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Why Lobste.rs Is Better Than Hacker News
- smoyer 7y agoThe invite-only nature will only benefit the site while it's small. It will either stay small or suffer the same users as other sites. The down-vote with reason feature is nice.
- nkelly31 7y agoI'll be interested to see how they leverage the user tree. I'm no expert in social media bots, but it seems like the user invitation tree could be important to identifying not just networks of bots that are generating low-value content and trying to amplify certain viewpoints, but the people inviting those bots into the network in the first place.
- self_awareness 7y agoIt was already used when dealing with voting rings (resulting in termination of accounts)
- nkelly31 7y agoVery cool! Did they do a write-up? I haven't been following lobste.rs closely and some quick google searching returned a lot of unrelated content.
- nickpsecurity 7y agoThere's an example of the admin, pushcx, eliminating a voting ring in this part of the moderation log: https://lobste.rs/moderations/page/4 https://lobste.rs/moderations/page/4 He's really good at that. I can't recall if he disclosed his methods. Most don't to avoid giving the people doing it a chance to adapt. Let them stay at low-effort attempts. :)
- pushcx 7y agoNobody's ever asked, but so far it's all the obvious stuff like the invite tree, IPs, user-agents, activity limited to their own stories, etc.
- ColinWright 7y agoI think the point here is that if someone starts spouting rubbish, the person who invited them loses "face" - it reflects badly on them. So invitations aren't hard to come by, provided you have a reasonable reputation for saying things that are sensible. This is a throwback to an early age when you would never talk to someone in social circles without first being introduced. If someone turned out to be a "bad sort" then the mutual acquaintance who had introduced you had proven themselves not to be reliable, and so you don't trust any future introduction from them. The scene in "Pride and Prejudice" where Mr Collins goes up to talk to Mr Darcy without having been introduced is a classic example of breaking these social norms, and the loss of reputation that ensues. There is a lot of current research on "reputation" and "trust", and the "invitation tree" is one very simple way to provide some of the benefits.
- marcinzm 7y agoDoesn't that just cause a massive filter bubble effect?
- dorian-graph 7y agoI’m a somewhat regular user over there and I regularly see a healthy debate/differing views
- ColinWright 7y agoThat's the flip side, and part of the reason research on the question is active, ongoing, and occasionally contentious. It's a choice to make, and a mechanism to employ. One alternative is the HN model wherein everyone can contribute and you have no idea of their experience, expertise, or trustworthiness. It's a choice, and it has consequences. One thing I'd like to see added to HN is the ability for me to assign trustworthiness scores to other users, and then filter based on that. There are people here who I've come to know will provide value, even if their views are unpalatable, and their karma is low. There are others who have reasonably high karma, and yet who I know add little of value (for me!) to conversations. Again, that would risk a filter-bubble, but it would reduce the number of comments I need to wade through before getting to those of value -- all from my personal view, of course, and your judgements would be different.
- emmelaich 7y agoReminds me of mod_virgule, which implemented trust metrics. Used on advogato, which is/was a blogging site rather than a news aggregator. https://web.archive.org/web/20170327172245/http://advogato.org/proj/mod_virgule/ https://web.archive.org/web/20170327172245/http://advogato.o...
- pushcx 7y ago(I'm the Lobsters admin.) Users and mods have used it to detect sockpuppets and voting rings. We've had almost zero trouble with bots because of the invite system. It's not obvious from browsing the site (though of course it's visible in the source: https://github.com/lobsters/lobsters/blob/791b21f60a2e952cabe5187559c8fb7724b7b8aa/app/models/user.rb#L283 https://github.com/lobsters/lobsters/blob/791b21f60a2e952cab...) but users can lose the ability to invite if they reach a net score of -5 (rare, they have be a bad actor right out of the gate) or from a mod removing it (also rare, they typically have to invite several problem users or run a voting ring).
- fortran77 7y agoIf someone on the top of a user-invite tree gets "cancelled" will all the people he referred and their descendants be cancelled, too?
- Cyclone_ 7y agoPerhaps their itent is to always maintain quality over growing big?
- slantaclaus 7y agoPuti.ns
- lightedman 7y ago"It’s invite only." So it's a clique. I thought we grew past these after high school.
