7 ms·

Housing is an enormous tax, and rent seeking just transfers money from the poor to the rich. Rather than giving everyone money, I would prefer to see a market s

Housing is an enormous tax, and rent seeking just transfers money from the poor to the rich. Rather than giving everyone money, I would prefer to see a market solution where we greatly lower the costs for things at the bottom of Maslow’s pyramid.

tomnipotent 7y ago
This. I grew up on welfare, and I can't tell you how often my mom would talk about section 8 housing and how that would change everything. Having to move was my parents greatest nightmare - they would barely afford day-to-day things, nonetheless first/last/deposit.
- ben_w 7y ago
  As a landlord [0], I totally agree that housing is overpriced and society can and should make it affordable for all. [0] not American, so I had to Google “section 8 housing”
- rb808 7y ago
  > section 8 housing and how that would change everything Sorry can you clarify - do you mean she wanted to be eligible? Or was eligible but couldn't find a suitable place. I've always wondered if buying a property to rent to section 8 tenants is a good idea or not. (investment wise or charity wise)
  - tomnipotent 7y ago
    Section 8 has a years-long waiting list, and it's basically a lottery for the vouchers when I was growing up.
  - opportune 7y ago
    Relative did this and found it was not a good move. Usually the types of places that rent to section 8 tenants have very high cap ratios assuming you collect rent every month... just think for a bit why other investors leave those on the table considering how financially advantageous that would be. Ok I’ll spoil it a bit: first, you still have to do maintenance on these places like fixing the roof, plumbing, etc. and it doesn’t matter if you bought it for pennies, it still has to be livable to rent. Second, section 8 doesn’t cover everything (at least for some) so your tenants will often not make rent: the decision whether to continually take losses on renting or to evict a family (possibly making them homeless) is up to you. And among poor people you will have higher rates of things like hoarding or drugs so your likelihood of dealing with that is high (approaching near certainty as number of properties grows). He ended up selling off his real estate “empire” in less than 5 years after being threatened with a gun, evicting a family, and having one house get entirely gutted one night (including wires and toilets)
    - imtringued 7y ago
      I am constantly thinking about ways to find a satisfying solution to these problems. I feel like China is one of the few countries that actually managed to do it. It's not just about having an export surplus. Before they could export anything they still had to build the factories and get workers to move there. I think the answer is to find a way to drag up a limited group of people as high as possible and then use the gains from those people to drag up the rest to a medium level of wealth. The conventional theory of trickle down economics completely ignores the second step. It's just an excuse to not do anything. From what I can tell changing an existing community gradually is possible but it will take much longer than creating an entirely new but also well designed community. Find (or slowly create) a highly successful city and try to build another city that follows the same success model. This is probably a good answer for many developing countries but may not be enough in an already developed country.
    - Shorel 7y ago
      Ohh, la estrategia del caracol.
wonderwonder 7y ago
It appears that we have plenty of money to subsidize farming for both ethanol and tariffs, seems like we could go a step further and work on greatly reducing the cost of food. We would need to do so in such a way that all of the funds are not just going to massive corporations that just swallow the funds, something we don't really seem to be able to do currently.
- Ididntdothis 7y ago
  We have subsidize the right food though. Otherwise obesity and associated diseases will keep growing.
  - nessus42 7y ago
    Maybe I'm just ignorant, but I find it hard to believe that the cost of healthy food is a terrible problem these days with poverty. (In the US.) Housing, heating, clothing, education, living in a community that fosters wellbeing, etc., sure! But food? Rice and beans is one of the healthiest things you can eat, and it's very cheap. Okay, well rice and beans might bore you to death, but you won't starve. Add some frozen vegetables and fruit and I should think that most people would do just fine nutritionally. Of course, a lot of people might not know this, and that could be a problem.
    - ska 7y ago
      It's not just knowledge, but availability. Food deserts are a real thing, as are crap apartments with dysfunctional appliances (freezers can save you a bunch of money, but only if they work reliably), etc.
      - nessus42 7y ago
        I was responding to the claim that subsidies to grow the right kind of food, rather than corn, etc., might help. I mentioned the issues of housing and community, etc., that are required to actually obtain and cook food. I don't see how subsidies to farmers to grow healthier foods are going to solve the problems that you mention. I.e., I'm not denying that people living in poverty don't end up malnourished, but that would seem to stem from lack of good housing and community, not with healthy food itself being too expensive.
mjevans 7y ago
For all 'basic needs' there should guaranteed competition in the market. Either the government directly (or more likely) low / not profit companies that get created by prospective business leaders with government backed loans for plans believed to benefit the public good. This would be much less crazy than it sounds if we also required open financial records and publicly registered contracts for all businesses.
SkyBelow 7y ago
I find mention of Maslow's pyramid in these sorts of discussions interesting because people seem to forget a few specific needs ranked on it that become extremely hard to handle because the purchase of such is often illegal and the production of such cannot be made interpersonal nor automated and scaled like any other need can be. It is so controversial that if you go check the wikipedia article, they don't even rank that specific need on the level that Maslow and there is a dedicated controversy section.
- yesenadam 7y ago
  >I find mention of Maslow's pyramid in these sorts of discussions interesting because people seem to forget a few specific needs ranked on it So why don't you remind us specifically which needs you're talking about? Then it becomes "that specific need".. Strange you didn't mention what it is. Why?
  - SkyBelow 7y ago
    Why? Why does someone allude to a point without saying it. Perhaps because even mentioning it brings with it a certain level of controversy and thus speaking about it indirectly allows more focus on the topic at hand. Also, while there is one in particular, there are other needs listed that are often not given the full consideration (though the others rank higher of the hierarchy, and thus if the discussion is only on ensuring people have the lowest level met, the other needs aren't within scope).
    - war1025 7y ago
      Your comments are vague to the point of being useless. I even went to the bother of trying to look up what it is you'd be referencing, and came up blank. I think you are severely overestimating the likelihood that anyone knows what you are talking about.
      - anchpop 7y ago
        I'm fairly sure they're talking about sex or intimacy, which Maslow had at the base of his hierarchy of needs
chillacy 7y ago
> a market solution where we greatly lower the costs for things at the bottom of Maslow’s pyramid. With the exception of housing and healthcare, which are supply side restricted, aren't most consumer goods already pretty fierce markets?
claudeganon 7y ago
> I would prefer to see a market solution where we greatly lower the costs... This doesn’t work and Europe already figured out social democracy. Trying to reinvent the wheel with the “more Capitalism” approach is why poverty persists like it does in America.
asdff 7y ago
How do you lower the costs when the market is being successfully cornered? The people striking down housing density bills are the people who stand to profit the most from their actions. The market can't be trusted to be benevolent and leave money on the table. There needs to be a large scale public working class housing build, taking profit margin out of the equation. The market hasn't built new working class housing stock since the roll out of suburbia nearly a century ago, and can't be expected to do so anytime soon if it stands to amass profit from the status quo.

