6 ms·

Are many Ring units sold outside of the US? I see them advertised as a way to combat this "porch pirate" thing. But to me, as someone living in the UK, the idea

Are many Ring units sold outside of the US? I see them advertised as a way to combat this "porch pirate" thing. But to me, as someone living in the UK, the idea of a delivery person leaving a package on my doorstep for someone to steal is mad. If I'm not in I expect another delivery attempt or for the package to be taken to the secure local* depot where I can pick it up. If they decide to leave it outside my door and it gets stolen, I fully expect (and will get) another one delivered at no cost to me, other than the time penalty. Why is this even a thing? Is this a new thing that Amazon created with their delivery strategy and now you also get to buy the solution from them?! And if it's just a security camera watching my property/car, then a dumb one sounds fine and cheaper. Not to mention it'll actually look like a security camera which is arguably more valuable as a deterrent. * rarely that local.

simmonmt 7y ago
Deliveries left unsecured on a doorstop is a common practice in the US, typically found in low-crime residential areas. It was by no means invented by Amazon -- it's been a thing for a long time.
- cheeze 7y ago
  I feel like Europeans often forget just how big the USA is. I live in a major metro. Just like in EU, it would be ludicrous to leave a package on someones doorstep. But if you live in a rural area, things are completely different. Which from my understanding is the same as EU for the most part.
  - bart_spoon 7y ago
    Its pretty common in non-rural areas in the US. I live in a suburban area and its normal. Some of my coworkers who live downtown have had issues with porch pirates, so I'm assuming they have porch drop off as well.
  - sib 7y ago
    In the past 20 years, I've lived across the major metro areas of Seattle, Silicon Valley, and now Los Angeles. in all places, it's been common practice for delivery companies to leave packages outside unless the shipper has specified otherwise for a high-value or theft-prone item. Over literally thousands of deliveries during that time, the number that have disappeared mysteriously is under 1%. In fact, more have not been delivered at all (i.e., fraud on the part of the delivery person) than have been stolen.
    - thinkingemote 7y ago
      1% is pretty high theft rate. 1% means if you get a package every week, once in 2 years one will be stolen. Or it means in a city of 100,000 1000 people will have thefts of their packages.
      - thinkling 7y ago
        "Around the country, more than 1.7 million packages are stolen or go missing every day" (no indication what % this is) https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/02/nyregion/online-shopping-package-theft.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/02/nyregion/online-shopping-...
      - sib 7y ago
        A different way of looking at it is, with ~5 packages that were likely stolen out of 2,000 or so delivered, that's about a 1/4% loss rate, which is much lower than the typical retail store suffers from shoplifting. So, it's pretty much priced into their margins already.
- tharne 7y ago
  This is very common even in higher density suburbs. Unless an area is known to have a crime issue, it's standard practice in the U.S. to leave the package on the front steps. I've lived in the burbs for the vast majority of my life and have never had a package stolen. Despite common media portrayals, the U.S. is mostly a very nice place to live.
  - ohmyblock 7y ago
    If you have a good income
xxs 7y ago
Indeed, pretty much for most Europe would be: not signed -> not delivered. Either they call before hand (if the delivery company has the phone number or they can fetch it), have another attempt to deliver, or leave the parcel in a self servicing pick up area, dropping a note in the mailbox with the code to open.
- thewebcount 7y ago
  So they don't leave it on your doorstep, but they put the code in your box? That sounds even better for thieves! Get the code from the box, go to the self-service area, type in the code, and walk away without any suspicion, since that's what everyone else there does!
  - pbhjpbhj 7y ago
    In UK, and most of Europe AFAIK, the "mailbox" is a hole that goes through to inside the house. The thief would probably have to break in to the house to get the code. Porch pirates are specifically avoiding breaking-and-entering.
  - bigger_cheese 7y ago
    Here in Australia if I'm not home and miss the attempted delivery of a package a card will be left in my mailbox. The card has a barcode on it and will tell me where to pick the package up from, typically it is from my local post office. When I bring the card to post office they scan the barcode then send someone out back to fetch my package they ask me for some ID and check the name and address on the id with the name + address on the package. No fuss no drama. The idea of leaving package on doorstep seems bizarre.
  - Barrin92 7y ago
    >So they don't leave it on your doorstep, but they put the code in your box? That sounds even better for thieves! In most of Europe a mailbox looks like this: https://imgur.com/ppSrO1W https://imgur.com/ppSrO1W
orion_uranus 7y ago
I don't really understand it either. Just seems like a way to preserve costs. Only thing that would come to mind is that the US is less densely populated compared to Europe, making delivering them to neighbors/local depot a lot more time consuming
- m-watson 7y ago
  I don't know if the density part is really relevant. One the whole, they are comparable. Country to US it varies, and States (US) to other countries it varies even more [0]. I have lived in several very densely populated cities and they all still do porch drop off. I think this may just fall down to a cultural difference than anything else. [0] https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/Hifamb4LTgQooDBYj/worth-remembering-when-comparing-the-us-to-europe https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/Hifamb4LTgQooDBYj/worth-reme...
