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> “These orders don’t pay for our expenses or our time. We actually lose money when we take those orders. If I pick up an order that is 10 miles away and delive

• deleted 7y ago
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• chipperyman573 7y ago
  People don't realize it is a net negative and just think about the $3 they'll be getting
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  • lotsofpulp 7y ago
    Maybe for a day or a week. How can they not realize when they have no money at the end of that?
    • chipperyman573 7y ago
      Because you don't get your car repaired every week
• benmanns 7y ago
  These jobs basically allow you to take a line of credit out against depreciation on your vehicle. Sure you lost money, but you get cash today.
  • xapata 7y ago
    Same with pizza delivery since forever.
    • axaxs 7y ago
      I'd say pizza delivery is far more lucrative. At least, it was when I was a teen.
      • xapata 7y ago
        It was until my $1k car repair.
        • blondin 7y ago
          wow, how did you manage to get a $1k car repair? hope you sold the car!
          • fapjacks 7y ago
            Those repairs are the deeply-embedded, systemic problems that creep up and ambush you one day before work, forcing you to decide between a $1k car repair -- often the barest minimum-cost repair you can find and negotiate -- or forking over a few times that much for an entirely different car to drive.
            • beatgammit 7y ago
              I can usually get a rental for ~$20/day, which buys time to find a better vehicle. A teenager can't get a rental, but they can probably borrow a car from their parents for a few days/weeks until a decent opportunity comes up. $2000 will get you a pretty decent vehicle and is probably a better investment than a $1000 repair.
              • fapjacks 7y ago
                I take it you have not been poor.
• tempsy 7y ago
  You could ask the same about white collar workers voluntarily spending 2hrs a day commuting to get to and from work everyday
  • jlarocco 7y ago
    After bike commuting for 10 years and now working from home, I ask that question all the time. My only guess after asking around is people think they "have to". People put their head down and forget to think about the bigger picture. Maybe working for DoorDash is the same type of thing?
    • Can_Not 7y ago
      A bike commute for me would be a minimum of 2 hours (twice a day) and I'm almost at the years of experience the vast majority of remote jobs start at (which isn't a small number like 2), so you could say I "have to".
      • jlarocco 7y ago
        Well, apparently there's something more important to you than moving closer to work. That's your choice.
        • Can_Not 7y ago
          > apparently there's something more important to you Yup, it's called living in the real world.
          • deleted 7y ago
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        • bigwavedave 7y ago
          > That's your choice. Yep, it's totally someone's choice to live in a neighborhood with affordable housing as opposed to a mansion across the street from their place of employment. Gee, looks like we both know how to make irrational overgeneralizations.
• egypturnash 7y ago
  Elsewhere in the article: "The only reason I do it at all is because the few orders where customers tip high enough to make it worth it keep me going on some of them." - Lee, DoorDash worker in Hendersonville, TN Also of course they may have not done the math yet, or they may be doing this to try and fill in the gaps between their other two shitty minimum-wage jobs that never give them enough hours to be an actual full-time employee with benefits.
  • beatgammit 7y ago
    It feels more like gambling than "filling in the gaps". Casinos, video game loot boxes, mobile games, etc are all based on the idea that an occasional dopamine hit will keep people interested. A good tip now and then seems like the same thing. It's quite likely that someone working multiple jobs will be worse off doing something like Uber and Doordash part time, but they feel like they're better off because they occasionally get that dopamine hit. I think everyone should record everything about these types of side hustles. It's quite likely that the extra miles on your car completely erodes the money you make. The IRS allows deducting $0.50/mile, which is a pretty reasonable estimate for vehicle costs. I drive an older hybrid, which I paid cash for, and my cost is still ~$0.25/mile for repairs, insurance, depreciation, and gas (gas is <$0.10/mile if you get better than 26mpg, so it's very misleading).
• cc439 7y ago
  "However, if a worker rejects too many jobs too frequently, they may receive fewer job offers as a result." They take those jobs because they lose all access to the chance of profitable jobs otherwise. The people working for door dash aren't exactly the sort of person with the ability to fully understand probabilities and statistics either. I'd say it's fair to assume their business model works by bullying the same psychological behaviors as videogame loot crates, lottery tickets, and casinos. That one huge order that pays $30 after tips quiets the anxiety of losing money on the previous ten orders even if the actual math places the driver in the red.
  • kingkawn 7y ago
    Do not condescend the poor.
    • mlyle 7y ago
      Don't dismiss a line of argument without actually refuting it in some way.
• cc439 7y ago
  "However, if a worker rejects too many jobs too frequently, they may receive fewer job offers as a result." They take those jobs because they lose all access to the chance of profitable jobs otherwise. The people working for door dash aren't exactly the sort of person with the ability to fully understand probabilities and statistics either. I'd say it's fair to assume their business model works by bullying the same psychological behaviors as videogame loot crates, lottery tickets, and casinos. That one huge order that pays $30 after tips quiets the anxiety of losing money on the previous ten orders even if the actual math places the driver in the red. Most people have a very poor sense for overhead costs like vehicle maintenance. The link between miles driven and the rate of repairs required just isn't there.
