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The DOJ press release [1] mentions that a majority of these calls are coming from India. Does anyone know what the Indian government has done to try to fix the

The DOJ press release [1] mentions that a majority of these calls are coming from India. Does anyone know what the Indian government has done to try to fix the problem? I would assume enforcement should start there. [1] https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/department-justice-files-actions-stop-telecom-carriers-who-facilitated-hundreds-millions https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/department-justice-files-acti...

Causality1 7y ago
Since the US hasn't done anything like threaten them with sanctions they don't have an incentive to stop their citizens from stealing from foreigners.
diebeforei485 7y ago
Short of MitM'ing all VoIP traffic, how could this be proactively enforced? It's far more practical to focus proactive enforcement where actual phone lines are used, which is exclusively in the U.S.
- tlb 7y ago
  Scam call centers employ 1000s of people. You just need one of them to talk and collect evidence. The companies pay poorly and have high turnover, so they shouldn’t be hard to find.
  - diebeforei485 7y ago
    That is not proactive enforcement. Also, it has been done before, and is clearly too slow - they may arrest one or two people, while the other thousands can easily relocate their laptops and headsets. The most effective place to stop it is at the "border", and that is what DOJ is doing here.
  - ubadair 7y ago
    Source? I searched a bit, and didn't find any evidence of scam call centers with more than "dozens" of employees. I'm skeptical.
    - RoadieRoller 7y ago
      78 arrested [1] 700 suspected in call center scam [2] 21 arrested [3] 15 arrested [4] https://www.news18.com/news/india/78-arrested-in-mp-for-involvement-in-call-centre-scam-targeting-us-citizens-2184015.html https://www.news18.com/news/india/78-arrested-in-mp-for-invo... https://www.reuters.com/article/us-india-fraud-usa-arrests-idUSKBN17A05V https://www.reuters.com/article/us-india-fraud-usa-arrests-i... https://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/telefraud-scam-us-court-awards-21-indians-up-to-20-years-in-prison/story-xlGnDb9O6HUub4jJKGp9eP.html https://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/telefraud-scam-us-... https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/politics-and-nation/15-people-indicted-in-massive-call-centre-scam-in-us/articleshow/65727833.cms https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/politics-and-natio...
- AnimalMuppet 7y ago
  Enforce valid caller ID on calls coming from VoIP.
  - dvtrn 7y ago
    How do you enforce that with how disposable DIDs are? It is trivially easy to acquire a block of numbers from any number of sources with easily falsifiable information, connect them to a SIP application to robocall/robotext victims using easily falsifiable CID data and disappear just as trivially. Programmatic voice via SIP trunking only makes this worse-not critiquing services like Twilio, Plivo or Telnyx, just highlighting one of the unfortunate risks the technology available to us enables. CID enforcement is a grand idea but I have no clue how you'd actually accomplish it.
    - ianwalter 7y ago
      Passing regulation requiring audit logs sounds like a good first step.
    - toomuchtodo 7y ago
