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Wonder if this will help to kill a meme, about how much Apple cares about users and what great values they have, how they're going to stand for the user, fight

Wonder if this will help to kill a meme, about how much Apple cares about users and what great values they have, how they're going to stand for the user, fight with governments, etc. While iPhone itself is pretty secure as a device phone (and Apple makes sure to remind you about that in each ad, public speaking, attacks on competitors, etc), as an ecosystem it's not secure. And it's like that on purpose - there's no good and easy option to backup your phone other than iCloud. You have to be a tech person to know how to keep an iPhone secure. Average Joe buys iPhone and pays for iCloud. They Apple first $1k to get (on top of other things) a secure device, and then they Apple monthly fee to give Apple all their data and make insecure. Pretty genius business strategy.

terminaljunkid 7y ago
That meme should have been diminished earlier. People should understand while Google saves much data within itself, Apple shares it with advertising partners. By the way, People have come to hate Google all the way for some advertising and easily switch-able data collection. But one should at same time hesitate to vote to apple with their wallets, they are a monster company which patents rounded corners of phones and things like optional chaining in Swift. That just goes unnoticed in circles like HN. IMO apple has always been more evil than Google.
privateSFacct 7y ago
Seriously - a big deal to me for sure.
wnevets 7y ago
>Wonder if this will help to kill a meme, aboyt how much Apple cares about users and what great values they have, Probably not. The keyboards on their laptops are barely functional but it doesn't stop people from saying how great they are.
- 77pt77 7y ago
  I'm always reminded of The Onion's prophetic sketches: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BnLbv6QYcA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BnLbv6QYcA
- fragmede 7y ago
  It's true the butterfly keyboards have issues, but there's no need to be dramatic about it.
- DonaldPShimoda 7y ago
  > The keyboards on their laptops are barely functional This must be some definition of "barely functional" I'm unfamiliar with. I've had a mid-2017 MBP since they were released. Yeah, I had to get the keyboard replaced when some keys failed after a year, but at least they did it for free. Actually, overall I prefer this keyboard to the 2013 I had previously. I think their failure rate is unacceptable, but they are certainly not "barely functional" by even the remotest interpretation of the phrase.
  - Gigablah 7y ago
    On my second company issued MBP (with the touchbar) now, keyboard is starting to fail again. Stuck spacebar. Last time it was the period key. Even crappy Acer laptops from the 2000s had longer lifespans.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - munchbunny 7y ago
    It's heavily dependent on personal taste, but for example I make easily twice as many mistakes typing with the new keyboard than I did with the old keyboard, or any other keyboard I own, on other laptops or standalone. I wouldn't call it "barely functional" either since I can clearly still type on that keyboard, but the combination of mechanical failure rate and personal accuracy issues means that I buy the MBP despite the keyboard.
    - DonaldPShimoda 7y ago
      Yes, this is absolutely a fair take. I've heard from multiple people that they seem to make more mistakes with this keyboard, and other people say they just don't like the way it feels. Personally, I find it to be an improvement over the previous generation in almost all respects except for, obviously, the failure rate. I hate that I am expecting the keyboard to fail again within a year or two, but perhaps I will be surprised and this particular one will last long enough that it won't be a problem for me.
  - 7y ago
neya 7y ago
>While iPhone itself is pretty secure as a device phone I simply don't understand why people would blindly believe marketing material from a for-profit corporation. It's a device running closed source software. There is no way to prove this claim. If anything, Apple has been caught in the past sending very very personal sensitive information [1]. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/jul/26/apple-contractors-regularly-hear-confidential-details-on-siri-recordings https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/jul/26/apple-con...
- natch 7y ago
  Not blindly. Outside of marketing material there have been more meaningful signs and signals indicating that they did care. Including principled people working there, threatening to quit if the FBI got its way on San Bernardino, etc. This is new.
  - peterloron 7y ago
    I work at Apple in engineering. User data privacy is a VERY big deal and something which is taken really seriously. It is not just marketing lip service. Is Apple perfect? No, of course not. Are there things I think they should do better? Yes. E2E encryption with user keys stored in Secure Enclave, etc, etc. However, for Joe Consumer, I think they make the most secure, easiest to use platform.
