money... I'm really beginning to wonder what women are getting out of this marriage deal anymore.
- colinplamondon 16y ago50% after the divorce?
- klinquist 16y agono kidding :(
- smallblacksun 16y agoPlus alimony for the rest of their life?
- dpritchett 16y agoI didn't recognize this advice as being gender-specific.
- tptacek 16y agoI would like to know more about the 4 people that voted this comment up from zero.
- OasisG 16y agoI'd like to know more about the dating lives of the guys who DON'T think this line of thinking belongs in the previous century.
- dpritchett 16y agoI'd like to know why my comment pointing out the inherent flaw in the GP's argument (this advice works equally well for married people of either gender) was killed.
- Swizec 16y agoPerhaps it's just that, you know, nowadays they don't have to feel like prostitutes? Because I sure would if my spouse kept buying me things just so I'd put out.
- OasisG 16y agoYou're right, women DON'T have to feel like prostitutes because the options for women have greatly expanded. We no longer have to be confined to the "traditional" roles that encourage us to be passive doormats content to be totally dependent on our spouses. My point, anyway, is that the men in the WSJ article cheering this drivel on are often the same guys who don't want to assume the traditional provider role for men. They don't want a wife, they want a maid that "puts out".
- neworbit 16y ago...sounds like a nice daydream, but in real life, that would be pretty boring.
- neutronicus 16y ago>> My point, anyway, is that the men in the WSJ article cheering this drivel on are often the same guys who don't want to assume the traditional provider role for men. They don't want a wife, they want a maid that "puts out". << I could roll with "fuck it, let's neither of us clean". I want a wife, not a barracks inspector.
- Dylanlacey 16y agoWow, I don't know, the same thing the men are getting, an equal life-partner who they have a very strong emotional attachment to? There's the legal benefits for both partners, social recognition of your relationship, legal benefits for any children, possibly the sanction of your chosen religion... Sure, if what you want from a relationship is things, stuff, and to not have to work, more power to you... But I have no respect for you.
- OasisG 16y agoYou are missing my point. The comment isn't about me. It's about men who have these old-fashioned expectations of women, but don't reciprocate by fulfilling the traditional role for a man. That is, if I have to sit quietly, look pretty, and clean house, what am I getting in return? Not much these days.
- Dylanlacey 16y agoSorry, your original comment seemed to be about men in general, not the old fashioned type.
- pyre 16y agoI can only speak personally, but once you actually make the commitment, you personally feel more of a responsibility to work things out with your partner. Prior to marriage, you aren't necessarily 'tied down' and you could easily just break-up over something that could have been worked out if one (or both) of you decided not to be so pig-headed.
- nhangen 16y agoI don't know a single man that wouldn't do all of that given the opportunity.
- Psyonic 16y agoYou do realize that the reason men no longer do those things is precisely because women changed their role first? That said, you have a point. Outside of child-bearing (and even there...) marriage seems less and less useful. I don't see this as a bad thing, but YMMV.
- megamark16 16y agoThat's exactly what I do, and my wife and I agree that we have a pretty happy marriage :-)
- fefzero 16y ago"But the real reason [married people gain weight] is moral hazard, or the tendency to take more risks and behave more irresponsibly when there are no consequences." I'd never equated being overweight as behaving irresponsibly. If everyone thought this way, would we all be thinner? If my spouse can't nag me to lose weight (see #1), is there anything she could do to encourage it, or is it all on me?
- RickHull 16y agoFunny, I can't imagine being overweight as anything but irresponsible (mod specific health issues). And it is pretty much all on you. One thing that can be very helpful is to schedule exercise with other people (e.g. spouse). It's easier to get going with a group, it's more fun, and there is a social cost to canceling. You don't even have to do the same exercises -- just go to the gym or pool or park or whatever and do your thing. i.e. don't nag against bad activities, but support and encourage wholesome ones in their place.
- fefzero 16y agoIn regards to equating being overweight and being irresponsible, I think you're right. I just had never seen it that way, and hopefully this can start a paradigm shift for me. What this implies is that overeating/under-exercising should be taboo just like smoking cigarettes. These things aren't considered taboo by some people, but maybe that's the reason people aren't healthier.
- Psyonic 16y agoMore shaming... that's what overweight people need! See: http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2011/02/11/hello-i-am-fat http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2011/02/11/hello-i...