tomnipotent 7y ago

This. I grew up on welfare, and I can't tell you how often my mom would talk about section 8 housing and how that would change everything. Having to move was my parents greatest nightmare - they would barely afford day-to-day things, nonetheless first/last/deposit.

ben_w 7y ago
As a landlord [0], I totally agree that housing is overpriced and society can and should make it affordable for all. [0] not American, so I had to Google “section 8 housing”
rb808 7y ago
> section 8 housing and how that would change everything Sorry can you clarify - do you mean she wanted to be eligible? Or was eligible but couldn't find a suitable place. I've always wondered if buying a property to rent to section 8 tenants is a good idea or not. (investment wise or charity wise)
- tomnipotent 7y ago
  Section 8 has a years-long waiting list, and it's basically a lottery for the vouchers when I was growing up.
- opportune 7y ago
  Relative did this and found it was not a good move. Usually the types of places that rent to section 8 tenants have very high cap ratios assuming you collect rent every month... just think for a bit why other investors leave those on the table considering how financially advantageous that would be. Ok I’ll spoil it a bit: first, you still have to do maintenance on these places like fixing the roof, plumbing, etc. and it doesn’t matter if you bought it for pennies, it still has to be livable to rent. Second, section 8 doesn’t cover everything (at least for some) so your tenants will often not make rent: the decision whether to continually take losses on renting or to evict a family (possibly making them homeless) is up to you. And among poor people you will have higher rates of things like hoarding or drugs so your likelihood of dealing with that is high (approaching near certainty as number of properties grows). He ended up selling off his real estate “empire” in less than 5 years after being threatened with a gun, evicting a family, and having one house get entirely gutted one night (including wires and toilets)
  - imtringued 7y ago
    I am constantly thinking about ways to find a satisfying solution to these problems. I feel like China is one of the few countries that actually managed to do it. It's not just about having an export surplus. Before they could export anything they still had to build the factories and get workers to move there. I think the answer is to find a way to drag up a limited group of people as high as possible and then use the gains from those people to drag up the rest to a medium level of wealth. The conventional theory of trickle down economics completely ignores the second step. It's just an excuse to not do anything. From what I can tell changing an existing community gradually is possible but it will take much longer than creating an entirely new but also well designed community. Find (or slowly create) a highly successful city and try to build another city that follows the same success model. This is probably a good answer for many developing countries but may not be enough in an already developed country.
  - Shorel 7y ago
    Ohh, la estrategia del caracol.

wonderwonder 7y ago

It appears that we have plenty of money to subsidize farming for both ethanol and tariffs, seems like we could go a step further and work on greatly reducing the cost of food. We would need to do so in such a way that all of the funds are not just going to massive corporations that just swallow the funds, something we don't really seem to be able to do currently.