- dfee 7y ago
  Why the distinction on for-profit? There are plenty of non-profits you shouldn’t trust. Surely their tax status is orthogonal to their trustability.
  - anoncake 7y ago
    You can trust an organization to do some mix of pursuing its goals and filling someone's pockets. So while you can trust some non-profits, you can never trust a for-profit about anything you care about as a customer.
natch 7y ago
As someone who has bought into that meme I will admit this feels like a pretty huge betrayal by Apple. So, yes, I think if Apple sticks with this, their whole privacy stance is going in the toilet now. And a very dirty toilet it is. Beyond just the facts of not protecting data, there is also the deception. This is some really very, very, nasty stuff for Apple's brand and the reputation of every person who works at Apple. I don't know how to state it strongly enough. Huge Apple fan until today... see my comment history... this is devastating for them amongst the sliver of their users who pay attention to this stuff. And they should realize that even though we may be just a sliver, we can lead other customers away from them if we want to.
- tomc1985 7y ago
  Yeah, but what are the reasonable alternatives? Android, with its freewheeling stance on privacy and app permissions? Do they even let you disable location tracking any more?
  - parthdesai 7y ago
    No, but Android/Google doesn't go out and advertise themselves as a privacy first company.
    - nicky0 7y ago
      I don't feel like being able to decrypt server backups on legal warrant completely destroys their stance of privacy focused. I mean if they started tracking your behavour and location, and mining it to better sell ads, maybe that would.
  - imiric 7y ago
    Practically speaking there is no privacy in the digital world, unless you're willing to go full Stallman, or abandon modern society and go live in a mountain shack somewhere, and even there you'll have dozens of Starlink satellites overhead pretty soon. The best you can do if you're technically inclined is to use open source as much as possible (AOSP, postmarketOS, PureOS, etc.), minimize use of untrusted software and services (from all major corporations, no social media, no proprietary software in general), use network-level ad blockers, Tor if you think it helps, VPNs, encrypt everything, etc. And you'd still be tracked and profiled. If you're not technically savvy, forget about it. In either case if privacy is really a concern vote to elect politicians that are willing to enact laws that regulate the way companies can use personal data. Though considering both companies and governments benefit from the status quo, I don't foresee things improving in the near future, barring some kind of revolution where the majority wakes up, which is also unlikely. If the Snowden revelations didn't do it, I doubt anything will. So much for fighting 1984, Apple.
tcookisfakeaf 7y ago
In the last year Tim Cook has told college grads his generation failed them on the environment, and Apple complained in the EU about being forced to adopt one standard connector for devices. Lawyers rule the world. Our romantic ideas of law as a just human social framework has always been nonsense. It’s to shield the elite from us. They were designed in an Us v. Them mentality: https://politics.stackexchange.com/questions/8793/what-did-james-madison-try-to-say-when-talking-about-agrarian-reform https://politics.stackexchange.com/questions/8793/what-did-j... Tim is all, “Sad news kids. My peers and I applied our agency to tasks that made this huge mess. Despite acknowledging this, gonna stick with it. Cause I got fewer years ahead of me than you! Cheers!”
ksec 7y ago
>And it's like that on purpose - there's no good and easy option to backup your phone other than iCloud. I really want the iOS Time Capsule Option. Even if it is expensive.
philjohn 7y ago
You don't have to use iCloud backups - you can still backup to a computer and have that backup encrypted.
mistersquid 7y ago
> Wonder if this will help to kill a meme, aboyt how much Apple cares about users and what great values they have, how they're going to stand for the user, fight with governments, etc. In this instance, Apple decided to continue to not encrypt iCloud backups because, according to one source, > […] the company did not want to risk being attacked by public officials for protecting criminals, sued for moving previously accessible data out of reach of government agencies or used as an excuse for new legislation against encryption. [0] Apple's stance on privacy is more than mere marketing and more than a meme, but their legal team decided that encrypting formerly unencrypted backups, which had already been used as evidence in previous cases, is ill-advised. Most people, including technically knowledgable users here on HN, were unaware iCloud backups have always been unencrypted. Many of us concerned about privacy have avoided iCloud backups because they are subject to subpoena. I wish Apple would (have) offered encrypted iCloud backup as an option, and I understand why they chose not to. However, I disagree that their stance on privacy is mere marketing. Apple has a balance to strike between the issues of encryption, privacy, and law enforcement, and their products are not perfect for either users or law enforcement. That doesn't mean Apple doesn't care about its users and their privacy. [0] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-fbi-icloud-exclusive/exclusive-apple-dropped-plan-for-encrypting-backups-after-fbi-complained-sources-idUSKBN1ZK1CT https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-fbi-icloud-exclusiv...