- jobrahms 16y agoI agree that in the end it's personal responsibility that determines whether you're overweight or healthy. But it has to be said that it has become more difficult to be thin (at least in western societies) given the ease with which most of us can obtain high energy/fat foods. Add to that the fact that most food producers have profit margins as their motivators instead of the population's health, and you can see why it's getting harder.
- hartror 16y agoI would group it all into one tip: Make an effort with your relationship. Like everything good in life it takes work to have a good relationship. If you make an effort to have a good relationship, applying thought and energy day to day, you will grow a healthy satisfying relationship.
- roc 16y agoI wouldn't stop there. In my experience, people who nag believe themselves to be "making an effort". Indeed, they think they're doing the right thing. Willingness to put in the effort is a good first start, but it's not enough. Many people clearly don't understand why certain things do or don't work. And there's as much to be learned from study and experience in the right way to work at a relationship as there is in anything else.
- hartror 16y agoI guess I simplified it a little to far. "Making an effort" also involves continually examining your own behavior, testing if it is constructive and helping the situation. This sort of self examination is a very useful tool and can be applied in all facets of life, social and career.
- khafra 16y ago"Make a DIY Science effort[1]" might have worked. [1] http://lesswrong.com/lw/3wh/science_do_it_yourself/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/3wh/science_do_it_yourself/
- Dylanlacey 16y agoThat's a good insite. I guess nagging is often somewhere that the maxim about doing shit (OK, less of a maxim, more of a statement: If shit needs doing... do it) needs to be applied. If you've not gone to the point of setting up areas of responsibility and some means of ensuring things get done, your choices are either do it yourself or nag about it. I think the tendency is often towards the latter, when it should be the former.
- 16y ago
- 3pt14159 16y agoComparative advantage is the name of the game. My parents have been doing that for years, even when my mom ends up with some manly work (tall house + lots of Christmas lights) and my dad ends up with some non-manly work. It works pretty well for them. They even optimized which kid helps them, I worked better with my mom (I was all about getting a list of chores and powering through them when I had time, and so is she), so I ended up working with her for the weekly chores. Shutting up and getting stuff done really does make one happy.
- marssaxman 16y agoMy wife and I just assign each job to whichever of us is less annoyed by having to do it, and somehow it all seems to balance out. She cleans the bathrooms and does the laundry, I sweep and vacuum and take out the trash, she makes the coffee in the morning and I turn off the lights at night. We certainly aim to be equal partners in our marriage, but instead of tallying everything up for some perfectly fair 50/50 division, we try to embrace our differences and specialize in what we're good at. Sometimes the breakdown does look disturbingly similar to the old traditional gender roles, but sometimes it really doesn't - I do the mending, for example, and she takes the car in for service. I'm sure we are both influenced by the traditional sexism of the societies we grew up in, but whatever the reasons for our choices, each of us pretty much gets to do what we think of as the easy or inconsequential chores while our partner tackles the nasty, time-consuming, or obnoxious ones.
- bzbarsky 16y ago> Sometimes the breakdown does look disturbingly similar to > the old traditional gender roles That seems somewhat inevitable. A lot of those gender roles are there precisely for comparative advantage and "do the thing that annoys you less" reasons. It just happens that statistically fewer men are annoyed by trash (e.g. they never get pregnant, so don't have months-long periods when they just can't deal with it at all), women are better at taking care of infants (e.g. can often feed them more easiy), and so forth. On average, etc. ;)
- 16y ago
- johngalt 16y agoThe secret to writing a linkbait title: reinforce stereotypes.
- deleted 16y ago[deleted]
- sp332 16y agoThere's a huge difference between being commanded to "Do the Dishes, Put Out, Don’t Talk So Much" by other people, versus doing these things on your own initiative as part of your relationship.
- smallblacksun 16y agoStereotypes exist for a reason.
- patrickgzill 16y agoMarriage is not "50/50" ... it is 100/100 ...
- kbatten 16y agoI'm pretty sure both of those evaluate to the same value.
- patrickgzill 16y agoSince the shorthand expression is for percentages, it implicitly expands to 50/100:50/100 (as 50% = 50/100) , or in more absolute terms, 0.5:0.5 . While 100/100 expands to 100/100:100/100 , or 1:1 of course. You might say the ratios are equivalent, but of course, you have ignored the units (if a relationship can have units).
- Natsu 16y agoYou either compared incomparable things to begin with or ended up with a scalar value when you divided them. Units can be divided, too. The slash in m/s is there for a reason. We'd do better to stick to the original point: that both partners should do their best rather than a half-ass job. A point I happen to agree with. Numbers just get in the way.