Ididntdothis 7y ago
We have subsidize the right food though. Otherwise obesity and associated diseases will keep growing.
- nessus42 7y ago
  Maybe I'm just ignorant, but I find it hard to believe that the cost of healthy food is a terrible problem these days with poverty. (In the US.) Housing, heating, clothing, education, living in a community that fosters wellbeing, etc., sure! But food? Rice and beans is one of the healthiest things you can eat, and it's very cheap. Okay, well rice and beans might bore you to death, but you won't starve. Add some frozen vegetables and fruit and I should think that most people would do just fine nutritionally. Of course, a lot of people might not know this, and that could be a problem.
  - ska 7y ago
    It's not just knowledge, but availability. Food deserts are a real thing, as are crap apartments with dysfunctional appliances (freezers can save you a bunch of money, but only if they work reliably), etc.
    - nessus42 7y ago
      I was responding to the claim that subsidies to grow the right kind of food, rather than corn, etc., might help. I mentioned the issues of housing and community, etc., that are required to actually obtain and cook food. I don't see how subsidies to farmers to grow healthier foods are going to solve the problems that you mention. I.e., I'm not denying that people living in poverty don't end up malnourished, but that would seem to stem from lack of good housing and community, not with healthy food itself being too expensive.

mjevans 7y ago

For all 'basic needs' there should guaranteed competition in the market. Either the government directly (or more likely) low / not profit companies that get created by prospective business leaders with government backed loans for plans believed to benefit the public good. This would be much less crazy than it sounds if we also required open financial records and publicly registered contracts for all businesses.

SkyBelow 7y ago

I find mention of Maslow's pyramid in these sorts of discussions interesting because people seem to forget a few specific needs ranked on it that become extremely hard to handle because the purchase of such is often illegal and the production of such cannot be made interpersonal nor automated and scaled like any other need can be. It is so controversial that if you go check the wikipedia article, they don't even rank that specific need on the level that Maslow and there is a dedicated controversy section.

yesenadam 7y ago
>I find mention of Maslow's pyramid in these sorts of discussions interesting because people seem to forget a few specific needs ranked on it So why don't you remind us specifically which needs you're talking about? Then it becomes "that specific need".. Strange you didn't mention what it is. Why?
- SkyBelow 7y ago
  Why? Why does someone allude to a point without saying it. Perhaps because even mentioning it brings with it a certain level of controversy and thus speaking about it indirectly allows more focus on the topic at hand. Also, while there is one in particular, there are other needs listed that are often not given the full consideration (though the others rank higher of the hierarchy, and thus if the discussion is only on ensuring people have the lowest level met, the other needs aren't within scope).
  - war1025 7y ago
    Your comments are vague to the point of being useless. I even went to the bother of trying to look up what it is you'd be referencing, and came up blank. I think you are severely overestimating the likelihood that anyone knows what you are talking about.
    - anchpop 7y ago
      I'm fairly sure they're talking about sex or intimacy, which Maslow had at the base of his hierarchy of needs

chillacy 7y ago

> a market solution where we greatly lower the costs for things at the bottom of Maslow’s pyramid. With the exception of housing and healthcare, which are supply side restricted, aren't most consumer goods already pretty fierce markets?

claudeganon 7y ago

> I would prefer to see a market solution where we greatly lower the costs... This doesn’t work and Europe already figured out social democracy. Trying to reinvent the wheel with the “more Capitalism” approach is why poverty persists like it does in America.

asdff 7y ago

How do you lower the costs when the market is being successfully cornered? The people striking down housing density bills are the people who stand to profit the most from their actions. The market can't be trusted to be benevolent and leave money on the table. There needs to be a large scale public working class housing build, taking profit margin out of the equation. The market hasn't built new working class housing stock since the roll out of suburbia nearly a century ago, and can't be expected to do so anytime soon if it stands to amass profit from the status quo.