- soulofmischief 7y ago
  It is mere marketing, if it is meant to convince consumers of one thing while in practice it's a different thing. The reasons why are irrelevant. Apple would prefer everyone just assumed iCloud backups were encrypted, and tries to keep quiet about it.
  - lilyball 7y ago
    Apple has never marketed the idea that iCloud backups are encrypted.
    - zacwest 7y ago
      You need to be extremely technical to understand the difference between "Encryption: Yes" and not end-to-end encrypted. To the lay user, Apple is explicitly telling you that they're encrypted. See https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303.
vi4m 7y ago
> there's no good and easy option to backup your phone other than iCloud. Just plug your phone, click "Backup up". You don't even have to open iTunes anymore, just open "Finder" window. Can't be easier than that.
- amlozano 7y ago
  Tell that to us Windows and Linux people
  - jedieaston 7y ago
    iTunes on Windows does the same exact thing, and you can run it in a VM on Linux (if the latest version doesn’t work in Wine, which I think it may).
  - lorenzhs 7y ago
    libimobiledevice works just fine on Linux. Your distribution's version may be out of date, but the upstream version gets updated to match any iOS changes pretty quickly.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
jiux 7y ago
Do you have any personal recommendations on DIY iCloud alternatives?
- commoner 7y ago
  Mega uses end-to-end encryption, and its clients are source-available. The hosting is fully managed, and there is no self-hosting option. https://mega.nz https://mega.nz https://github.com/meganz https://github.com/meganz Seafile is end-to-end encrypted and open core. They offer a managed hosting option, and you can also self-host. https://www.seafile.com https://www.seafile.com https://github.com/haiwen/seafile https://github.com/haiwen/seafile Nextcloud is working on end-to-end encryption, but the feature is not yet stable. It is fully open source. https://nextcloud.com/endtoend https://nextcloud.com/endtoend https://github.com/nextcloud https://github.com/nextcloud
dangus 7y ago
> there's no good and easy option to backup your phone other than iCloud This is false. You can back it up with Finder (since Catalina) or iTunes on Windows or previous macOS versions. You can even do wireless syncing over your local network. All of the infrastructure that Apple built out before iCloud still exists. You can sync your photos with the Photos app locally. It’ll one-click import everything and you can have it automatically clear out storage on your phone after the import has completed as well. You can then back up your computer however you want - locally, encrypted with Time Machine is an easy option.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
mirimir 7y ago
Damn. I had somehow assumed that iCloud backups could not be accessed by Apple. So that pretty much kills the meme for me.
Arn_Thor 7y ago
> there's no good and easy option to backup your phone other than iCloud Except plugging it into a PC or Mac with iTunes, toggle a checkbox and set a password. No, it's not effortless, but it's not bad and it's not difficult
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
xbmcuser 7y ago
China allows them to sell Apple devices in China that alone makes me doubt the privacy of apple devices.
- peterloron 7y ago
  In China, all your data belongs to China. That is simply the way it is if you choose to do business there. You might point fingers at Apple and other companies who operate there, but China is a huge market. The Chinese people know their data is all backdoored, so there is no coverup or obfuscation.
DavideNL 7y ago
> Wonder if this will help to kill a meme, about how much Apple cares about users and what great values they have, how they're going to stand for the user, fight with governments, etc. I interpret this opinion as Black/White thinking or all-or-nothing thinking: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splitting_(psychology) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splitting_(psychology)
Phylter 7y ago
It's less about Apple here and more about the government forcing their control. Apple, Microsoft, and many other companies have gone to congress to try and keep them from controlling encryption. At the end of the day they're a company and they need a certain level of cooperation from the government to do business. THIS is why open source matters. The government can't control people when money isn't what motivates them.
mandeepj 7y ago
> there's no good and easy option to backup your phone other than iCloud of course, there is. You can easily back it up to your computer, and then transfer it to anywhere else.