      SHAKEN/STIR https://www.zdnet.com/article/at-t-comcast-successfully-test-shakenstir-protocol-for-fighting-robocalls/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/at-t-comcast-successfully-test... https://transnexus.com/whitepapers/understanding-stir-shaken/ https://transnexus.com/whitepapers/understanding-stir-shaken... Doesn’t solve the problem entirely, but makes it easier to identify and blacklist robocall operations using heuristics, rate limiting, etc.
  - nostrebored 7y ago
    What does this look like to you? The CNAM presented on a SIP call should be authenticated against what?
    - AnimalMuppet 7y ago
      How about the number? If I'm making a SIP call on, say, Alianza, shouldn't what I present as my number for Caller ID match what Alianza thinks my number to receive calls is? Or, if I'm a large organization, shouldn't it at least be one of the numbers registered to my organization? I may be able to spoof the name. The number? Not so much.
- Scoundreller 7y ago
  The big telecoms get call traffic from a manageably small number of interconnect companies/organizations. They probably can’t figure out the initial source, but they can figure out which interconnect it’s coming from. They should call them at their 24/7 NOC and tell them to trace it back a later to trace back another layer to trace it back another layer. Or else they’re getting shutdown in 24hrs. Same as AT&T would do if Cogent was sending them spoofed scam traffic. The problem is that the telecoms get paid for these 4th string interconnects by the minute.
  - dawnerd 7y ago
    And some of the telcos now offer scam call blocking as a premium add on to customers.
- bubblethink 7y ago
  You should be able to follow the money in this case. The firms that are selling the voip numbers are getting paid.
greglindahl 7y ago
A quick search for [india call center scam arrest] came up with a bunch of examples.
hristov 7y ago
Why? The US has the prime responsibility for enforcing US laws. And the US also has plenty of control over the calls, because they have to go through US equipment before reaching the phone of a person residing in the US. I mean if they even took the small step to ensure that these calls do not spoof the caller ID, and appear as coming from India, this would decrease a lot of the scams.
- kube-system 7y ago
  I'm not familiar with Indian law, but I am guessing that fraud is illegal there.
  - onetimemanytime 7y ago
    True and USA has a gazillion ways to force other states to crack down on stuff that hurts USA. Fraud is illegal, but in a way, this is hurting USA and bringing money to India (see Mexico and drugs)
  - greglindahl 7y ago
    As I pointed out a couple of hours before your comment, there's certainly plenty of news articles about the Indian police arresting people for call center scams -- often in cooperation with international authorities -- search [india call center scam arrest]
    - kube-system 7y ago
      I'm aware that they do. I'm suggesting that the answer to "why?" India might want to address the issue is because their own legal system also prohibits fraud, and is not simply a concession to foreign interests.
      - greglindahl 7y ago
        Ah. That meaning of your comment wasn't obvious to me at all.
- 7y ago
ShorsHammer 7y ago
Indian justice system is a joke. Not sure what you could hope for there. I don't see why this can't be fixed client-side? The vast majority of people don't need to receive calls from overseas, problem solved. As a former shiftworker who was on call I begged my telco to only allow Australian numbers to my phone, they couldn't do it, despite trying to escalate the issue it was fruitless, all day while I was sleeping I would get phone calls from the Seychelles, Mexico, etc. It's utterly frustrating to deal with.

