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"Forced" is a weirdly charged word - like "garbage disposal workers forced to sign statement acknowledging that their work will involve handling garbage". What'
by Shish2k 7y ago
"Forced" is a weirdly charged word - like "garbage disposal workers forced to sign statement acknowledging that their work will involve handling garbage". What's the alternative here?
Yeah, it's awful, dirty work, and we should give them as much support as possible (definitely more support than they are getting right now) - but at the end of the day, "dealing with things most people don't want to touch" is literally the reason that the job exists...
TBH I'd be more concerned if YouTube was signing up moderators WITHOUT telling them that they're in for a life of emotional torture :/
- meddlin 7y ago> What's the alternative here? Not a popular one, but another alternative is to fundamentally change the service. But that involves possibly losing YouTube. Assuming Alphabet/Google (and most others) won't even consider that option...yeah, you're pretty on point.
- SolaceQuantum 7y agoGarbage workers have used labor organization to stand up to unfair treatment. Do YouTube Moderators?
- tantalor 7y agoExplain how this is unfair treatment.
- zweep 7y agoWell garbage workers unions have ensured that the job is one of the best paying you can get without a degree or credential.
- martin_bech 7y agoDunno why the downvoted. here at least, they mske more than a say a nurse.
- dredmorbius 7y agoThe comment seems to imply an unjust degree of compensation, or at the least, fails to acknowledge its merits. Given the charged and rather wanton nature of other comments in this thread, it may be being judged unfairly, though that's not my view.
- gugagore 7y agofrom https://www.bls.gov/emp/documentation/nem-definitions.htm https://www.bls.gov/emp/documentation/nem-definitions.htm: No formal educational credential. This category signifies that a formal credential issued by an educational institution, such as a high school diploma or postsecondary certificate, is not typically needed for entry into the occupation. Examples of occupations in this category include janitors and cleaners, cashiers, and agricultural equipment operators. I didn't look to see if garbage workers specifically get higher salaries, but could be. But even if that's the case, it doesn't seem like a very high salary, so, assuming that unions are not in a zero-sum game, and didn't need to cause other salaries to lower, this sounds like a benefit of unions. Or is it a drawback? I wasn't sure how your statement was taken.
- pmiller2 7y agoSanitation worker is also one of the most dangerous jobs you can do. Being a sanitation worker is more dangerous than being a cop: https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2019/01/08/most-dangerous-jobs-us-where-fatal-injuries-happen-most-often/38832907/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2019/01/08/most-dangero...
- anoncake 7y agoGarbage disposal workers handling garbage is a lot more obvious and more importantly, it's just unpleasant but doesn't cause long-term damage.
- wbl 7y agoAll that heavy lifting takes a toll
- 52-6F-62 7y agoAnd those unionized workers usually have pretty great benefits, pay, and pensions that they've bargained for because of that. If their back goes out, the insurance and/or company will have to foot the bill. If the company fails to provide adequate training and safety precautions [within reason] they're highly liable. This sounds a little like YT is attempting to abdicate responsibility, rather than coming to an agreement. All of that said, I have no insight into the onboarding practices for a job like this one. Are they trained not only in how to moderate, but how to recognize signs of work-related stress or mental issues ahead of time and given reasonable precautions against causing long-term damage? Are they thoughtfully prepared for some of the content they will have to view? I guess I could look this up myself, but I'm also wondering if anyone here has that kind of insight.
- Shish2k 7y ago> Garbage disposal work [...] doesn't cause long-term damage Fun fact: it's actually the 6th most deadly job in America Raw data source: https://web.archive.org/web/20150208215521/https://www.bls.gov/iif/oshwc/cfoi/cfoi_rates_2013hb.pdf https://web.archive.org/web/20150208215521/https://www.bls.g... User-friendly graphs: https://qz.com/410585/garbage-collectors-are-more-likely-to-die-on-the-job-than-police-patrol-officers/ https://qz.com/410585/garbage-collectors-are-more-likely-to-...
- goatinaboat 7y ago... and 99% male, funnily enough
- 7y ago
- dredmorbius 7y agoSigning a nonnegotiable disclaimer, without full knowledge of impacts, under economic duress, under an extreme power and negotiation disadvantage, as a third-party contract employee, without collective bargaining, is not free and fully-informed consent. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22139444 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22139444
- staplers 7y agoYou just explained like 90% of working class jobs.
- danharaj 7y agoMarx was right.
- quindecagon 7y ago.. about nothing. Most people in his day knew this right away but even today some people still deny this.
- dredmorbius 7y agoI'm aware of that. At least now. Less so in my younger years.
- kome 7y agoit's so great you changed idea and you became both more realistic and more emphatic.
