6 ms·

Hyundai and Uber Unveil Autonomous Pods, EVTOL Aircraft, & Hub Ecosystem at CES

61 points by apsec112 7y ago

CoolGuySteve 7y ago
It's funny this news just came out. In my part of Brooklyn, loud low flying helicopters from Blade and Uber have been a complete nuisance all through the holidays. People have been taking them from south Manhattan to JFK. They're not supposed to fly lower than 1000 feet but I can read the numbers on the bottom these things so clearly they're flying lower than that to save fuel, maybe around 500 feet.
- toomuchtodo 7y ago
  Check the ADS-B historical data to see if they're sub 1000 feet AGL, if so, report to NYC and FAA authorities.
  - ovi256 7y ago
    It's sweet that helicopters have ADS-B Out now in the US, I don't think they do yet in Europe. I would be very curious to check out the helicopters that fly to and from a nearby heliport.
  - FabHK 7y ago
    Does ADS-B report AGL, MSL, or pressure altitude? I thought it was the latter (like the transponder), but I might well be wrong.
    - toomuchtodo 7y ago
      Reports both geometric and barometric/pressure altitudes. You can work back to AGL from geometric and GPS coordinates. https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/programs/adsb/faq/#g7 https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/programs/adsb/faq/#g7
filereaper 7y ago
>5 to 7 minutes for recharging The article is light on specifics but this stood out to me, most Tesla's take longer to charge. I'd imagine an aircraft would need more power than a Tesla, so how are they transferring energy so fast that automobiles can't do it but aircraft can?
- noodlesUK 7y ago
  It may not be a particularly large battery, as it’s got to take off vertically. It’s not a very long range either, just short hops.
  - pishpash 7y ago
    Seems like not having enough range is a much bigger problem than for a car.
- clouddrover 7y ago
  Different battery chemistries have different C-rates, which is the rate at which a battery can be charged and discharged: https://web.mit.edu/evt/summary_battery_specifications.pdf https://web.mit.edu/evt/summary_battery_specifications.pdf https://batteryuniversity.com/index.php/learn/article/what_is_the_c_rate https://batteryuniversity.com/index.php/learn/article/what_i... And generally bigger battery packs can charge at higher kilowatts. Here's an electric ferry with a 4.1 MWh battery which can charge at up 6 megawatts. 600 amps at 10,000 volts: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE_M1n-ClOA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE_M1n-ClOA So, like the ferry, these aircraft probably have big batteries that they charge enough to get to the next destination with a buffer for emergencies. The closer you get to 100% state of charge the slower the system will charge in order to protect the battery.
- michaelt 7y ago
  Under absolutely ideal conditions, a Tesla on a 250kW charger for 8.5 minutes can regain 40% of battery capacity [1] So, if you carry 2.5x the battery you need, so a 40% charge is all you ever need, then maybe? Although obviously, that would add to your weight, reducing your range. If you were willing to hook up a supply of cooling water while charging, you might be able to do somewhat better - one of the key limiting factors in fast charging is the batteries heating up. [1] https://insideevs.com/news/356710/tesla-model-3-test-v3-supercharger/ https://insideevs.com/news/356710/tesla-model-3-test-v3-supe...
starpilot 7y ago
Top speed is 180 mph, range 60 mi. For comparison, a carbon Cabri G2 helo cruises at 100 mph with a range of over 400 miles.
- fsloth 7y ago
  60 mi range is pretty good for lots of use cases.
- Already__Taken 7y ago
  That's only 1 passenger and no baggage by the looks of it, this thing does that with 4. i'm not sure what you're trying to prove?
CaptainZapp 7y ago
Wouldn't it make more sense for Uber to try to achieve profitability instead of chasing pipe dreams, which will never fly? Sure, you can employ dirty tactics to fight regulations, government agencies and cities. But I don't think you can do that when it comes to (ab-)using air space. Even drones are about to be regulated. This will be shot down, not literally, in a jiffy.
- ctack 7y ago
  Uber is aiming to be a big player in the future autonomous space, but seeing how difficult a problem level 5 autonomy is proving for cars, they are looking at the sky taxi thing instead because autonomy is going to be actually achievable in that space.
  - CaptainZapp 7y ago
    I don't know about the US, but herearound the sky and what flies there is massively regulated. And those are regulations you don't want to fuck around with. You may be, for example, flying over military controlled airspace. I don't see it that anybody can just jump into his flying car and just fuzz around at her or his discretion. There's a reason why flight plans are filed for every flight.
    - ctack 7y ago
      Regulation is something autonomous vehicles will deal with a lot better than human pilots.
      - halfjoking 7y ago
        That is Uber's secret sauce - they defeat regulation better than anyone
    - raxxorrax 7y ago
      But automating navigation for helicopters is much easier than for cars. At least until every other person has a personal helicopter, but even then the problem is probably much easier to solve.
superbrane 7y ago
It looks like it is more marketing than reality :). The keywords from their description "piloted initially and eventually autonomous"
- Already__Taken 7y ago
  An electric aircraft is still a big deal.
C14L 7y ago
Drones are loud, because they have to move a lot of air in order to stay in the air. There is no way around that noise. Flying taxis and the like are only good for the few people sitting in one. They are very bad for everybody else.
heyflyguy 7y ago
The more I read these articles, the more I want to start some kind of citizen regulatory or acceptance body. I'd develop environmental conditions, failure modes and noise sensitivity tests for all of these air taxis to abide by. As a manned aviator and after having spent 10+ years now playing with drones and working with drones, I am very skeptical of these safety claims and noise promises.
- mdorazio 7y ago
  You want to recreate the FAA? They already regulate and sign off on most of the things you mentioned before aircraft carrying passengers can fly.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - heyflyguy 7y ago
    I think what I want is something like the AOPA or AMA, but for consumers / citizens.
- walrus01 7y ago
  I would be very surprised if the FAA and Canadian, western European civil aviation regulators don't require something functionally equivalent to being able to operate with 25% of the lift rotors dead or disabled (an even higher degree of redundancy than a four armed, coaxial eight motor/prop octocopter filming platform today, which can lose 1 out of 8 motors and likely land safely), plus also a ballistic parachute. Something like what is mounted in the top side of a Cirrus VisionJet. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cirrus_Vision_SF50 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cirrus_Vision_SF50
- nradov 7y ago
  The FAA accepts regulatory input from private citizens. Submit a formal petition for rulemaking. https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/rulemaking/petition/#rulemaking https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/rulemaking/petition...
blendo 7y ago
4 passengers at 180 miles/hr for 60 minutes. For that, I’d guess they’d need upwards of 200 kW of battery, no? Not gonna happen until batteries give us 1000 Wh/kg or so. In year 2030, maybe.
- walrus01 7y ago
  They are doing the design and engineering work of the craft itself, as a separate thing from the batteries. I think a big assumption on the part of a lot of these is that the battery Wh/kg and Wh/litre ratio will dramatically improve in the future, and they'll be able to take those new batteries from their manufacturers and integrate it into their ready-to-go aircraft. Lots of other mechanical and airframe engineering work to do in the meantime while waiting for better batteries. Software/automation controls related to operating in busy air space. Stuff like the tilt rotor mechanism, avionics and radio systems, automated navigation, soundproofing, seats and interior, airframe carbon fiber layup, etc. They can create a finished and highly tested craft with all of the engineering problems solved for various subsystems except the batteries. I don't see any problem with designing something that currently only has 20 minutes of flight time with a battery that is X watt-hours capacity, N size, Y dimensions and Z weight. An aircraft manufacturer as we know it today doesn't manufacture a lot of the very complex and most costly subsystems of their craft. Best example would be small jet turbines, or petrol powered engines. They rely on engine manufacturing specialists for that. My theory is that it's unlikely a VTOL-air-taxi-manufacturer will become so vertically integrated that it manufactures its own special batteries. Similar to how a small business jet manufacturer today buys turbofan engines from engine-manufacturing-specialists, they'll be buying batteries from companies dedicated to the sole purpose of manufacturing high Wh/kg aircraft batteries. Provided that the new magical future battery can be similarly cooled and managed and will fit into the available specifications of "X times 5 watt hours", N, Y and Z, they can do all of the R&D except for the battery, and hope that the market and technology catch up with them to create a 80 minute flight time craft.

