9 ms·
Alan Turing’s stolen OBE, doctorate recovered in Colorado
- ilamont 7y agoThis tale reminded me of the Totenberg Stradivarius (also known as the Ames Stradivarius), stolen in the early 80s in Cambridge Mass. and recovered after the thief, a former conservatory student, died decades later and his wife (unaware of the provenance) tried to have it appraised (https://stringsmagazine.com/a-new-chapter-begins-in-the-tumultuous-life-of-the-ames-totenberg-stradivari/ https://stringsmagazine.com/a-new-chapter-begins-in-the-tumu...). The thief kept it hidden at first, but in the 1990s and 2000s was apparently performing with it in public.
- ggm 7y agoAn obe isn't a knighthood
- BjoernKW 7y agoYou're right. Only the two most senior ranks of the Order of the British Empire entail knighthood (and the formal title Sir or Dame). Not that it really matters in this case but it's imprecise.
- catalogia 7y ago> Julia Turing isn’t related to Alan Turing, but she changed her last name from Schwinghamer in 1988, according to the complaint. A former biology teacher at the Sherborne said Julia Turing claimed she was Alan Turing’s daughter when he gave her a tour of the school. That's pretty nutty. I wonder how often this sort of thing happens.
- JohnJamesRambo 7y agoIt’s extremely odd to go through all that and then try to loan them to a library.
- ARandomerDude 7y agoTouring complete!
- blazespin 7y agoConsidering the general lack of attention to detail, I would take everything in the article with a grain of salt. Unless you have some particular stake in this and have real on the ground details, it's probably best to not make such comments as "pretty nutty". These are people's lives you're idly commenting on.
- catalogia 7y agoOh spare me, you may as well scold anybody discussing any aspect of the story since she's not yet been convicted of anything and might well be innocent of it all. I don't think this particular aspect of the story is any more off limits for casual discussion than other parts.
- cgrealy 7y agoI feel sorry for her. It seems pretty clear she's dealing with some mental health issues.
- einpoklum 7y agoOne line summary: The items were offered in 2018 to the library University of Colorado at Boulder, by this weird woman who had apparently stolen the items in 1984, then changed her last name to Turing in 1988.
- skunkworker 7y agoTitle misleading. Should be “Feds seize Alan Turing’s stolen doctorate, knighthood medal after being offered to CU Boulder”. I had no idea they were stolen in the first place
- princekolt 7y agoNot only that, but also: "He died by poisoning in 1954." No account of the motive of his poisoning, or his prosecution. When activists protest against erasure, this is what they're talking about.
- oh_sigh 7y agoThis isn't a biography of Turing doing that. It doesn't seem particularly relevant for an article about some documents.
- neltnerb 7y agoIt was a bit odd that the reporter seemed to see nothing odd about Julia Turing claiming to be his daughter.
- ineedasername 7y agoIf the method of death is going to be brought up, the context is relevant. I would agree with you if all they did was list the year of death. But once they say "poisoning", they leave entirely too many unanswered questions for readers.
- JulianWasTaken 7y agoI think that's probably poor writing rather than anything malicious, but perhaps you're (or parent comment is) right.
- dmurray 7y agoIt looks like the hand of an editor to me. The writer wrote "Alan Turing, who died after consuming poison in an apparent suicide in 1954...". The editor told him "we do not editorialize or speculate in this newspaper, stick to the facts" and it got rewritten. Of course, it should just read "Alan Turing, who died in 1954...".
- HeavenFox 7y agoWow. $37,775 is an insanely low valuation - I wonder who came up with that. If the Feds are reading this thread and are looking for a buyer, please send me a message ;)
- ineedasername 7y agoYeah, I could imagine some of the SV mega rich would easily pay an order of magnitude more. Personally if I had the money I'd feature them prominently in a monument dedicated to the irony of fighting a war to keep a large part of the world "free" only to emerge into the narrowly constrained post-war social freedom
- da_chicken 7y agoIt's probably what they were insured for in 1984 when they were originally stolen. I have to think they're much more valuable now, given the past 10 years or so of history.
