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It can't be overstated how many apps are absolutely dependent on working push notifications (all chat for example) and can't be replicated as websites. And that

It can't be overstated how many apps are absolutely dependent on working push notifications (all chat for example) and can't be replicated as websites. And that's not yet implemented for iOS so we're all at Apple's mercy until it is, which may never be.

jonny_eh 7y ago
There's no reason why a web app can't work with push notifications. Won't? ya. Can't? no.
Random_Person 7y ago
The sites I build at work have proper push notifications. This problem has already been solved.
- berns 7y ago
  How did you solve the lack of push notifications on iOS?
  - xyby 7y ago
    For iOS, can't you just wrap your web application in a thin native app layer that provides the push functionality?
    - berns 7y ago
      From the app store guidelines: 4.2 Minimum Functionality Your app should include features, content, and UI that elevate it beyond a repackaged website. If your app is not particularly useful, unique, or “app-like,” it doesn’t belong on the App Store.
      - cma 7y ago
        Perhaps the main distinguishing app-like thing is distracting notifications.
      - SlowRobotAhead 7y ago
        Right! I ran in to this when I wanted our app to “portal” to the website and just move Bluetooth data along. Apple thought about this and doesn’t like it.
      - noir_lord 7y ago
        4.3 We'll continue to get away with this until the EU makes us stop.
      - nicoburns 7y ago
        Would push notification support not be exactly the kind of feature that would qualify for this rule? In practice there are hundreds of apps like this on the app store.
    - avip 7y ago
      You can, you just can't publish it on the appstore.
      - phreack 7y ago
        How do you distribute it in that case? Outside of enterprise apps, which are not allowed to be public.
        hoyer_io 7y ago
        Sorry but I think I don't understand your question.
      - hoyer_io 7y ago
        If you use a native wrapper and load a webview inside you can publish it in the AppStore.
    - hoyer_io 7y ago
      Yes you can and we are exactly doing this since quite a while. Actually a lot of companies do this.
    - the_gipsy 7y ago
      Yes you can and there tons of apps that do just that. The important part is that they go through the app store, so that apple has complete control of what goes through.
  - psaux 7y ago
    They probably embedded the browser in a client.
  - pentae 7y ago
    Short answer: He didn't. You cannot do it without your app being in the App Store.
  - heedlessly3 7y ago
    for iOS you can have a work around. The users using the web based app in safari, then whenever a notification needs to be sent, twilio api will send a SMS message to alert the user. Of course it will only send an sms message if the user allows it and enters the mobile number.
- rubyn00bie 7y ago
  I will never enable push notifications from websites. This problem has not been solved. It also doesn't hold across devices or if the browser isn't open.
  - the_gipsy 7y ago
    Why not? You do, for apps, right? App PNs also don't "hold" across devices. You don't need to have the browser "open", whatever that means. BTW there are tons of apps that do push notifications wrong. There are many apps which keep sending you PNs after you log out or switch accounts. This can be really sensitive content (e.g. chat apps).
    - the_gipsy 7y ago
      Replying to myself, here is a NSFW example: https://www.reddit.com/r/tifu/comments/e8ux6j/tifu_by_letting_my_sister_use_the_reddit_app_on/ https://www.reddit.com/r/tifu/comments/e8ux6j/tifu_by_lettin...
jammygit 7y ago
I can’t stand push notifications, I disable them all except for a couple (like signal). They are usually only part of the app to manipulate you into using it constantly
- dmix 7y ago
  What's your point? Do you think you represent most people? Can you not just turn it off? Notifications have fine tuned controls on both iOS and Android with schedule Do Not Disturb features and varying levels of priority (iOS has 3 tiers). Plus per-app controls to disable them from annoying apps, which in newer versions of iOS prompt you before they turn on, making them opt-in. It's essential for communication apps (texting, email) and useful for breaking news or a simple highlight of big news on WSJ/NYT on your activity feed, so you don't need to open either app to stay on top of big events if you're a news junkie like me. I'd personally go as far as saying push-notifications + the activity feed is very underrated feature of smart phones and has become a core part of people's day-to-day lives (which plenty of technologies can't say).
  - npo9 7y ago
    > Do you think you represent most people? I've seen poor push notification quality increase uninstall and churn rates. I think the lesson is that many people are quickly annoyed with push notifications.