- dredmorbius 7y agoI'd like to think the empathy was present. The first-hand and theoretic knowledge was not. Much of the theory I'd been supplied (mainstream economics, an unbeknownst to me at the time hardline Libertarian professor in my intro course: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22133958 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22133958), was false. Undoing the damage of false priors and models, especially under ongoing objection and denial based on those, is difficult and expensive in time, effort, and willpower.
- ailideex 7y agoIt is kind of weird that people freak out when Google requires that employees acknowledge something factual as Prerequisite for employment.
- jaysonelliot 7y agoAgreed. "Required" would be a more accurate, less emotionally charged word. Signing the acknowledgment may be required if you want the job, but you're free to leave. You're not literally being forced to work at YouTube. Yes, you might really need the job. That's still not force.
- didibus 7y agoSome other comments mentioned that existing employees are required to sign the waiver to continue employment. To me that's more justifying of the word forced, because of the threat of losing your job. And how do you force someone to do something? It's generally by threatening them of some consequence they dread or can't afford. Losing your job sounds like it qualifies to me. Another thing I want to bring to the debate is that opportunity does matter. It may not be YouTube that is forcing them to work under such conditions, but our society at large. We set standards which create the alternative choices. If we offered better means of making a living to people, they wouldn't agree to such conditions. So this social aspect is really important. We need to all uphold standards of respect and dignity for ourselves and others. This is really important, because those standards define the selection of choices that you are free to choose from.
- zzzcpan 7y ago> Yeah, it's awful, dirty work, and we should give them as much support as possible Have you ever moderated anything? I don't see how a one sided content moderation can invoke much emotions, like even talking on HN to others is more of an "emotional torture" than such moderation. The problem with moderation is probably more about overloading people, forcing them to keep focus all day long.
- untog 7y ago> I don't see how a one sided content moderation can invoke much emotions What?! These people are watching videos of extreme violence, child pornography. You don't think it can "invoke much emotions"?
- zzzcpan 7y agoI don't think it can, that's not how emotions work.
- watwut 7y agoYou might want to check with psychologist.
- zzzcpan 7y agoHere's what I think is happening: megacorps want to overwork people into the ground, but pretend that it's disturbing content that's causing it, not them forcing people to keep focused and assessing content all day long. I moderated millions of images myself, plenty of disturbing images, but for my own project and this is why it sounds like bullshit to me.
- thrwaway69 7y agoOr it is both... Honestly speaking, whether it be videos of extreme content or fluffy rabbits. I will feel absolutely terrible after a few hours of having to watch it. I can't imagine doing that for months.
- FireBeyond 7y agoA disclaimer that says they could be fired for disclosing disabilities (illegal), and that says nothing about Accenture assisting with their PTSD (beyond WeCare, which has already been flagged for many problems, including inability to access at work, and Accenture/Facebook supervisors pressuring counselors for visit summaries or patient care notes), and obligates the employee to find their _own_ mental health care because of work issues, at their own cost. And being pressured to sign the voluntary form or risk being fired.
- clubm8 7y ago>What's the alternative here? The alternative was not warning workers of the risks involved, and being sued for the injuries sustained on the job. It's fairly recent that mainstream, non psych experts are becoming aware people other than soldiers can experience PTSD.
- sgustard 7y agoGarbage collectors have always existed. That's not true for shocking videos. Youtube and other social networks need to be held accountable for creating the incentive to produce such content in the first place. The impact on their own employees is only the first sliver of harm they are enabling.
- judge2020 7y agoThe "incentive" to produce most shocking content is mostly due to the video sharing websites being free and open; even if there were no recommendations or subscriber feeds on YouTube, they would need this content moderation job since the same people would be uploading the same stuff.
- onion2k 7y agoThat sounds like you believe YouTube hosting appalling, extreme content is just a fact of life and there's nothing that can be done about it. That's a sad testament about Google engineers if it's true. If Google could do something about this problem and are choosing not to then a better analogy would be garbage collectors signing something to accept they have to handle anthrax, and you saying "well, they don't have to be garbage collectors!"
- numpad0 7y agoI’m personally more interested in societal impacts to it. YouTube is an impactful media, and it is moderated by personal judgements of, low paid, unqualified “moderators”, who may or may not have PTSD warping judgements or has political or religious inclinations. I remember there was a news story of a Facebook moderator whose PTSD caused them to flag a legitimate family photo as a child pornography. I don’t think there is any other interpretation to it than that repeated exposure to images to flag will lead to the standards within the moderator to rise towards infinity sooner or later, beyond logic. This is a slow fire burning the library of Alexandria that is the Internet, because everything WILL be labeled as “hateful offensive violent pornography” or something, past which point only static noises remain. This needs to stop.
- redisman 7y agoGiant extrapolation alert. So what's the alternative? Just leave the ISIS beheading video at #1 trending?
- bryanrasmussen 7y agoWhen you are working and the company wants you to sign something to keep working it is different than if you are looking for work and the company says before you can work here you have to sign this.