- toyg 7y agoTuring’s rehabilitation actually started in the late ‘90s in England, through plays and memorials like the one in Manchester (2001). So it’s more like “20 years or so”.
- starpilot 7y agoIt could be someone who doesn't get nerd/tech culture. Christie's valued some Star Trek memorabilia at $30k, it ended up selling for $500k.
- chrisseaton 7y agoBut Turing didn't have a knighthood.
- teruakohatu 7y agoThis journalist does understand what being an officer of the Order of the British Empire means.
- OJFord 7y agoWhat makes you say that, given the errors in title and body of the article?
- wavefunction 7y agoIt's a small-town publication in the US. Honestly, the distinctions of British frippery hold little meaning outside of the Commonwealth.
- teruakohatu 7y ago> British frippery It is one of the highest awards of state.
- wavefunction 7y agothe British state
- why-el 7y agoThat's right, he was an OBE. They probably do get the difference and just using this colloquially.
- munk-a 7y agoThe author made a few pretty sloppy mistakes, sadly.
- 7y ago
- mcnamaratw 7y agoThey seized his diploma, maybe? I don't see how a degree can be seized.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- slg 7y agoWe would likely all agree that seizing these stolen items back is the right decision, but I think it does raise an interesting question. Can a stolen item be possessed long enough for the person or entity in possession of it to rightfully be considered the owner? There are countless museum collections around the globe that are made up of mostly stolen material. At one extreme you have ancient artifacts that were taken by colonial era archaeologists. Does the British Museum have an obligation to return the Elgin Marbles to Greece? What about items that were stolen less than a human lifetime ago? There have been plenty of examples of art stolen by the Nazis that both have and have not been returned to the rightful owners. There doesn't appear to be any consensus on this issue which results in every case resulting in its own negotiation. EDIT: I'm a little confused why this is being downvoted. Is it because of the belief that the stolen items should always belong the the original owner? I agree with that in a theoretical sense, but I was just commenting on the fact that this isn't how things operate in practice and seemingly few governments actually hold anyone to that ethical standard.
- azernik 7y agoGenerally the consensus on art stolen by the Nazis, both legal and moral, is that it should be returned; when pieces are found, the original owners usually go to court and get massive public sympathy even when they don't win the case. The case of art stolen during the colonial period, e.g. the Elgin Marbles, seems to mostly be argued on pragmatic grounds, such as by saying that a mass return of all plundered art would empty out the largest museums in the world. I find this... morally unconvincing, to say the least.
- slg 7y agoI agree morally, but legally it doesn't appear as cut and dry as you imply. Earlier this month there was a NYT article [1] about artwork looted by the Nazis that is currently held in Polish musuems and The Culture Ministry of Poland responded [2] with an argument against the return. [1] - https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/12/arts/design/poland-nazi-looted-art.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/12/arts/design/poland-nazi-l... [2] - https://polandin.com/46197504/polish-ministry-of-culture-rejects-nyt-accusations https://polandin.com/46197504/polish-ministry-of-culture-rej...
- adrianmonk 7y ago> recovered ... Turing’s doctoral degree I find this phrasing a bit surprising, but maybe I can learn something about words here. I've only ever heard "degree" used as an intangible noun, to refer to the achievement or title or whatever you want to call it. Is it common to use it to refer to a physical object? Is it an informal way of saying diploma? Maybe a British way of saying diploma? I made some brief checks of online dictionaries and couldn't find that usage.
- jcrawfordor 7y agoWhile I think technically incorrect, I often see "degree" used to refer to the physical certificate (diploma) as well. Perhaps in part because there is a feeling that a "diploma" is something conferred by high schools, since they typically don't use the term "degree" but do use the term "diploma".