Lio 7y ago
Personally I don't even want a smart TV with a camera or an Alexa in my house but a friend was just proudly telling me about his new Ring doorbell and I know one neighbour with one. (both in the UK).
bmilleare 7y ago
The benefit of something like Ring is that criminals will know what they are and that somebody has very likely just been alerted to their presence. I speak from experience when I say they tend not to care about traditional 'dumb' cameras as, generally, nobody is going to be watching them until after the act.
tw04 7y ago
So do you just always have someone at home? Or do your packages always go to the secure local depot? Neither is really a great option in the US because: most families have both adults working. Other than a handful of cities, people are so spread out that having enough secure depot's in the right locations would be astronomically expensive.
- atomi 7y ago
  > enough secure depot's ...like a Post Office?
  - tw04 7y ago
    You solved it! Except the post office won't accept Fedex or UPS packages, and if you try to have a package delivered to one, UPS and Fedex will refuse the shipment. https://www.quora.com/Will-FedEx-deliver-my-package-to-my-local-post-office-address-that-I-provided https://www.quora.com/Will-FedEx-deliver-my-package-to-my-lo...
    - js2 7y ago
      You can redirect FedEx packages to any local Walgreens up to midnight before the delivery day. UPS has something similar with CVS. For me this is even more convenient than USPS due to more locations and longer hours. It works even for signature-required packages. https://www.walgreens.com/topic/promotion/fedex.jsp https://www.walgreens.com/topic/promotion/fedex.jsp https://www.cvs.com/content/ups?linkId=77387667 https://www.cvs.com/content/ups?linkId=77387667
      - tw04 7y ago
        That's cool and something I didn't know about, but I'd still argue it does nothing to solve porch pirates in 90% of the country. CVS and Walgreens are non-existent in rural America outside of large towns/cities.
        greglindahl 7y ago
JohnFen 7y ago
Most delivery companies in my part of the US allow you to specify what will happen if you're not there when they attempt delivery. You usually have options like "try again later", "deliver to my neighbor", "let me pick it up", and "leave it on my doorstep". Most people prefer to have it left on their doorstep because the other options are a bit of a hassle.
zweep 7y ago
American suburbs are relatively high trust environments (and used to be much more so). It’s quickly fading though.
AdmiralGinge 7y ago
>If I'm not in I expect another delivery attempt or for the package to be taken to the secure local* depot where I can pick it up. It's not the lack of localness that's the problem for me in the UK, it's more that most depots are only open 9-5 when people are at work. If you have anything resembling a long commute (particularly by public transport) then you can get really screwed over, especially if you can't drive for whatever reason you pretty much have to take half a day off to collect your package in many cases.
- stronglikedan 7y ago
  I'm in the US, and I have a UPS depot that I can walk to if I miss a delivery with signature required, and that depot is open from 10AM-9PM seven days a week. The absolute maddening part is that, instead of taking undelivered packages to the depot at the end of each day, they wait until the next business day! I try to avoid using UPS when I can, since they are the most user hostile delivery service in my area. I have more of a chance of getting a package on time when they leave it on my porch unattended.
  - bradknowles 7y ago
    This is part of why FedEx has been doing deals with companies like Walgreens, where some locations are open 24x7. This is in addition to their FedEx Office (was Kinko's) locations, some of which are open 24x7. Amazon has "Amazon Lockers" that are available in many places in the US, many of which are open extended hours, and some of which are open 24x7. These are not the only options. Even the USPS has Post Office Boxes, and many US Post Offices have external spaces where the PO Boxes are accessible 24x7.
starvingbear 7y ago
Crassus!
zeveb 7y ago
> But to me, as someone living in the UK, the idea of a delivery person leaving a package on my doorstep for someone to steal is mad. I think it's true that across most of the U.S. if it weren't safe to leave a package at one's house then people would be up in arms demanding that the police do their jobs. ISTR that the U.K. crime rate is about 2½ times that of the U.S.
boring_twenties 7y ago
> secure local* depot where I can pick it up. This was such a terrible experience the 2 times in my life that I've been forced to do it, that I still remember both of them vividly almost 15 years later. You can be sure I'll never do that again regardless of the purchase or price. There is nothing for sale anywhere on this earth that would be worth it. > If they decide to leave it outside my door and it gets stolen, I fully expect (and will get) another one delivered at no cost to me, other than the time penalty. That's exactly what happened the one and only time I've had a package stolen from my porch. It was an external hard drive worth around $100. Amazon sent me a new one immediately. I even tried getting the serial number out of them (at the request of the police) and they were like "haha, no. Here's free one day shipping on your replacement, and we consider this matter closed."
barrkel 7y ago
About 20% of our Amazon deliveries are left on our doorstep, usually behind our bin or otherwise obscured somewhat from the road. I live in Enfield.
- bradknowles 7y ago
  > 90% here in Austin, TX.
jonathangary 7y ago
If you live in San Francisco, SealedPackages.com solves this exact problem

simmonmt 7y ago

Deliveries left unsecured on a doorstop is a common practice in the US, typically found in low-crime residential areas. It was by no means invented by Amazon -- it's been a thing for a long time.