- aleph- 7y agoHow so, it's a method for dealing with spammers/marketers and the like who would post low effort or off topic content regularly.
- blocked_again 7y agoIts true that this system blocks spammers and marketers. At the same time it also prevents a large amount of genuine users who want to take part in the dicussions because its hard to get an invite. So overall the system does more harm than good.
- rrix2 7y agoThere are like five people in this thread offering invites, it's not that hard.
- axaxs 7y agoSo that renders the invite system about as useful as a captcha. What's the point again?
- rrix2 7y agohttps://lobste.rs/about#invitations https://lobste.rs/about#invitations > Invitations are used as a mechanism for spam-control, to slow registrations to a pace we can acculturate and to encourage users to be nice, not to make the Lobsters userbase an elite club.
- Carpetsmoker 7y agoI got an invite by just asking nicely on IRC with some details about myself.
- ringzero 7y agoAh, the what.cd strategy. Minus the exclusive content.
- sondr3 7y agoMan, I miss what.cd, not just for the content but for the obsessive users they had and the collections they made. Want all albums with a shoe as the cover? They have a collection for that. Want good music to start a journey into classical music in the 1800s? They have a collection for that. I mostly used it to discover great music, and the void that what.cd left has yet to be filled for me.
- Jaygles 7y agoI don't think I'm ever going to get over what.cd getting taken down. After it disappeared my new music discovery has plummeted.
- rowathray 7y agoEver heard of Apple Music? Spotify? Youtube?
- NoahTheDuke 7y agoLaughable to compare the obsessive curation of music on what.cd with any of those platforms, not to mention the fidelity and the vast range, far exceeding what’s available on the other platforms.
- rowathray 7y agoIf your "music discovery plummeted" after an illegal copyright infringer was taken down a decade ago, I seriously question your commitment to music. In the years that went by since what.cd, you never found new ways to discover music? Oh kay. More like you just liked stealing from creative professionals.
- x100010001 7y agoI do not understand this obsession with politeness (on the web, in real life it's different of course). The whole point of web discussions is that one can say unpleasant truths. If I have to interact in a scripted way, I prefer real life interactions.
- iancmceachern 7y agoAnyone want to invite me?
- solatic 7y agoAnd HN is arguably better for not being invite-only. There are so many articles on HN where the top comment is by somebody with deep domain knowledge who provides some kind of original insight that fits into the low length and polish expectations of a comment, but would never have become a formal blog post. Invite-only communities intentionally give up on that kind of discourse for... what? Easier moderation?
- dorian-graph 7y agoI’d politely suggest reading the post, especially the “Polite & Knowledgable Community” section. Afterwards, you could have a look through https://lobste.rs/hats https://lobste.rs/hats
- gonzo41 7y agoI will jump on and add that the filter options that the OP talks about are a weakness, not a strength. I like HN because I get exposure to ideas and topics that are out of my normal orbit. A lot of the web is very narrow these days and I know HN has it's limitations but it still feels very diverse.
- bnjms 7y agoI’m this case you can have your pie and eat it too. All that is missing is a popularity page. It’s true that random professional posts are the best part of HN but I mostly care about the posts that appear in /best for things outside my interests.
- just-juan-post 7y ago> There are so many articles on HN where the top comment is by somebody with deep domain knowledge who provides some kind of original insight that fits into the low length and polish expectations of a comment This is now a myth. HN used to be like this but look for yourself, it's no longer like this. It's no longer worth my time to dig for worthwhile nuggets in the HN comments nor is it worth my time to post a high quality comment because I know the only responses will be nitpicks and a few worthless internet points. PS: There's a vague rule about not criticizing HN that gets invoked fairly often. Be prepared for this thread to be gassed. EDIT: Dropped off the internet due to a DOS? Snort is fun. Hi dang and friends!
- tluyben2 7y agoWhy do we need to do this kind of comparison? They are both quite nice. I think HN is better for what I look for (but r/programminglanguages and a few others are even better) as there are just a lot of people here who actually have experience with the topics discussed. PL experts, formal method experts, cancer experts, etc everyone is ready to write quite a nice explanation for nothing. The volume on Lobste.rs for some topics is just not large enough to get an insightful convo going. Also I notice a lot of Lobste.rs is a mix between my fav subreddits & HN. So it's a circlejerk. But then again r/programmingcirclejerk is one of my favorite subreddits anyway.