- patrickgzill 16y agoI admit it is innumerate slang to write "50/50" when really it means "(item/effort/task) is split 50% among 2 people" ... so given HN's general level of math ability, I should have phrased it better.
- deleted 16y ago[deleted]
- abalashov 16y agoThis is the first popular publication article I've seen that has given the very important cognitive overload aspect of nagging--and especially multi-pronged nagging litany, which seems to be the most common kind--the treatment it deserves: But when it comes to nagging reminders about what your spouse still has to do after a long day working for the man—take out the recycling, walk the dog, write a thank-you letter, defrost the chicken, fix the stereo—keep a lid on it. Economists talk about “information processing costs,” or the costs incurred from processing, absorbing and filtering information. When information processing costs get too high, we tend to become paralyzed.
- ojbyrne 16y agoThis doesn't actually take into account that the naggee can influence this. As a 12 year old, I remember finally getting so sick of my Dad nagging me to mow the lawn, that I started doing it before he had a chance to.
- cema 16y agoOther teenagers may rebel and refuse to do it. YMMV, and the "naggees", teens or not, definitely react in different ways.
- abalashov 16y agoAs long as mowing the lawn was +/- the only thing he was nagging you about, I could see how that could work.
- alextp 16y agoWith my mother this failed miserably. After I gave up on her nagging for someone to do the dishes, she started nagging that the dishes weren't coming out as clean as they should. After I started scrubbing a lot longer and harder she started nagging that the drain and the sink weren't always pristine. After I started cleaning the drain and sink every time I did the dishes she complained the the countertop got wet. After I started drying the countertop, then the kitchen table had crumbs over it. After that, I broke down and had a really bad fight with her, and got her to shut up and just clean whatever it was that bothered her so much in the kitchen.
- sin7 16y agoMarriage satisfaction = love making - fighting
- tertius 16y agoYou are in error sir. Marriage Satisfaction = Fighting (or Total Conflict) - Unresolved Conflict Conflict among other things brings you closer together. A couple who "fight" well will stay together.
- neworbit 16y agocitation needed
- mturmon 16y agoOne approximate reference is: http://www.amazon.com/Why-Marriages-Succeed-Fail-Yours/dp/0684802414/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1297822411&sr=8-1 http://www.amazon.com/Why-Marriages-Succeed-Fail-Yours/dp/06... Basically, the author did studies and interviews and found that some couples who fight frequently do still have a healthy marriage. This goes against some common-sense notions, of course. The important thing was that each thought the other one heard and understood their point of view. I can't recall if the feeling that progress was made to resolve the dispute mattered as well.
- sin7 16y agoI was a little off. I could not remember the actual heuristic. marital happiness = rate of lovemaking - rate of arguments Source: http://books.google.com/books?id=_0H8gwj4a1MC&pg=PA393&lpg=PA393&dq=marital+happiness+%3D+rate+of+love+making+-+rate+of+arguments&source=bl&ots=YBjgbRQ4WG&sig=wjZA_9JiAYMyj5Ar9YVCorWp9uk&hl=en&ei=w_pZTeD0F4e4sQPEn8yeCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&sqi=2&ved=0CBUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=_0H8gwj4a1MC&pg=PA393&#...
- tertius 16y agoI would define arguments differently than I would conflict (or resolved conflict) I guess. So that might have some truth but I believe it blurs the truth by making the reader or observer (of research) believe that arguing/conflict is bad.
- chopsueyar 16y agoDo the dishes. Buying a dishwasher was one of the best purchases for our relationship.
- Joakal 16y agoDon't forget to do the minimum that's expected at least. eg cleaning up after oneself. Putting dishes in the sink != cleaning up. Especially if they have time to do it.
- khafra 16y agoIt's amazing how much ROI you can get from things like that. I lived in utter peace, harmony, and sanitation with 2 roommates for a while, and the $90 we paid to have a maid come by every two weeks and clean the townhouse was money well spent.
- rmah 16y agoI posted a link to the book the WSJ article is based on earlier today: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2218045 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2218045
- yatacc 16y agoit seem ridiculous to tell married people they should have sex (with each other) lmao on the (with each other) emphasis :)
- ewoks 16y ago"5. Scheme And finally, start scheming, or thinking strategically. Being strategic might sound cold and calculating, but it’s something you probably already do with your spouse, whether you admit it or not. For example, if your friends invite you for a weekend away, no spouses, and you want to go, you naturally start thinking about how you can make this happen with minimal fuss, what you can offer your spouse in return, how to bring it up, when to bring it up, and what type of flowers to present as graft when you’re in the midst of bringing it up." - ugh..that sounds like a horrible situation to be in, wtf. Why would you get in such a place with a girl?
