4 ms·

Short of MitM'ing all VoIP traffic, how could this be proactively enforced? It's far more practical to focus proactive enforcement where actual phone lines are

Short of MitM'ing all VoIP traffic, how could this be proactively enforced? It's far more practical to focus proactive enforcement where actual phone lines are used, which is exclusively in the U.S.

tlb 7y ago
Scam call centers employ 1000s of people. You just need one of them to talk and collect evidence. The companies pay poorly and have high turnover, so they shouldn’t be hard to find.
- diebeforei485 7y ago
  That is not proactive enforcement. Also, it has been done before, and is clearly too slow - they may arrest one or two people, while the other thousands can easily relocate their laptops and headsets. The most effective place to stop it is at the "border", and that is what DOJ is doing here.
- ubadair 7y ago
  Source? I searched a bit, and didn't find any evidence of scam call centers with more than "dozens" of employees. I'm skeptical.
  - RoadieRoller 7y ago
    78 arrested [1] 700 suspected in call center scam [2] 21 arrested [3] 15 arrested [4] https://www.news18.com/news/india/78-arrested-in-mp-for-involvement-in-call-centre-scam-targeting-us-citizens-2184015.html https://www.news18.com/news/india/78-arrested-in-mp-for-invo... https://www.reuters.com/article/us-india-fraud-usa-arrests-idUSKBN17A05V https://www.reuters.com/article/us-india-fraud-usa-arrests-i... https://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/telefraud-scam-us-court-awards-21-indians-up-to-20-years-in-prison/story-xlGnDb9O6HUub4jJKGp9eP.html https://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/telefraud-scam-us-... https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/politics-and-nation/15-people-indicted-in-massive-call-centre-scam-in-us/articleshow/65727833.cms https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/politics-and-natio...
AnimalMuppet 7y ago
Enforce valid caller ID on calls coming from VoIP.
- dvtrn 7y ago
  How do you enforce that with how disposable DIDs are? It is trivially easy to acquire a block of numbers from any number of sources with easily falsifiable information, connect them to a SIP application to robocall/robotext victims using easily falsifiable CID data and disappear just as trivially. Programmatic voice via SIP trunking only makes this worse-not critiquing services like Twilio, Plivo or Telnyx, just highlighting one of the unfortunate risks the technology available to us enables. CID enforcement is a grand idea but I have no clue how you'd actually accomplish it.
  - ianwalter 7y ago
    Passing regulation requiring audit logs sounds like a good first step.
  - toomuchtodo 7y ago
    SHAKEN/STIR https://www.zdnet.com/article/at-t-comcast-successfully-test-shakenstir-protocol-for-fighting-robocalls/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/at-t-comcast-successfully-test... https://transnexus.com/whitepapers/understanding-stir-shaken/ https://transnexus.com/whitepapers/understanding-stir-shaken... Doesn’t solve the problem entirely, but makes it easier to identify and blacklist robocall operations using heuristics, rate limiting, etc.
- nostrebored 7y ago
  What does this look like to you? The CNAM presented on a SIP call should be authenticated against what?
  - AnimalMuppet 7y ago
    How about the number? If I'm making a SIP call on, say, Alianza, shouldn't what I present as my number for Caller ID match what Alianza thinks my number to receive calls is? Or, if I'm a large organization, shouldn't it at least be one of the numbers registered to my organization? I may be able to spoof the name. The number? Not so much.
Scoundreller 7y ago
The big telecoms get call traffic from a manageably small number of interconnect companies/organizations. They probably can’t figure out the initial source, but they can figure out which interconnect it’s coming from. They should call them at their 24/7 NOC and tell them to trace it back a later to trace back another layer to trace it back another layer. Or else they’re getting shutdown in 24hrs. Same as AT&T would do if Cogent was sending them spoofed scam traffic. The problem is that the telecoms get paid for these 4th string interconnects by the minute.
- dawnerd 7y ago
  And some of the telcos now offer scam call blocking as a premium add on to customers.
bubblethink 7y ago
You should be able to follow the money in this case. The firms that are selling the voip numbers are getting paid.