  • vector_spaces 7y ago
    I've worked these gigs before, and so have friends of mine with advanced STEM degrees. Sometimes you are stuck between a rock and a hard place (usually you are, if you're low income) and your current dilemma is between not being able to afford your rent tomorrow or food tonight, and working some exploitative app gig like this. So cool the condescension. Poor folks -- even those with really low numeracy -- are generally extremely aware that these gigs are exploitative and not sustainable income sources in the long run and see the scam a mile away. In my experience it's folks who haven't been poor who don't have a good sense for how expensive it is to be poor, for how difficult it is to make long term decisions, and the intractability of problems you have to solve just to get by sometimes
    • savanaly 7y ago
      None of all of what you wrote addresses how those folks between a rock and a hard place will be better off not having the option to work for a given service at all.
      • gvjddbnvdrbv 7y ago
        Because people still want food cooked and delivered and to use taxis. If the non financially viable companies did not exist then financially viable ones would.
• BurningFrog 7y ago
  > This begs an obvious question: why are people choosing to do this if it pays $0/hr? The obvious answer is that it actually pays more.
  • AmVess 7y ago
    I don't know about that. I've never seen the same driver twice...not from Doordash and not from any other delivery service except the two that have the drivers as actual employees. I'm sure the churn is huge because the pay isn't there.
  • asdfasgasdgasdg 7y ago
    I am curious about how they selected workers to sample. If the advertisement was, "Pissed about your DoorDash wages? Share them with us!" or anything similar, I'm not sure what conclusions can be drawn from the analysis.
    • mlyle 7y ago
      Though it's not likely too distorted, because the average hourly gross pay was similar to what DoorDash cites [we can't tell how close because DD doesn't explain their exact methodology]; just the net pay is very low.
      • asdfasgasdgasdg 7y ago
        I reread the article. What's super distorted is how they're calculating expenses. Sure the IRS will let you deduct 58c per mile, but that doesn't mean that's what it actually costs. Unless you're stupid, you use an intelligent car like a used Corolla or Fit for a job like this. Maybe a nicely used Prius. A sensible driver would incur expenses of about 20c per mile. So that means their estimate of expenses is about 200% higher than what it should be. Since they don't really provide sufficient data to recalculate their estimates, it's hard to say exactly what effect this might have on their conclusions, but it probably changes them significantly.
        • 7y ago
• myrloc 7y ago
  My brother works for Uber Eats while between gigs in LA TV; he's actively working towards a full-time job. In certain cities, I'd be willing to bet much of the demographic who takes this kind of job are in similar positions. That is, they're looking for full-time work while wanting to make a little income on the side. In my brother's case, he makes minimum wage or better.
• rahimnathwani 7y ago
  "why are people choosing to do this if it pays $0/hr?" The article explains this: "the DoorDash pay model appears aimed at having workers deliver food effectively for free in hopes of collecting tips."
  • MuffinFlavored 7y ago
    does it say what that equates to in terms of net income per hour when it is all said and done?
    • zaroth 7y ago
      Yes it does.
• JacobAldridge 7y ago
  I was surprised to learn recently - and it may just be one of the rideshare companies in one country, or it may be more widespread - that the driver may not be told the final destination until they have accepted and started the ride. So you might keep doing loops back to the airport (or a good restaurant precinct) because most of the jobs are OK; but it’s only when I hop in the car for a $10 ride to the next suburb that you discover you’ll lose money on this ride.
  • fapjacks 7y ago
    Actually, the rideshare folks usually (depending of course on location and personal preference) are after the airport drives. It's the onesie-twosie "bar-hopping" short trips that they don't like.
    • JacobAldridge 7y ago
      That’s what I’m getting at. Airport drives are usually the best, but if you aren’t told the passenger’s destination you could be forced to go all the way out to the airport to accept a tiny fare. Great for me as a consumer; lousy for the driver’s income; and a reason why (to answer the question asked) some drivers / riders accept loss-making fares: they don’t get told in advance how much the trip is worth.