cheeze 7y ago
I feel like Europeans often forget just how big the USA is. I live in a major metro. Just like in EU, it would be ludicrous to leave a package on someones doorstep. But if you live in a rural area, things are completely different. Which from my understanding is the same as EU for the most part.
- bart_spoon 7y ago
  Its pretty common in non-rural areas in the US. I live in a suburban area and its normal. Some of my coworkers who live downtown have had issues with porch pirates, so I'm assuming they have porch drop off as well.
- sib 7y ago
  In the past 20 years, I've lived across the major metro areas of Seattle, Silicon Valley, and now Los Angeles. in all places, it's been common practice for delivery companies to leave packages outside unless the shipper has specified otherwise for a high-value or theft-prone item. Over literally thousands of deliveries during that time, the number that have disappeared mysteriously is under 1%. In fact, more have not been delivered at all (i.e., fraud on the part of the delivery person) than have been stolen.
  - thinkingemote 7y ago
    1% is pretty high theft rate. 1% means if you get a package every week, once in 2 years one will be stolen. Or it means in a city of 100,000 1000 people will have thefts of their packages.
    - thinkling 7y ago
      "Around the country, more than 1.7 million packages are stolen or go missing every day" (no indication what % this is) https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/02/nyregion/online-shopping-package-theft.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/02/nyregion/online-shopping-...
    - sib 7y ago
      A different way of looking at it is, with ~5 packages that were likely stolen out of 2,000 or so delivered, that's about a 1/4% loss rate, which is much lower than the typical retail store suffers from shoplifting. So, it's pretty much priced into their margins already.
tharne 7y ago
This is very common even in higher density suburbs. Unless an area is known to have a crime issue, it's standard practice in the U.S. to leave the package on the front steps. I've lived in the burbs for the vast majority of my life and have never had a package stolen. Despite common media portrayals, the U.S. is mostly a very nice place to live.
- ohmyblock 7y ago
  If you have a good income

xxs 7y ago

Indeed, pretty much for most Europe would be: not signed -> not delivered. Either they call before hand (if the delivery company has the phone number or they can fetch it), have another attempt to deliver, or leave the parcel in a self servicing pick up area, dropping a note in the mailbox with the code to open.

thewebcount 7y ago
So they don't leave it on your doorstep, but they put the code in your box? That sounds even better for thieves! Get the code from the box, go to the self-service area, type in the code, and walk away without any suspicion, since that's what everyone else there does!
- pbhjpbhj 7y ago
  In UK, and most of Europe AFAIK, the "mailbox" is a hole that goes through to inside the house. The thief would probably have to break in to the house to get the code. Porch pirates are specifically avoiding breaking-and-entering.
- bigger_cheese 7y ago
  Here in Australia if I'm not home and miss the attempted delivery of a package a card will be left in my mailbox. The card has a barcode on it and will tell me where to pick the package up from, typically it is from my local post office. When I bring the card to post office they scan the barcode then send someone out back to fetch my package they ask me for some ID and check the name and address on the id with the name + address on the package. No fuss no drama. The idea of leaving package on doorstep seems bizarre.
- Barrin92 7y ago
  >So they don't leave it on your doorstep, but they put the code in your box? That sounds even better for thieves! In most of Europe a mailbox looks like this: https://imgur.com/ppSrO1W https://imgur.com/ppSrO1W

orion_uranus 7y ago

I don't really understand it either. Just seems like a way to preserve costs. Only thing that would come to mind is that the US is less densely populated compared to Europe, making delivering them to neighbors/local depot a lot more time consuming

m-watson 7y ago
I don't know if the density part is really relevant. One the whole, they are comparable. Country to US it varies, and States (US) to other countries it varies even more [0]. I have lived in several very densely populated cities and they all still do porch drop off. I think this may just fall down to a cultural difference than anything else. [0] https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/Hifamb4LTgQooDBYj/worth-remembering-when-comparing-the-us-to-europe https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/Hifamb4LTgQooDBYj/worth-reme...