- wenc 7y ago> The volume on Lobste.rs for some topics is just not large enough to get an insightful convo going. I get that sense too. I looked at the titles of the links on Lobste.rs and this is a purely subjective opinion, I feel the content appeals to a specific demographic. I struggled to find a link there that would interest me (not that my opinion matters terribly). 10-15 years ago, we experienced something similar with Slashdot and Kuro5hin. Kuro supposedly had much higher quality content, but I couldn't help but feel the site only appealed to certain kinds of people. I appreciate high quality content yet could not bring myself to care about Kuro. (I'm sure many here have the opposite experience, so I'd be interested in your counterpoints). I very much believe in curation, but without volume, curation seems like pre-mature optimization, it seems to me.
- wink 7y agoGood point. I only ever heard positive things about kuro5hin, but I never warmed up to it, no matter how hard I tried. It's the same as some print newspapers. You know they are better than some others, but all of their content is just too... dry? for you. And no, I don't mean too high-level or non-boulevard. They just seem to have an air of something that doesn't suit you.
- wenc 7y agoI once subscribed to a Canadian magazine called "The Walrus" -- it was the Canadian parallel to Harper's. The articles were well-written, but the subject matters were... how to put this... oh so boring. They were all these long-form articles about first-world upper middle class white-bread issues that few people actually cared about except for the insular literary classes. I killed my subscription and subscribed to the Atlantic instead.
- chromatin 7y agoI disagree [that it is "better"]. I am a wayward hacker in a non-tech field. Don't know anyone from whom to obtain an invitation (to be clear, not soliciting for one -- don't have time for another site/newsfeed), probably even within 1-2 degrees of separation. I suppose they are perfectly happy remaining small and low-traffic, so it works for them.
- fareesh 7y agoSo who is willing to invite me? I am nice
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- laumars 7y agoThe down-vote feature (for those who didn't read the article: you have to provide feedback to down-vote) is something I've spent years saying HN badly needs. These days I just don't bother posting most of the time because while I shouldn't be bothered by abuse of negative rep; you can't help be pissed off when you've spent a short while including detail only for someone who doesn't understand the subject or has a personal bias in the subject to react with a knee-jerk down vote. It's not as bad when people reply because at least you gain context into their point of view (even if you don't agree with them) but it always felt, dare I say, "rude" to effectively fine a comment karma without explaining why you've done so. Also HN's model actively encourages burner accounts where people will say something they know to be contentious with an anonymous account so they don't burn their own karma. The problem with that is that can then sometimes lead to trolling too. After all, why sensor your opinion if you're now a burner account? There used to be so much good content posted in the comments but the quality seems to have diminished over the years and I honestly think that's in part due to more people reaching the karma threshold for down-voting. The more times a genuinely thoughtful or informative post gets a knee-jerk negative vote, the less people will feel inclined to give up their time writing thoughtful or informative comments.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- Existenceblinks 7y agoDown-voting sometimes increased my incentive to do trolling. I felt like they attacked me first for no good reasons.
- o10449366 7y agoDownvoting isn't the problem - it's spam flagging. There's no better tool for suppressing ideas and viewpoints you disagree with than flagging it. Only on HN can a story occupy #1 on the front page due to overwhelming upvotes, and 30 seconds later be sunk to the depths of page 2 or 3 by a handful of flaggers who disagree with the content that's presented.
- 7y ago
- aezakmi 7y agoHN is reddit lite.
- cf 7y agoIf you want an invite, email me with your username or some other places where you've commented and if you don't seem like an asshole I'll hook you up.
- slg 7y agoI think the invite only aspect of it can be a problem. The invitee needs to get the invite from someone that they either know in real life or someone who can vouch for them online. The former isn't a great solution because it requires users to be linked to their real identity by at least one person. Real identities have some advantages, but requiring it bars a lot of good discussions that people don't want linked to their real name. Allowing pseudonyms gives people freedom to publicly say something they would traditionally only say privately or sometimes not at all. If it is paired with strong moderation, like HN is, it can prevent the greater internet fuckwad theory from going into effect which is a common problem with anonymous communities. If you have people inviting people that they don't know the real identity of, the invite system isn't really adding anything beyond making it slightly more complicated to join. I could understand a theory that a higher barrier to entry means that only people with a high desire will join resulting in a better community. It is possible that results in better discussion, but I'm not sold because there are plenty of bad users like spammers and bots that are also highly motivated.