• deleted 7y ago
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• ravenstine 7y ago
  Not all orders are like that, but a lot can be, and it depends on the region. I worked GrubHub back in 2018 when I was between jobs(took some time off to do side projects and did deliveries to make ends meet). These apps play this psychological game on you where you have to accept something like 95% of orders in order to get more quantity and quality(supposedly), so some people are desperate to take all the shitty no-tip orders just so they have a shot at getting better ones. The funny thing was the lowest acceptance rate I had was 3%, and that's because I hung around a rich area of town and waited for those sweet $20-$50 orders that were only a few miles distance. Always felt like I got the golden ticket. I never got fired for having that low of an acceptance rate. There were some fellow drivers I talked to on Reddit that got kind of a bad deal. They would drive for GrubHub or DoorDash at a town in Podunk, Nowhere with low demand and would often get sent those kind of orders that were 10+ miles away for $3. If that happens to be the demand, then you're either screwed taking bad orders or you're screwed if you reject too many of them and you get fired. I think the reason I never got fired is because the LA area, at least while I was doing it, was hot(figuratively) and GrubHub just wanted to fill up the market with as many drivers as possible. In areas where they've fully met the demand, then your arse can be on the line if you reject too many orders. Overall, it was a fun job to have for a while. But it would suck big-time if I had to actually do it for a living. Thank god I'm good enough at software engineering. EDIT: Saw lots of hilarious things happen while I was on the job. It's amazing how many women order food while they're taking a bath and then either forget to answer their phone or they come to the door wrapped in towels. WTF! I once delivered a 2 dozen donuts to this one guy at ~10:30pm who was super high accidentally walked into the door before opening it. Also had some sad moments, like those times I delivered to an elder hospice. This one sick old lady wanted to give me a handsome tip, but I didn't want to accept it because I just felt like she deserved that ice cream in her condition and was just happy I brought it to her. But she insisted because she said it might be her last ice cream. :(
  • Reedx 7y ago
    > the shitty no-tip orders just so they have a shot at getting better ones. Wait a second... Are people not giving a cash tip in these cases? I do no-tip and give cash instead (which I thought was preferred). Is that a bad strategy?
• Thorrez 7y ago
  Does the $0/hour include the tip?
• eik3_de 7y ago
  > This begs an obvious question: why are people choosing to do this if it pays $0/hr? It’s voluntary. Can they find something better to do with their time? Maybe because they want to do something purposeful with their life, even if it doesn't earn them any net cash? Maybe a "Thank you" and a smile from a delivery customer makes for a better day then just being "lazy" and watching TV/consuming social media?
  • michaelt 7y ago
    I find it hard to believe someone who wanted to work for free on something meaningful would choose to volunteer for DoorDash in preference to a normal charity?
    • eik3_de 7y ago
      I don't think most of them were in a situation to say "I want to work for free" and then chose DoorDash (per definition a for-profit job) over volunteering for charity (per definition a non-profit job). I could imagine they found the job, it generated some cash flow and only they later realized that the math doesn't work out.
• onion2k 7y ago
  It'd be much more efficient for DoorDash to work out when a job isn't viable for the driver and either increase the price or refuse to take it.
  • sokoloff 7y ago
    Turning paying customers away for what is (to them) arbitrary and unpredictable reasons is a recipe for your service being perceived as unreliable. “I’m hungry; I’d like to give Doordash some money.” “Computer says no.” “Damn; can’t trust Doordash.”
    • onion2k 7y ago
      This is a fairly simple problem to manage though. The computer shouldn't say "no", it should say "This trip isn't fair on our drivers because the standard fee doesn't cover the costs. Would you like to pay the extended distance fee or cancel this job?" It'd still put some people off, but fewer than you'd think. A lot of people want to be ethical when they're buying things.
      • sokoloff 7y ago
        An extended distance fee being proposed when I live the same distance from the restaurant as the last time I ordered and didn't get charged the fee feels like you're not doing your job in "handling things" for me. People outsource tasks in part because they don't want to think about the details. Where do UPS trucks get their fuel? Do they use diesel or gas? How long between oil changes? Do the drivers get cold in the truck? Where do Door Dash drivers use the bathroom while they're working? Is the grocery store losing money on those end cap bargains? How does the electrician figure out how to not get shocked? How does the plumber solder pipes without burning my house down? How do roofers stay safe while installing their safety anchors? How long do painters' paint brushes last? I don't want to think about any of that; I just want to have a reliable service provided with the details handled for me. Every bit of friction you put into the system with fuel surcharges, baggage fees, resort fees, blackout dates, surge pricing, weekend surcharges, and the like represents both financial and attention loss to me in terms of the value you are providing. (At least surge pricing, weekend call-out surcharges, and blackout dates I can understand as maybe essential to giving an attractive overall proposition.)
• PanosJee 7y ago
  People are not automata. Usually we are not rational
• zaroth 7y ago
  It does not pay $0/hr. Even the TFA states this. Only if you first disregard 88% of the total pay (the tips) and then subtract an overstated expense line-item do you end up with a number close to $0. The actual number is that Average Gross Earnings are $18.54 per hour. Obviously there are also some expenses, but average expense is not actually $0.54/mile. $0.54/mile is what you get to deduct from your income on your tax return. (So there's actually a tax advantage here too.) In other words, the guaranteed amount covers more than your expenses, your earnings come from tips, sometimes in the form of cash, and you get a preferential tax deduction on top. It's actually a great deal. The simple answer to your question is that DoorDash has so many drivers because the job is easy to do and pays well. But for ideological reasons, some people think this kind of employment arrangement should be illegal.