    - zapzupnz 7y ago
      I think that's inaccurate. There are plenty of push notifications that don't annoy people, that are often the primary basis for how people interact with certain apps — Facebook, Messenger, WhatsApp, Slack, Discord, etc. Let's not assume that all push notifications are cynical attempts to get people engaged with the app or to push DLC. For things like mail, messaging, and plenty of other online services, push notifications are not just an important interface to the app; they can be the interface.
  - buboard 7y ago
    Its true that tons of news sites ask for permission just to spam you, or outright sell notifications to advertisers. I think the web notif channel has already been abused beyond repair. It may be time to redo the concept from scratch Killer feature for email: add an email header that turns an email to notification. Then email apps would push the notification to the user, bypassing apple’s block. Websites already have the user’s email, so no need for more subscriptions. If gmail implemented this, it might push for adoption
Klathmon 7y ago
While the web notification story on android is much better than on iOS, it still has it's own share of issues. The biggest one that i've run into is how exact timing of notifications is difficult. Sometimes notifications can be delayed for hours and there's not really much you can do to fix it, other times they will arrive minutes later. I previously worked on a PWA which had to be converted into a thinly wrapped webview for Android because we needed notifications to pop within seconds of their scheduled time, and we just couldn't achieve that with web notifications at the time.
anderspitman 7y ago
Honest question: is there some reason you can't use standard web tech for push notifications? ie polling, WebSockets, etc?
- DevoAKA 7y ago
  You can use polling or sockets when the browser is open; the problem is showing those notifications on the phone's lock screen or when you're in another app.
  - anderspitman 7y ago
    Oh duh. And it sounds like iOS doesn't support that for PWAs yet?
    - phreack 7y ago
      Correct, many websites say that such support is "coming soon" but I've been hearing that for years now.
      - anderspitman 7y ago
        Sometimes I wonder if Apple wouldn't support web apps at all if they could get away with it. A fully functioning PWA could essentially sidestep the app store for a huge class of applications. The incentives really just aren't aligned.
- stevenwoo 7y ago
  I was under the impression that under memory pressure all of the tabs in every mobile browser (Firefox/Safari/Edge) I have ever used is unloaded by iOS.
  - ficklepickle 7y ago
    There is an edge mobile browser?
pennaMan 7y ago
Apple will never give in and implement webpush on mobile safari because that would affect their precious app store. How will they extort developers then? That's also the reason mobile safari is so limited in other features.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- scarface74 7y ago
  You mean extort developers who are mostly publishing free apps backed by services or advertising? How many apps do you use on a daily basis that you paid money for, find notifications useful, and would have been suitable as a web app?
- skybrian 7y ago
  Apple changes their mind fairly often, so I wouldn't say never. And in general, predictions based on incentives are often good bets but they are less reliable than many people pretend.
- willyt 7y ago
  Is it possible that they haven't figured out how to sandbox the little bit of code that handles the notification from the rest of the webpage? Maybe this is solved already by the webpush standard but some websites are a ridiculously overcomplicated hot mess of javascript ads which make my phone heat up, I don't want them waking up my phone all the time and draining the battery.
sflicht 7y ago
Even if you think your app depends on push notifications, your customers don't necessarily want them. I would bet that in 98% of the cases you have in mind, I would be perfectly happy to use the functionality without push notifications. (For example, "all chat". Even if your app is capable of chatting with me, I doubt I actually want it to.)
- ryanwaggoner 7y ago
  They were likely referring to chat apps. Good luck building a messaging or chat app without notifications. Yes, apps over-use notifications for marketing and engagement metrics just like email has been overused. They’re still remarkably useful for a large swath of other use cases, and downright necessary for many others. If you don’t like them, don’t enable them for a given app. Easy.
- iamaelephant 7y ago
  Building a chat app without notifications is a good way to get exactly zero users.

jonny_eh 7y ago

There's no reason why a web app can't work with push notifications. Won't? ya. Can't? no.