- OJFord 7y agoI'm British, sounds unnatural to me too. I would have said 'degree certificate' (assuming that's what it is) though, not 'diploma'. A 'diploma' to me is a 'degree-equivalent' (as determined by government; not, perhaps, by employers) qualification offered by non-universities.
- alias_neo 7y agoAlso British; have degree "under my belt", have degree certificate; in a folder somewhere. As you said, you can't sieze someone's degree, at best you can invalidate it.
- Havoc 7y agoNot sure it really matters? The name & his thinking is famous...but the doctorate is well just a piece of paper really.
- asdfasgasdgasdg 7y agoThis is true of many things. The original US Constitution, and Declaration of Independence, the Magna Carta (do we even still have that?), the dead sea scrolls, etc. And yet people value these things. Something being "just a piece of paper" doesn't really affect its value one way or the other.
- skissane 7y ago> the Magna Carta (do we even still have that?) Yes. It was actually issued multiple times (with slightly different wording), and each issue was in multiple copies. The most famous is the original of 1215 of which four copies survive (all in England). I've seen the manuscript of the 1297 issue which is on display at the Australian Parliament. Another manuscript of the 1297 issue is on display at the US National Archives. I think those are the only two manuscripts outside the UK; there are a dozen or more manuscripts surviving at various locations in England.
- nealabq 7y agoJulius Mathison Turing was Alan Turing's father. Julia Mathison Turing lives in Colorado and sells Turing-related artwork on eBay. It's nice: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Alan-M-Turing-by-Julia-M-Turing-Art-Work-Collectables-Poster-/201588273703 https://www.ebay.com/itm/Alan-M-Turing-by-Julia-M-Turing-Art... I hope they aren't too harsh on her.
- s_y_n_t_a_x 7y ago> Julia Turing isn’t related to Alan Turing, but she changed her last name from Schwinghamer in 1988, according to the complaint.
- chrisseaton 7y ago> I hope they aren't too harsh on her. According to the article she stole a dead man's medal from a school and then vanished it out of the country where it is of national importance. Seems like a pretty rotten thing for her to do and something we need to discourage, right?
- ropiwqefjnpoa 7y agoMiss Schwinghamer does not sound like she is sound of mind.
- slg 7y agoEven beyond the comment on her mental state, this is an unnecessarily condescending comment. It both refers to her with a name she no longer uses and assumes a marital status when none is ever implied. The decent way to refer to her would be Ms. Turing. Believing she isn't of sound mind should be an even stronger reason to afford her this tiny kindness of respect.
- flocial 7y agoShe legally changed her last name to Turing, claimed she was his daughter despite being of no relation, and stole Turing's possessions thereby endangering his legacy. What sort of kindness and respect does this warrant? I don't think the comment violates HN standards, is civil enough and more importantly quite appropriate considering the crime.
- slg 7y agoPeople have a right to be called what they want. You even admit she legally changed her name so why not use it? The motivations around her desired name are of no concern to any of us. Intentionally refusing to refer to someone by their chosen name is wrong whether that name is Muhammad Ali, Chelsea Manning, or Julia Turing. I have certainly seen comments flagged on HN for inappropriateness when they refuse to refer to Manning by her chosen name.
- chance_state 7y agoHow is it a right to be called what one chooses? I don't think I should have to participate in someone else's reality if I don't want to, just like they're not obliged to interact with me in the way I demand. It's always nice when they do, but I don't think people have a special right to dictate these kinds of terms to other people. I think this is especially true when the person being discussed will never see this conversation.
- monadic2 7y agoMeanwhile the cops refuse to search for my stolen car.
- 40four 7y ago>federal officials searched Julia Turing’s home in Conifer and recovered the items, which are valued at $37,775 I’d really love to know how this value was determined. Is this like some sort of ‘Antiques Road Show’ valuation for insurance purposes? The real answer here, given the historical context, is probably closer to ‘priceless’.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]