terminaljunkid 7y ago

That meme should have been diminished earlier. People should understand while Google saves much data within itself, Apple shares it with advertising partners. By the way, People have come to hate Google all the way for some advertising and easily switch-able data collection. But one should at same time hesitate to vote to apple with their wallets, they are a monster company which patents rounded corners of phones and things like optional chaining in Swift. That just goes unnoticed in circles like HN. IMO apple has always been more evil than Google.

privateSFacct 7y ago

Seriously - a big deal to me for sure.

wnevets 7y ago

>Wonder if this will help to kill a meme, aboyt how much Apple cares about users and what great values they have, Probably not. The keyboards on their laptops are barely functional but it doesn't stop people from saying how great they are.

77pt77 7y ago
I'm always reminded of The Onion's prophetic sketches: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BnLbv6QYcA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BnLbv6QYcA
fragmede 7y ago
It's true the butterfly keyboards have issues, but there's no need to be dramatic about it.
DonaldPShimoda 7y ago
> The keyboards on their laptops are barely functional This must be some definition of "barely functional" I'm unfamiliar with. I've had a mid-2017 MBP since they were released. Yeah, I had to get the keyboard replaced when some keys failed after a year, but at least they did it for free. Actually, overall I prefer this keyboard to the 2013 I had previously. I think their failure rate is unacceptable, but they are certainly not "barely functional" by even the remotest interpretation of the phrase.
- Gigablah 7y ago
  On my second company issued MBP (with the touchbar) now, keyboard is starting to fail again. Stuck spacebar. Last time it was the period key. Even crappy Acer laptops from the 2000s had longer lifespans.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- munchbunny 7y ago
  It's heavily dependent on personal taste, but for example I make easily twice as many mistakes typing with the new keyboard than I did with the old keyboard, or any other keyboard I own, on other laptops or standalone. I wouldn't call it "barely functional" either since I can clearly still type on that keyboard, but the combination of mechanical failure rate and personal accuracy issues means that I buy the MBP despite the keyboard.
  - DonaldPShimoda 7y ago
    Yes, this is absolutely a fair take. I've heard from multiple people that they seem to make more mistakes with this keyboard, and other people say they just don't like the way it feels. Personally, I find it to be an improvement over the previous generation in almost all respects except for, obviously, the failure rate. I hate that I am expecting the keyboard to fail again within a year or two, but perhaps I will be surprised and this particular one will last long enough that it won't be a problem for me.
- 7y ago

neya 7y ago

>While iPhone itself is pretty secure as a device phone I simply don't understand why people would blindly believe marketing material from a for-profit corporation. It's a device running closed source software. There is no way to prove this claim. If anything, Apple has been caught in the past sending very very personal sensitive information [1]. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/jul/26/apple-contractors-regularly-hear-confidential-details-on-siri-recordings https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/jul/26/apple-con...

natch 7y ago
Not blindly. Outside of marketing material there have been more meaningful signs and signals indicating that they did care. Including principled people working there, threatening to quit if the FBI got its way on San Bernardino, etc. This is new.
- peterloron 7y ago
  I work at Apple in engineering. User data privacy is a VERY big deal and something which is taken really seriously. It is not just marketing lip service. Is Apple perfect? No, of course not. Are there things I think they should do better? Yes. E2E encryption with user keys stored in Secure Enclave, etc, etc. However, for Joe Consumer, I think they make the most secure, easiest to use platform.
dfee 7y ago
Why the distinction on for-profit? There are plenty of non-profits you shouldn’t trust. Surely their tax status is orthogonal to their trustability.
- anoncake 7y ago
  You can trust an organization to do some mix of pursuing its goals and filling someone's pockets. So while you can trust some non-profits, you can never trust a for-profit about anything you care about as a customer.