Random_Person 7y ago

The sites I build at work have proper push notifications. This problem has already been solved.

berns 7y ago
How did you solve the lack of push notifications on iOS?
- xyby 7y ago
  For iOS, can't you just wrap your web application in a thin native app layer that provides the push functionality?
  - berns 7y ago
    From the app store guidelines: 4.2 Minimum Functionality Your app should include features, content, and UI that elevate it beyond a repackaged website. If your app is not particularly useful, unique, or “app-like,” it doesn’t belong on the App Store.
    - cma 7y ago
      Perhaps the main distinguishing app-like thing is distracting notifications.
    - SlowRobotAhead 7y ago
      Right! I ran in to this when I wanted our app to “portal” to the website and just move Bluetooth data along. Apple thought about this and doesn’t like it.
    - noir_lord 7y ago
      4.3 We'll continue to get away with this until the EU makes us stop.
    - nicoburns 7y ago
      Would push notification support not be exactly the kind of feature that would qualify for this rule? In practice there are hundreds of apps like this on the app store.
  - avip 7y ago
    You can, you just can't publish it on the appstore.
    - phreack 7y ago
      How do you distribute it in that case? Outside of enterprise apps, which are not allowed to be public.
      - hoyer_io 7y ago
        Sorry but I think I don't understand your question.
    - hoyer_io 7y ago
      If you use a native wrapper and load a webview inside you can publish it in the AppStore.
  - hoyer_io 7y ago
    Yes you can and we are exactly doing this since quite a while. Actually a lot of companies do this.
  - the_gipsy 7y ago
    Yes you can and there tons of apps that do just that. The important part is that they go through the app store, so that apple has complete control of what goes through.
- psaux 7y ago
  They probably embedded the browser in a client.
- pentae 7y ago
  Short answer: He didn't. You cannot do it without your app being in the App Store.
- heedlessly3 7y ago
  for iOS you can have a work around. The users using the web based app in safari, then whenever a notification needs to be sent, twilio api will send a SMS message to alert the user. Of course it will only send an sms message if the user allows it and enters the mobile number.
rubyn00bie 7y ago
I will never enable push notifications from websites. This problem has not been solved. It also doesn't hold across devices or if the browser isn't open.
- the_gipsy 7y ago
  Why not? You do, for apps, right? App PNs also don't "hold" across devices. You don't need to have the browser "open", whatever that means. BTW there are tons of apps that do push notifications wrong. There are many apps which keep sending you PNs after you log out or switch accounts. This can be really sensitive content (e.g. chat apps).
  - the_gipsy 7y ago
    Replying to myself, here is a NSFW example: https://www.reddit.com/r/tifu/comments/e8ux6j/tifu_by_letting_my_sister_use_the_reddit_app_on/ https://www.reddit.com/r/tifu/comments/e8ux6j/tifu_by_lettin...

jammygit 7y ago

I can’t stand push notifications, I disable them all except for a couple (like signal). They are usually only part of the app to manipulate you into using it constantly