Lio 7y ago

Personally I don't even want a smart TV with a camera or an Alexa in my house but a friend was just proudly telling me about his new Ring doorbell and I know one neighbour with one. (both in the UK).

bmilleare 7y ago

The benefit of something like Ring is that criminals will know what they are and that somebody has very likely just been alerted to their presence. I speak from experience when I say they tend not to care about traditional 'dumb' cameras as, generally, nobody is going to be watching them until after the act.

tw04 7y ago

So do you just always have someone at home? Or do your packages always go to the secure local depot? Neither is really a great option in the US because: most families have both adults working. Other than a handful of cities, people are so spread out that having enough secure depot's in the right locations would be astronomically expensive.

atomi 7y ago
> enough secure depot's ...like a Post Office?
- tw04 7y ago
  You solved it! Except the post office won't accept Fedex or UPS packages, and if you try to have a package delivered to one, UPS and Fedex will refuse the shipment. https://www.quora.com/Will-FedEx-deliver-my-package-to-my-local-post-office-address-that-I-provided https://www.quora.com/Will-FedEx-deliver-my-package-to-my-lo...
  - js2 7y ago
    You can redirect FedEx packages to any local Walgreens up to midnight before the delivery day. UPS has something similar with CVS. For me this is even more convenient than USPS due to more locations and longer hours. It works even for signature-required packages. https://www.walgreens.com/topic/promotion/fedex.jsp https://www.walgreens.com/topic/promotion/fedex.jsp https://www.cvs.com/content/ups?linkId=77387667 https://www.cvs.com/content/ups?linkId=77387667
    - tw04 7y ago
      That's cool and something I didn't know about, but I'd still argue it does nothing to solve porch pirates in 90% of the country. CVS and Walgreens are non-existent in rural America outside of large towns/cities.
      - greglindahl 7y ago

JohnFen 7y ago

Most delivery companies in my part of the US allow you to specify what will happen if you're not there when they attempt delivery. You usually have options like "try again later", "deliver to my neighbor", "let me pick it up", and "leave it on my doorstep". Most people prefer to have it left on their doorstep because the other options are a bit of a hassle.

zweep 7y ago

American suburbs are relatively high trust environments (and used to be much more so). It’s quickly fading though.

AdmiralGinge 7y ago

>If I'm not in I expect another delivery attempt or for the package to be taken to the secure local* depot where I can pick it up. It's not the lack of localness that's the problem for me in the UK, it's more that most depots are only open 9-5 when people are at work. If you have anything resembling a long commute (particularly by public transport) then you can get really screwed over, especially if you can't drive for whatever reason you pretty much have to take half a day off to collect your package in many cases.

stronglikedan 7y ago
I'm in the US, and I have a UPS depot that I can walk to if I miss a delivery with signature required, and that depot is open from 10AM-9PM seven days a week. The absolute maddening part is that, instead of taking undelivered packages to the depot at the end of each day, they wait until the next business day! I try to avoid using UPS when I can, since they are the most user hostile delivery service in my area. I have more of a chance of getting a package on time when they leave it on my porch unattended.
- bradknowles 7y ago
  This is part of why FedEx has been doing deals with companies like Walgreens, where some locations are open 24x7. This is in addition to their FedEx Office (was Kinko's) locations, some of which are open 24x7. Amazon has "Amazon Lockers" that are available in many places in the US, many of which are open extended hours, and some of which are open 24x7. These are not the only options. Even the USPS has Post Office Boxes, and many US Post Offices have external spaces where the PO Boxes are accessible 24x7.

starvingbear 7y ago

Crassus!

zeveb 7y ago

> But to me, as someone living in the UK, the idea of a delivery person leaving a package on my doorstep for someone to steal is mad. I think it's true that across most of the U.S. if it weren't safe to leave a package at one's house then people would be up in arms demanding that the police do their jobs. ISTR that the U.K. crime rate is about 2½ times that of the U.S.

boring_twenties 7y ago

> secure local* depot where I can pick it up. This was such a terrible experience the 2 times in my life that I've been forced to do it, that I still remember both of them vividly almost 15 years later. You can be sure I'll never do that again regardless of the purchase or price. There is nothing for sale anywhere on this earth that would be worth it. > If they decide to leave it outside my door and it gets stolen, I fully expect (and will get) another one delivered at no cost to me, other than the time penalty. That's exactly what happened the one and only time I've had a package stolen from my porch. It was an external hard drive worth around $100. Amazon sent me a new one immediately. I even tried getting the serial number out of them (at the request of the police) and they were like "haha, no. Here's free one day shipping on your replacement, and we consider this matter closed."

barrkel 7y ago

About 20% of our Amazon deliveries are left on our doorstep, usually behind our bin or otherwise obscured somewhat from the road. I live in Enfield.

bradknowles 7y ago
> 90% here in Austin, TX.

jonathangary 7y ago

If you live in San Francisco, SealedPackages.com solves this exact problem