Causality1 7y ago

Since the US hasn't done anything like threaten them with sanctions they don't have an incentive to stop their citizens from stealing from foreigners.

diebeforei485 7y ago

Short of MitM'ing all VoIP traffic, how could this be proactively enforced? It's far more practical to focus proactive enforcement where actual phone lines are used, which is exclusively in the U.S.

tlb 7y ago
Scam call centers employ 1000s of people. You just need one of them to talk and collect evidence. The companies pay poorly and have high turnover, so they shouldn’t be hard to find.
- diebeforei485 7y ago
  That is not proactive enforcement. Also, it has been done before, and is clearly too slow - they may arrest one or two people, while the other thousands can easily relocate their laptops and headsets. The most effective place to stop it is at the "border", and that is what DOJ is doing here.
- ubadair 7y ago
  Source? I searched a bit, and didn't find any evidence of scam call centers with more than "dozens" of employees. I'm skeptical.
  - RoadieRoller 7y ago
    78 arrested [1] 700 suspected in call center scam [2] 21 arrested [3] 15 arrested [4] https://www.news18.com/news/india/78-arrested-in-mp-for-involvement-in-call-centre-scam-targeting-us-citizens-2184015.html https://www.news18.com/news/india/78-arrested-in-mp-for-invo... https://www.reuters.com/article/us-india-fraud-usa-arrests-idUSKBN17A05V https://www.reuters.com/article/us-india-fraud-usa-arrests-i... https://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/telefraud-scam-us-court-awards-21-indians-up-to-20-years-in-prison/story-xlGnDb9O6HUub4jJKGp9eP.html https://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/telefraud-scam-us-... https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/politics-and-nation/15-people-indicted-in-massive-call-centre-scam-in-us/articleshow/65727833.cms https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/politics-and-natio...
AnimalMuppet 7y ago
Enforce valid caller ID on calls coming from VoIP.
- dvtrn 7y ago
  How do you enforce that with how disposable DIDs are? It is trivially easy to acquire a block of numbers from any number of sources with easily falsifiable information, connect them to a SIP application to robocall/robotext victims using easily falsifiable CID data and disappear just as trivially. Programmatic voice via SIP trunking only makes this worse-not critiquing services like Twilio, Plivo or Telnyx, just highlighting one of the unfortunate risks the technology available to us enables. CID enforcement is a grand idea but I have no clue how you'd actually accomplish it.
  - ianwalter 7y ago
    Passing regulation requiring audit logs sounds like a good first step.
  - toomuchtodo 7y ago
    SHAKEN/STIR https://www.zdnet.com/article/at-t-comcast-successfully-test-shakenstir-protocol-for-fighting-robocalls/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/at-t-comcast-successfully-test... https://transnexus.com/whitepapers/understanding-stir-shaken/ https://transnexus.com/whitepapers/understanding-stir-shaken... Doesn’t solve the problem entirely, but makes it easier to identify and blacklist robocall operations using heuristics, rate limiting, etc.
- nostrebored 7y ago
  What does this look like to you? The CNAM presented on a SIP call should be authenticated against what?
  - AnimalMuppet 7y ago
    How about the number? If I'm making a SIP call on, say, Alianza, shouldn't what I present as my number for Caller ID match what Alianza thinks my number to receive calls is? Or, if I'm a large organization, shouldn't it at least be one of the numbers registered to my organization? I may be able to spoof the name. The number? Not so much.
Scoundreller 7y ago
The big telecoms get call traffic from a manageably small number of interconnect companies/organizations. They probably can’t figure out the initial source, but they can figure out which interconnect it’s coming from. They should call them at their 24/7 NOC and tell them to trace it back a later to trace back another layer to trace it back another layer. Or else they’re getting shutdown in 24hrs. Same as AT&T would do if Cogent was sending them spoofed scam traffic. The problem is that the telecoms get paid for these 4th string interconnects by the minute.
- dawnerd 7y ago
  And some of the telcos now offer scam call blocking as a premium add on to customers.
bubblethink 7y ago
You should be able to follow the money in this case. The firms that are selling the voip numbers are getting paid.

greglindahl 7y ago

A quick search for [india call center scam arrest] came up with a bunch of examples.

hristov 7y ago

Why? The US has the prime responsibility for enforcing US laws. And the US also has plenty of control over the calls, because they have to go through US equipment before reaching the phone of a person residing in the US. I mean if they even took the small step to ensure that these calls do not spoof the caller ID, and appear as coming from India, this would decrease a lot of the scams.

kube-system 7y ago
I'm not familiar with Indian law, but I am guessing that fraud is illegal there.
- onetimemanytime 7y ago
  True and USA has a gazillion ways to force other states to crack down on stuff that hurts USA. Fraud is illegal, but in a way, this is hurting USA and bringing money to India (see Mexico and drugs)
- greglindahl 7y ago
  As I pointed out a couple of hours before your comment, there's certainly plenty of news articles about the Indian police arresting people for call center scams -- often in cooperation with international authorities -- search [india call center scam arrest]
  - kube-system 7y ago
    I'm aware that they do. I'm suggesting that the answer to "why?" India might want to address the issue is because their own legal system also prohibits fraud, and is not simply a concession to foreign interests.
    - greglindahl 7y ago
      Ah. That meaning of your comment wasn't obvious to me at all.
7y ago

ShorsHammer 7y ago

Indian justice system is a joke. Not sure what you could hope for there. I don't see why this can't be fixed client-side? The vast majority of people don't need to receive calls from overseas, problem solved. As a former shiftworker who was on call I begged my telco to only allow Australian numbers to my phone, they couldn't do it, despite trying to escalate the issue it was fruitless, all day while I was sleeping I would get phone calls from the Seychelles, Mexico, etc. It's utterly frustrating to deal with.