natch 7y ago

As someone who has bought into that meme I will admit this feels like a pretty huge betrayal by Apple. So, yes, I think if Apple sticks with this, their whole privacy stance is going in the toilet now. And a very dirty toilet it is. Beyond just the facts of not protecting data, there is also the deception. This is some really very, very, nasty stuff for Apple's brand and the reputation of every person who works at Apple. I don't know how to state it strongly enough. Huge Apple fan until today... see my comment history... this is devastating for them amongst the sliver of their users who pay attention to this stuff. And they should realize that even though we may be just a sliver, we can lead other customers away from them if we want to.

tomc1985 7y ago
Yeah, but what are the reasonable alternatives? Android, with its freewheeling stance on privacy and app permissions? Do they even let you disable location tracking any more?
- parthdesai 7y ago
  No, but Android/Google doesn't go out and advertise themselves as a privacy first company.
  - nicky0 7y ago
    I don't feel like being able to decrypt server backups on legal warrant completely destroys their stance of privacy focused. I mean if they started tracking your behavour and location, and mining it to better sell ads, maybe that would.
- imiric 7y ago
  Practically speaking there is no privacy in the digital world, unless you're willing to go full Stallman, or abandon modern society and go live in a mountain shack somewhere, and even there you'll have dozens of Starlink satellites overhead pretty soon. The best you can do if you're technically inclined is to use open source as much as possible (AOSP, postmarketOS, PureOS, etc.), minimize use of untrusted software and services (from all major corporations, no social media, no proprietary software in general), use network-level ad blockers, Tor if you think it helps, VPNs, encrypt everything, etc. And you'd still be tracked and profiled. If you're not technically savvy, forget about it. In either case if privacy is really a concern vote to elect politicians that are willing to enact laws that regulate the way companies can use personal data. Though considering both companies and governments benefit from the status quo, I don't foresee things improving in the near future, barring some kind of revolution where the majority wakes up, which is also unlikely. If the Snowden revelations didn't do it, I doubt anything will. So much for fighting 1984, Apple.

tcookisfakeaf 7y ago

In the last year Tim Cook has told college grads his generation failed them on the environment, and Apple complained in the EU about being forced to adopt one standard connector for devices. Lawyers rule the world. Our romantic ideas of law as a just human social framework has always been nonsense. It’s to shield the elite from us. They were designed in an Us v. Them mentality: https://politics.stackexchange.com/questions/8793/what-did-james-madison-try-to-say-when-talking-about-agrarian-reform https://politics.stackexchange.com/questions/8793/what-did-j... Tim is all, “Sad news kids. My peers and I applied our agency to tasks that made this huge mess. Despite acknowledging this, gonna stick with it. Cause I got fewer years ahead of me than you! Cheers!”

ksec 7y ago

>And it's like that on purpose - there's no good and easy option to backup your phone other than iCloud. I really want the iOS Time Capsule Option. Even if it is expensive.

philjohn 7y ago

You don't have to use iCloud backups - you can still backup to a computer and have that backup encrypted.

mistersquid 7y ago

> Wonder if this will help to kill a meme, aboyt how much Apple cares about users and what great values they have, how they're going to stand for the user, fight with governments, etc. In this instance, Apple decided to continue to not encrypt iCloud backups because, according to one source, > […] the company did not want to risk being attacked by public officials for protecting criminals, sued for moving previously accessible data out of reach of government agencies or used as an excuse for new legislation against encryption. [0] Apple's stance on privacy is more than mere marketing and more than a meme, but their legal team decided that encrypting formerly unencrypted backups, which had already been used as evidence in previous cases, is ill-advised. Most people, including technically knowledgable users here on HN, were unaware iCloud backups have always been unencrypted. Many of us concerned about privacy have avoided iCloud backups because they are subject to subpoena. I wish Apple would (have) offered encrypted iCloud backup as an option, and I understand why they chose not to. However, I disagree that their stance on privacy is mere marketing. Apple has a balance to strike between the issues of encryption, privacy, and law enforcement, and their products are not perfect for either users or law enforcement. That doesn't mean Apple doesn't care about its users and their privacy. [0] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-fbi-icloud-exclusive/exclusive-apple-dropped-plan-for-encrypting-backups-after-fbi-complained-sources-idUSKBN1ZK1CT https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-fbi-icloud-exclusiv...