- narrator 16y agoI think American women forget that marriage is a team sport not a struggle for feudal dominance of one partner over the other. It seems with American women there is always a very precise accounting of slights, perceived or otherwise, that are used to demand payment in humiliation or suffering of the other. It's like they're on the "Women team", always thinking to themselves what the "Women team leaders" will think of them in every situation in their struggle against the multiple centuries of male patriarchy-- instead of being on the family team. They destroy relationships to please the contrived abstract ideals they've been indoctrinated to worship and fight against their desires for a relationship based on team work and mutual shared goals.
- Dylanlacey 16y agoIf you s/American women/some people often women/ , your statement will be more accurate.
- tertius 16y agoThose who do what you suggest should be taught in a loving relationship how negative their behaviour is. Even if the media encourages it. If there is dominance by either partner, the relationship will have difficulty staying healthy in the long run. As you say, family first. Both should view the other as having more importance than themselves. Not just one or neither.
- derefr 16y ago> If there is dominance by either partner, the relationship will have difficulty staying healthy in the long run. I think you mean, if there is dominance by both partners (i.e. one partner asserts dominance and the other resents them for it, or both partners vie for dominance), the relationship will have difficulty staying healthy in the long run. Well-defined D/s relationships, on the other hand, can be quite healthy.
- jscore 16y agoMaybe in America. Things work very differently in the rest of the world.
- sigzero 16y ago"A happy wife is a happy life."
- theorique 16y ago(warning - ZOMG TEH POTENTIAL SEXISM alert!) This sounds a lot like the advice to women from the Tom Leykis show: "Stay slim, Long hair, sex anytime, shut up!"
- kingkawn 16y agoHaving fun together rather than parsing out your problems is the key to success. Sometimes you have to do the Talk, but if it becomes the norm you're doomed.
- civilian 16y agoA lot of you are getting caught up in stereotypes. When I read this article I didn't see it as being specifically written for men or women-- shouldn't both parties be doing these things?
- tt 16y agoThere's a saying in Vietnamese culture that goes along the line of "Compatible husband and wife can empty the Pacific." I live by that.
- teyc 16y agoComparative advantage does not work in marriages. All hands on is much better. It is the same with family cookouts, spring cleaning, etc. More hands, less work, and there is less cognitive load whether work is being doled out fairly.
- brc 16y agoThe comments in that article are bizarre - there's a lot of frothing going on. Particularly from young, unmarried women who seem to have missed the point of the article. It's like they hate the idea of being a housewife so much they want to attack anything that even remotely suggests it. The problem in all this venting is that the advice is given to both sexes - it just discusses using comparative advantage to split up tasks, don't nag each other and slip between the sheets as much as possible. If you realise that the advice could equally apply to a gay couple you can see there actually isn't any gender bias in the article at all.
- RyanMcGreal 16y agoAnother perpetually useful perspective is the 2006 NY Times article on using animal training techniques to manage intramarital conflict: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/25/fashion/25love.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/25/fashion/25love.html?_r=1&#...
- webuiarchitect 16y agoYou can hardly call that a 'marriage'. Its just another adjustment you would do even with your roommate. I've been married for last 8 years and also have a kid. I feel, the best of marriage is lived when you share everything - talk out every feeling - help each other achieve the small dreams - LIVE together! Every relationship, even a mother-child/friends/brother-sister - they all have conflicts - and most of it because of expectations. Without 'expectations' there cannot exist a relation. The key is to achieve the balance - try to give enough space/freedom to each other so that both gets to do the things they enjoy the most - try to find your happiness in the same, if you can, or at least support it in some way. For household responsibilities, it should be equally and mutually shared. But 'don't talk so much' is definitely not the approach to avoid conflicts. We are not machines; the whole point of 'living' is to 'share'; and Humans Do Need to Share. What else do you need to marry for? Better stay bachelor, if you don't think you can shoulder the responsibility to 'share' and handle 'expectations'.
- eapen 16y agoMy wife's take: "huh! Didn't care much for the article coz though she makes some good points, I felt like it's putting it all on the woman!! Even if she says "spouse" several times, it's like she's saying spouse, but meaning wife... I have to agree with her sister about trying to put women back 50 years!! Not surprising you, meaning a guy, would like it though!! ;-D It has everything a husband would want his ideal wife to do!"