dmix 7y ago
What's your point? Do you think you represent most people? Can you not just turn it off? Notifications have fine tuned controls on both iOS and Android with schedule Do Not Disturb features and varying levels of priority (iOS has 3 tiers). Plus per-app controls to disable them from annoying apps, which in newer versions of iOS prompt you before they turn on, making them opt-in. It's essential for communication apps (texting, email) and useful for breaking news or a simple highlight of big news on WSJ/NYT on your activity feed, so you don't need to open either app to stay on top of big events if you're a news junkie like me. I'd personally go as far as saying push-notifications + the activity feed is very underrated feature of smart phones and has become a core part of people's day-to-day lives (which plenty of technologies can't say).
- npo9 7y ago
  > Do you think you represent most people? I've seen poor push notification quality increase uninstall and churn rates. I think the lesson is that many people are quickly annoyed with push notifications.
  - zapzupnz 7y ago
    I think that's inaccurate. There are plenty of push notifications that don't annoy people, that are often the primary basis for how people interact with certain apps — Facebook, Messenger, WhatsApp, Slack, Discord, etc. Let's not assume that all push notifications are cynical attempts to get people engaged with the app or to push DLC. For things like mail, messaging, and plenty of other online services, push notifications are not just an important interface to the app; they can be the interface.
- buboard 7y ago
  Its true that tons of news sites ask for permission just to spam you, or outright sell notifications to advertisers. I think the web notif channel has already been abused beyond repair. It may be time to redo the concept from scratch Killer feature for email: add an email header that turns an email to notification. Then email apps would push the notification to the user, bypassing apple’s block. Websites already have the user’s email, so no need for more subscriptions. If gmail implemented this, it might push for adoption

Klathmon 7y ago

While the web notification story on android is much better than on iOS, it still has it's own share of issues. The biggest one that i've run into is how exact timing of notifications is difficult. Sometimes notifications can be delayed for hours and there's not really much you can do to fix it, other times they will arrive minutes later. I previously worked on a PWA which had to be converted into a thinly wrapped webview for Android because we needed notifications to pop within seconds of their scheduled time, and we just couldn't achieve that with web notifications at the time.

anderspitman 7y ago

Honest question: is there some reason you can't use standard web tech for push notifications? ie polling, WebSockets, etc?

DevoAKA 7y ago
You can use polling or sockets when the browser is open; the problem is showing those notifications on the phone's lock screen or when you're in another app.
- anderspitman 7y ago
  Oh duh. And it sounds like iOS doesn't support that for PWAs yet?
  - phreack 7y ago
    Correct, many websites say that such support is "coming soon" but I've been hearing that for years now.
    - anderspitman 7y ago
      Sometimes I wonder if Apple wouldn't support web apps at all if they could get away with it. A fully functioning PWA could essentially sidestep the app store for a huge class of applications. The incentives really just aren't aligned.
stevenwoo 7y ago
I was under the impression that under memory pressure all of the tabs in every mobile browser (Firefox/Safari/Edge) I have ever used is unloaded by iOS.
- ficklepickle 7y ago
  There is an edge mobile browser?

pennaMan 7y ago

Apple will never give in and implement webpush on mobile safari because that would affect their precious app store. How will they extort developers then? That's also the reason mobile safari is so limited in other features.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
scarface74 7y ago
You mean extort developers who are mostly publishing free apps backed by services or advertising? How many apps do you use on a daily basis that you paid money for, find notifications useful, and would have been suitable as a web app?
skybrian 7y ago
Apple changes their mind fairly often, so I wouldn't say never. And in general, predictions based on incentives are often good bets but they are less reliable than many people pretend.
willyt 7y ago
Is it possible that they haven't figured out how to sandbox the little bit of code that handles the notification from the rest of the webpage? Maybe this is solved already by the webpush standard but some websites are a ridiculously overcomplicated hot mess of javascript ads which make my phone heat up, I don't want them waking up my phone all the time and draining the battery.

sflicht 7y ago

Even if you think your app depends on push notifications, your customers don't necessarily want them. I would bet that in 98% of the cases you have in mind, I would be perfectly happy to use the functionality without push notifications. (For example, "all chat". Even if your app is capable of chatting with me, I doubt I actually want it to.)

ryanwaggoner 7y ago
They were likely referring to chat apps. Good luck building a messaging or chat app without notifications. Yes, apps over-use notifications for marketing and engagement metrics just like email has been overused. They’re still remarkably useful for a large swath of other use cases, and downright necessary for many others. If you don’t like them, don’t enable them for a given app. Easy.
iamaelephant 7y ago
Building a chat app without notifications is a good way to get exactly zero users.