soulofmischief 7y ago
It is mere marketing, if it is meant to convince consumers of one thing while in practice it's a different thing. The reasons why are irrelevant. Apple would prefer everyone just assumed iCloud backups were encrypted, and tries to keep quiet about it.
- lilyball 7y ago
  Apple has never marketed the idea that iCloud backups are encrypted.
  - zacwest 7y ago
    You need to be extremely technical to understand the difference between "Encryption: Yes" and not end-to-end encrypted. To the lay user, Apple is explicitly telling you that they're encrypted. See https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303.

vi4m 7y ago

> there's no good and easy option to backup your phone other than iCloud. Just plug your phone, click "Backup up". You don't even have to open iTunes anymore, just open "Finder" window. Can't be easier than that.

amlozano 7y ago
Tell that to us Windows and Linux people
- jedieaston 7y ago
  iTunes on Windows does the same exact thing, and you can run it in a VM on Linux (if the latest version doesn’t work in Wine, which I think it may).
- lorenzhs 7y ago
  libimobiledevice works just fine on Linux. Your distribution's version may be out of date, but the upstream version gets updated to match any iOS changes pretty quickly.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

jiux 7y ago

Do you have any personal recommendations on DIY iCloud alternatives?

commoner 7y ago
Mega uses end-to-end encryption, and its clients are source-available. The hosting is fully managed, and there is no self-hosting option. https://mega.nz https://mega.nz https://github.com/meganz https://github.com/meganz Seafile is end-to-end encrypted and open core. They offer a managed hosting option, and you can also self-host. https://www.seafile.com https://www.seafile.com https://github.com/haiwen/seafile https://github.com/haiwen/seafile Nextcloud is working on end-to-end encryption, but the feature is not yet stable. It is fully open source. https://nextcloud.com/endtoend https://nextcloud.com/endtoend https://github.com/nextcloud https://github.com/nextcloud

dangus 7y ago

> there's no good and easy option to backup your phone other than iCloud This is false. You can back it up with Finder (since Catalina) or iTunes on Windows or previous macOS versions. You can even do wireless syncing over your local network. All of the infrastructure that Apple built out before iCloud still exists. You can sync your photos with the Photos app locally. It’ll one-click import everything and you can have it automatically clear out storage on your phone after the import has completed as well. You can then back up your computer however you want - locally, encrypted with Time Machine is an easy option.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

mirimir 7y ago

Damn. I had somehow assumed that iCloud backups could not be accessed by Apple. So that pretty much kills the meme for me.

Arn_Thor 7y ago

> there's no good and easy option to backup your phone other than iCloud Except plugging it into a PC or Mac with iTunes, toggle a checkbox and set a password. No, it's not effortless, but it's not bad and it's not difficult

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

xbmcuser 7y ago

China allows them to sell Apple devices in China that alone makes me doubt the privacy of apple devices.

peterloron 7y ago
In China, all your data belongs to China. That is simply the way it is if you choose to do business there. You might point fingers at Apple and other companies who operate there, but China is a huge market. The Chinese people know their data is all backdoored, so there is no coverup or obfuscation.

DavideNL 7y ago

> Wonder if this will help to kill a meme, about how much Apple cares about users and what great values they have, how they're going to stand for the user, fight with governments, etc. I interpret this opinion as Black/White thinking or all-or-nothing thinking: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splitting_(psychology) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splitting_(psychology)

Phylter 7y ago

It's less about Apple here and more about the government forcing their control. Apple, Microsoft, and many other companies have gone to congress to try and keep them from controlling encryption. At the end of the day they're a company and they need a certain level of cooperation from the government to do business. THIS is why open source matters. The government can't control people when money isn't what motivates them.

mandeepj 7y ago

> there's no good and easy option to backup your phone other than iCloud of course, there is. You can easily back it up to your computer, and then transfer it to anywhere else.