- Defenestresque 7y agoI have to disagree with the false dichotomy you are presenting wrt to the invite system. Specifically, being forced to reveal your real identity to at least one other user vs. "inviting people that they don't know the real identity of" which you say means that "the invite system isn't really adding anything beyond making it slightly more complicated to join." There are many people online whose real identities I don't know whom I consider thoughtful individuals more than capable of engaging in meaningful and respectful discourse. I'd be happy to vouch for them in an invite-only board.
- slg 7y agoIt is much easier to compartmentalize and hide things online when your true identity is unknown. I have enough karma here on HN, that I am sure I could get someone on Lobste.rs to vouch for me without personally knowing me. But maybe my karma is only high here because I have a cabal of other accounts upvoting me and the mods haven't caught on yet. Or maybe this is my one authentic account and on Reddit I run a swarm of bots that hits /r/politics to support my chosen presidential candidate. Appearing to be a good user on one site doesn't guarantee that a person will be a good user everywhere. Personally knowing someone and having that real life connection to provide consequences is a much stronger deterrent to bad behavior.
- preommr 7y ago> This has snowballed and now the community is full of experts in their fields The front page is mostly dead. The most discussed thread has like 17 comments. And a lot of those comments are uninteresting - e.g. "Hey, really nice post!". I think it's more important to have a lot of users, with the occasional user that has a deep expertise in one area rather than a small group of people that are slightly better on average. Honestly, there are probably plenty of small subreddits that have a higher level of expertise. Places like /r/askhistorian have proven that it's possible to have really good in-depth and insightful discussions if a modicum of moderation is implemented. It's especially easy for topics related to a profession and even more generalized, topics that aren't too inflammatory like politics or religion.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- davelacy 7y agoIs it better to limit access to limit access to only those you personally know? Sounds like a great way to limit exposure to differing thoughts, experiences, and opinions. If you’re only hearing from those in your friend circle, it’s just another glorified chat room... nothing new here
- dorian-graph 7y agoIt’s not only those that you personally know. I was invited by a complete stranger, for example.
- davelacy 7y agoAhh that does make it better but the same limitations still apply to some degree... that’s just a byproduct of exclusivity
- swagonomixxx 7y agoBut .. but .. its written in Rust! That has got to count for something right?
- xenihn 7y agoLobste.rs has a better site and functionality, but HN has a better community and much more activity/discussion. Though I want to note that having a better community doesn't mean the people on HN are nicer or more educated. There's just more users on this site, and thus more content overall, which means a larger amount of good content. I guess you could always read both.
- zitterbewegung 7y agoLook all social platforms (from blogs to news aggregators and networks) continuously change. Not in the manner of the ship of Theseus but in the concept that the people who use the platform determine what the site is all about. What eventually happens is that the people that have been there the longest reminisce when the site was different and they actually preferred that kind of content. But, the site has gone into a new direction.
- unnouinceput 7y agoInvite only? Google in beginning was the same, hence why I never made a gmail account and stayed on yahoo, which allowed me to easy move from it to protonmail 15 years later. Also Facebook was the same, only students were allowed in beginning, which meant I never made a Facebook account either.
- jasoneckert 7y agoFirstly, I like HN. I've been regularly visiting this site for over a year, and I like the content and commentary. And while I like the idea that anyone can join, it would be really nice to limit the down vote for the same reasons outlined in other comments here. Someone I work with put it bluntly when they said "Just post a polite but witty reply to something on Hacker News and watch your points tumble like corporate stock after a security breach."
- kemonocode 7y agoWhile I do agree that having to give a solid reason before downvoting would be a much welcome feature to HN, being invite-only makes it a non-starter, and it only fosters elitism. Sure, it'll always have a small, curated community, but you can be assured the politeness will stay skin-deep before long and there simply won't be enough differing points of view to allow insightful discussion of any kind. It's the same issue I keep seeing time and time again in other closed communities (e.g. invite-only Mastodon instances) where it ends up rotting them from the inside out: they're too big to remain cohesive as just a group of friends, but too small to receive any fresh air. I'd believe "cliques" would be the less polite way to call them.
