4 ms·

"too much upfront planning" is one thing I've never experienced before. perhaps, you mean wrongful planning or indecision?

tilolebo 7y ago
Not the GP, but long term plans are at best inaccurate, worst case completely wrong. Plus, you spent all this time planning instead of implementing/discovering.
- kingisaac 7y ago
  Both mindsets are necessary, and it's also possible to go too far in both directions. I've been on teams that took planning to an absurd end, which resulted in obsolete plans as soon as implementation started. I've also been on teams which went around in circles because they didn't have any direction and their implementation/discovery wasn't focused on a clear goal. Long term plans are only inaccurate or wrong if they're over reaching. Plans, like every other part of a project, have to be able to change and grow throughout implementation. It's not long-term planning that is the issue, it's the stagnation of overbearing plans.
  - janee 7y ago
    > Long term plans are only inaccurate or wrong if they're over reaching. True, but for me the real problem is actually identifying that ideal amount of planning for some project. It's easy in hindsight to say something was over reaching or not enough planning was done, but not always that simple prior to starting a project. Ideal planning vigor and scope seems super context sensitive to me and even with experience I often feel I get it wrong.
    - kingisaac 7y ago
      There's no such thing as perfection, only the pursuit of perfection. Hindsight is a crucial part of making sure you don't make the same mistakes. Don't worry, you'll have plenty of opportunities to make brand new mistakes.
  - wiz21c 7y ago
    Funny you say that. The way it goes with my boss is : - boss: Yeah, don't spend too much time on planning it will be at best inaccaurate - me: ok; I make a plan and, well, there are known unknows - later on, my boss: why have you those unknowns ? don't you think it's obvious that unknowns are a problem and that we can't show our customer we have unknowns because we're-professionals-we-know-what-we-do ? - me: err... well...
    - SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
      I think you've gotta put yourself in the customer's shoes. If you ask a vendor when a project will be done, and they respond "well we have some unknowns haha", what are you supposed to do with that? It's not a very useful answer.
      - gowld 7y ago
        "Here's what we've accomplished this month. Would you like to continue the engagement for another month?" Better than lying about knowledge of the future.
- Demiurge 7y ago
  They're inaccurate, but they're fundamentally fate altering when you can put some pieces of information together to generate a non-obvious conclusion that prevents a huge disaster. Good planning is not about assuming something works, that's where most of the time the plan is wrong, it is to assume something doesn't work, and what can be done to forge ahead in such a case. Good planning is also revising plans any time new information is learned.
gwbas1c 7y ago
> "too much upfront planning" Maybe bad assumptions, or a general unwillingness to validate assumptions? (IE, "Too much planning," not enough iteration / stakeholder feedback.)
pbhjpbhj 7y ago
I'm not a programmer/dev, however ... You can plan and plan and plan. Then start and realise that you should have _tried_ earlier because that informs the planning more (close the loop, iterate, go again). That's why prototypes/MVPs are a thing, surely.
- Demiurge 7y ago
  I can see how this is possible, but I've never experienced it. On the contrary, I see people just do and do and waste effort and redo because of things that could have easily been foreseen with a plan based on input from all stakeholders. Meaning, yeah, I see someone make a plan on their own and inflict their plan on others, but that is just a bad plan.
detaro 7y ago
It easily develops into subcategory of "wrongful planning". I.e. planning things the people doing the planning do not have the expertise to make decisions about, but they felt like they needed to plan it. And now you're stuck with it, because otherwise someone would have to admit they didn't know what they were doing while justifying a change from the announced plan to the customer. (yes, there's a lot more than that wrong with the situation in that case)

tilolebo 7y ago

Not the GP, but long term plans are at best inaccurate, worst case completely wrong. Plus, you spent all this time planning instead of implementing/discovering.

kingisaac 7y ago
Both mindsets are necessary, and it's also possible to go too far in both directions. I've been on teams that took planning to an absurd end, which resulted in obsolete plans as soon as implementation started. I've also been on teams which went around in circles because they didn't have any direction and their implementation/discovery wasn't focused on a clear goal. Long term plans are only inaccurate or wrong if they're over reaching. Plans, like every other part of a project, have to be able to change and grow throughout implementation. It's not long-term planning that is the issue, it's the stagnation of overbearing plans.
- janee 7y ago
  > Long term plans are only inaccurate or wrong if they're over reaching. True, but for me the real problem is actually identifying that ideal amount of planning for some project. It's easy in hindsight to say something was over reaching or not enough planning was done, but not always that simple prior to starting a project. Ideal planning vigor and scope seems super context sensitive to me and even with experience I often feel I get it wrong.
  - kingisaac 7y ago
    There's no such thing as perfection, only the pursuit of perfection. Hindsight is a crucial part of making sure you don't make the same mistakes. Don't worry, you'll have plenty of opportunities to make brand new mistakes.
- wiz21c 7y ago
  Funny you say that. The way it goes with my boss is : - boss: Yeah, don't spend too much time on planning it will be at best inaccaurate - me: ok; I make a plan and, well, there are known unknows - later on, my boss: why have you those unknowns ? don't you think it's obvious that unknowns are a problem and that we can't show our customer we have unknowns because we're-professionals-we-know-what-we-do ? - me: err... well...
  - SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
    I think you've gotta put yourself in the customer's shoes. If you ask a vendor when a project will be done, and they respond "well we have some unknowns haha", what are you supposed to do with that? It's not a very useful answer.
    - gowld 7y ago
      "Here's what we've accomplished this month. Would you like to continue the engagement for another month?" Better than lying about knowledge of the future.
Demiurge 7y ago
They're inaccurate, but they're fundamentally fate altering when you can put some pieces of information together to generate a non-obvious conclusion that prevents a huge disaster. Good planning is not about assuming something works, that's where most of the time the plan is wrong, it is to assume something doesn't work, and what can be done to forge ahead in such a case. Good planning is also revising plans any time new information is learned.

gwbas1c 7y ago

> "too much upfront planning" Maybe bad assumptions, or a general unwillingness to validate assumptions? (IE, "Too much planning," not enough iteration / stakeholder feedback.)

pbhjpbhj 7y ago

I'm not a programmer/dev, however ... You can plan and plan and plan. Then start and realise that you should have _tried_ earlier because that informs the planning more (close the loop, iterate, go again). That's why prototypes/MVPs are a thing, surely.

Demiurge 7y ago
I can see how this is possible, but I've never experienced it. On the contrary, I see people just do and do and waste effort and redo because of things that could have easily been foreseen with a plan based on input from all stakeholders. Meaning, yeah, I see someone make a plan on their own and inflict their plan on others, but that is just a bad plan.

detaro 7y ago

It easily develops into subcategory of "wrongful planning". I.e. planning things the people doing the planning do not have the expertise to make decisions about, but they felt like they needed to plan it. And now you're stuck with it, because otherwise someone would have to admit they didn't know what they were doing while justifying a change from the announced plan to the customer. (yes, there's a lot more than that wrong with the situation in that case)