Short of MitM'ing all VoIP traffic, how could this be proactively enforced? It's far more practical to focus proactive enforcement where actual phone lines are used, which is exclusively in the U.S.

tlb 7y ago

Scam call centers employ 1000s of people. You just need one of them to talk and collect evidence. The companies pay poorly and have high turnover, so they shouldn’t be hard to find.

diebeforei485 7y ago
That is not proactive enforcement. Also, it has been done before, and is clearly too slow - they may arrest one or two people, while the other thousands can easily relocate their laptops and headsets. The most effective place to stop it is at the "border", and that is what DOJ is doing here.
ubadair 7y ago
Source? I searched a bit, and didn't find any evidence of scam call centers with more than "dozens" of employees. I'm skeptical.
- RoadieRoller 7y ago
  78 arrested [1] 700 suspected in call center scam [2] 21 arrested [3] 15 arrested [4] https://www.news18.com/news/india/78-arrested-in-mp-for-involvement-in-call-centre-scam-targeting-us-citizens-2184015.html https://www.news18.com/news/india/78-arrested-in-mp-for-invo... https://www.reuters.com/article/us-india-fraud-usa-arrests-idUSKBN17A05V https://www.reuters.com/article/us-india-fraud-usa-arrests-i... https://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/telefraud-scam-us-court-awards-21-indians-up-to-20-years-in-prison/story-xlGnDb9O6HUub4jJKGp9eP.html https://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/telefraud-scam-us-... https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/politics-and-nation/15-people-indicted-in-massive-call-centre-scam-in-us/articleshow/65727833.cms https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/politics-and-natio...

AnimalMuppet 7y ago

Enforce valid caller ID on calls coming from VoIP.

dvtrn 7y ago
How do you enforce that with how disposable DIDs are? It is trivially easy to acquire a block of numbers from any number of sources with easily falsifiable information, connect them to a SIP application to robocall/robotext victims using easily falsifiable CID data and disappear just as trivially. Programmatic voice via SIP trunking only makes this worse-not critiquing services like Twilio, Plivo or Telnyx, just highlighting one of the unfortunate risks the technology available to us enables. CID enforcement is a grand idea but I have no clue how you'd actually accomplish it.
- ianwalter 7y ago
  Passing regulation requiring audit logs sounds like a good first step.
- toomuchtodo 7y ago
  SHAKEN/STIR https://www.zdnet.com/article/at-t-comcast-successfully-test-shakenstir-protocol-for-fighting-robocalls/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/at-t-comcast-successfully-test... https://transnexus.com/whitepapers/understanding-stir-shaken/ https://transnexus.com/whitepapers/understanding-stir-shaken... Doesn’t solve the problem entirely, but makes it easier to identify and blacklist robocall operations using heuristics, rate limiting, etc.
nostrebored 7y ago
What does this look like to you? The CNAM presented on a SIP call should be authenticated against what?
- AnimalMuppet 7y ago
  How about the number? If I'm making a SIP call on, say, Alianza, shouldn't what I present as my number for Caller ID match what Alianza thinks my number to receive calls is? Or, if I'm a large organization, shouldn't it at least be one of the numbers registered to my organization? I may be able to spoof the name. The number? Not so much.

Scoundreller 7y ago

The big telecoms get call traffic from a manageably small number of interconnect companies/organizations. They probably can’t figure out the initial source, but they can figure out which interconnect it’s coming from. They should call them at their 24/7 NOC and tell them to trace it back a later to trace back another layer to trace it back another layer. Or else they’re getting shutdown in 24hrs. Same as AT&T would do if Cogent was sending them spoofed scam traffic. The problem is that the telecoms get paid for these 4th string interconnects by the minute.

dawnerd 7y ago
And some of the telcos now offer scam call blocking as a premium add on to customers.

bubblethink 7y ago

You should be able to follow the money in this case. The firms that are selling the voip numbers are getting paid.