- azhenley 7y agoOne thing I noticed is that the search feature on there is far worse than HN's. Doing a side by side comparison, I have to go to the 2nd or 3rd page on Lobste.rs to get the results that I would have expected to be first.
- rrix2 7y agoI'm curious what you use search for that often on a forum whose posting activity is largely temporal. Are people using HN etc as an info repository?
- HeWhoLurksLate 7y ago> Are people using HN, etc. as an info repository? One of the nice things about HN is that people with way more experience than you in any given field make posts and comments about their work at times. While generally not useful for specific step-by-step instructions, there are good tips here and there that are at least worth considering, or alt viewpoints that may be interesting to consider in the future.
- pushcx 7y agoYep, and it's slow, too. I just deployed some code to improve it last week and we've got some more in the pipeline. In the meantime, a Google search with `site:lobste.rs` is probably more effective.
- orkon 7y agoOne popular tech site in Russian was invite-only for a very long time: https://habr.com https://habr.com I remember you could get in by someone inviting you or if you wrote a good guest post (there was a separate area for this kind of guest posts and no one could see who the author is). I got impression that invite-only system worked quite well as the site was known for high-quality content and discussions.
- zzzcpan 7y agoIt's more like Medium, than Lobsters, HN or even Reddit. And while they initially succeeded at attracting users with invite-only scarcity, they utterly failed with negative reinforcement.
- nathell 7y agoTangential: I have recently had my articles featured on the front page of Lobsters and HN within hours of each other. Not the same article, so it's not an apples-to-apples comparison, but: - It's very hard for a HN post to get noticed. New posts linger in /newest (frequented by relatively few people) for about half an hour before falling down to the second page, and you need to be lucky enough to receive enough upvotes in that timeframe to hit the front page. Lobsters' "success rate" appears to be higher. - In terms of traffic, I got about 11K hits from unique IPs from HN and about 1.7K from Lobsters. - I like that Lobsters clearly indicates when a submission is authored by its submitter. Overall, as people have mentioned, both communities are great. I've been here for 10+ years – thank you for everything, HN!
- pseudoroot 7y agoI haven't tried lobste.rs. but I enjoy HN without tags (In fact I don't think I'd use tags if HN brings this feature). I enjoy reading articles from different domains (other than tech). And this variety is what keeps me engaged to this platform.
- mxuribe 7y agoI like the reasoning behind lobste.rs that was described. When it first came out, i simply thought it was a clone of hacker news. Having read this post, I'm intrigued. I've recently been spending more of my time on tildes.net (and highly enjoying it!) rather than hacker news...So maybe I'll start focusing on tildes.net and lobste.rs, instead of HN...hmmm.
- ddevault 7y agoI replied to the author on Mastodon earlier. Copypasta: >huh, I totally disagree. The moderation on Lobsters is really self-interested and fickle, and there's little done to protect any opinions which differ from the mainstream. I've seen a lot of trolls and hateful threads go unmoderated just because they agree with the party line. The platform also has a censorship problem, in which they merge new posts into old posts even if they're tangentally related - for example, if an article spreading misinformation front pages on Lobsters, the rebuttal posted the next day will be quickly merged into the original thread which, by then, is on the second page and already passed through most Lobsters reader's purview. >The HN mods go out of their way to try and make a community which is diverse and representative of a broad set of viewpoints. Sometimes this goes too far and allows really dissonant opinions to be surfaced, but on the whole I think this approach is better. I also agree that HN has its share of problems, though. Someone else pointed out that HN has a problem wherein a small minority of users can flag posts out of existence.
- Carpetsmoker 7y agoI don't recall ever seeing "hateful" content go unmoderated. Do you have any examples? Also not sure what you mean with "protect opinions outside of the mainstream"? What kind of opinions do you mean? And how should they be protected?
- ddevault 7y agoThe hateful comments are all passive aggression in my experience. I don't mean anything anti-semitic content or anything along those lines of hate - I just mean bad faith arguments, ad hominem attacks, etc. As for non-mainstream, basically anything that the moderators don't agree with. Could be about technology or politics. Anything which dissents from the prevailing opinion of a comment thread is also at risk for being moderated. They don't moderate the discussion, they moderate the topic.
- oxnrtr 7y agoCan you link to such an action happening?
- nathell 7y agoComments on the same post on Lobsters: https://lobste.rs/s/bxuqzy/why_lobste_rs_is_better_than_hacker_news https://lobste.rs/s/bxuqzy/why_lobste_rs_is_better_than_hack...
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- smitty1e 7y agoAs with licences, I've got a "hand-wavy" opinion that the sum is greater than the components. Hacker News and Lobste.rs together is greater than either in isolation. Some of the pummelings I've received on here have been justified rebukes of jackassery. A couple have seemed burnings at the stake for violations of orthodoxy. But asbestos nickers are just what you wear.
- system16 7y agoI personally don't see the appeal with Lobste.rs. Every time I see it mentioned on here, I'll go back to take a look but I never see enough interesting discussion or content to make me consistently return, or desire an invite. As a Reddit / Hacker News-alternative (or supplement), I've been far more impressed by Tildes.
- ahuth 7y agoI'm interested to try out participating... but I cannot get an invite, despite talking with folks in their irc, posting my homepage, some projects, github profile, etc. Meanwhile, other folks are coming into the channel and getting invites. That's annoying...
- ahuth 7y agoMaybe this is for the better, though. I totally understand why they'd want to restrict membership and keep things focused and civil. But there is also something that feels off about excluding people who are probably qualified to be there. Sort of like interviewing at tech companies, there may not be a good solution. I imagine they're willing to put up with false negatives as long as false positives are minimized. And that does make sense. But being on the other end of it is weird.
- nickpsecurity 7y agoSpeaking on behalf of Lobsters, I'll repost my former comment about this site when I explained it to Hacker News: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17873715 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17873715 Feedback from Lobsters, esp those that run the site and major contirbutors, was mostly in agreement. Most responses preferred one or more of peaceful coexistence, getting good from both, and/or cross-posting good stories/comments to both communities. A seemingly-tiny group does hate HN or SV, though. We're less about which is best so much as helping make the one(s) we use the best. On Lobsters, culture articles usually get more upvotes than downvotes. This article on Lobsters got a large number of downvotes at a higher-than-usual ratio indicating they thought it doesn't represent Lobsters' vies and/or might offend the HN community. That's despite kevq being a guy we like who writes and submits lots of content that gets plenty of upvotes. Just throwing out there for anyone on HN wandering if this was a group consensus or just kevq's thing. Speaking for myself to address a few comments in this thread: 1. Looks dead. It usually is on weekends. Check back Monday and Wednesday. Always slower-moving, lower comments, and just more laid back, though. Although niche, we're unusually strong in accessibility, formalmethods, plt, and testing. Look at the tags: https://lobste.rs/tags https://lobste.rs/tags 2. Politics, echo chambers, moderation, etc. The site itself is diverse. The main preferences in voting are people that just want deep tech vs people that want human side and/or political (most far-left-leaning). There's plenty in between who submit links, drop in randomly, etc. These two are just most vocal about preferences. If not haters or trolling, then moderators let visibility be determined by votes w/ worst collapsed, not deleted. Deletes and bans are rare with constructive criticism from community being most common. 3. Experts. Lobsters comments has higher expert-to-non-expert ratio on a lot of topics due to its model. HN's model and long history gives it a higher volume of experts and expert comments. The two are also usually different even on same article or topic. Reading both sites is best for maximizing expertise. Dan, I appreciate the list you posted illustrating No 3 since I've needed that on most of the occasions I've described HN's diverse array of experts to people not on the site. Definitely passing it along.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- pushcx 7y ago(I'm the Lobsters admin.) I think "better" is too reductive a framing for comparing things as broad and deep as online communities. There's no single dimension to judge quality on, and it's largely a matter of personal taste. I appreciate the praise but this post feels like a missed opportunity for a really valuable conversation about how design features have shaped these two sites (to say nothing of the dozens of others they draw inspiration from). In short: https://lobste.rs/s/bxuqzy/why_lobste_rs_is_better_than_hacker_news#c_sj4hof https://lobste.rs/s/bxuqzy/why_lobste_rs_is_better_than_hack... Couple previous takes when we've been mentioned here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21453180 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21453180 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21947299 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21947299 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20892064 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20892064