61 points by apsec112 7y ago

It's funny this news just came out. In my part of Brooklyn, loud low flying helicopters from Blade and Uber have been a complete nuisance all through the holidays. People have been taking them from south Manhattan to JFK. They're not supposed to fly lower than 1000 feet but I can read the numbers on the bottom these things so clearly they're flying lower than that to save fuel, maybe around 500 feet.

toomuchtodo 7y ago
Check the ADS-B historical data to see if they're sub 1000 feet AGL, if so, report to NYC and FAA authorities.
- ovi256 7y ago
  It's sweet that helicopters have ADS-B Out now in the US, I don't think they do yet in Europe. I would be very curious to check out the helicopters that fly to and from a nearby heliport.
- FabHK 7y ago
  Does ADS-B report AGL, MSL, or pressure altitude? I thought it was the latter (like the transponder), but I might well be wrong.
  - toomuchtodo 7y ago
    Reports both geometric and barometric/pressure altitudes. You can work back to AGL from geometric and GPS coordinates. https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/programs/adsb/faq/#g7 https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/programs/adsb/faq/#g7

filereaper 7y ago

>5 to 7 minutes for recharging The article is light on specifics but this stood out to me, most Tesla's take longer to charge. I'd imagine an aircraft would need more power than a Tesla, so how are they transferring energy so fast that automobiles can't do it but aircraft can?

noodlesUK 7y ago
It may not be a particularly large battery, as it’s got to take off vertically. It’s not a very long range either, just short hops.
- pishpash 7y ago
  Seems like not having enough range is a much bigger problem than for a car.
clouddrover 7y ago
Different battery chemistries have different C-rates, which is the rate at which a battery can be charged and discharged: https://web.mit.edu/evt/summary_battery_specifications.pdf https://web.mit.edu/evt/summary_battery_specifications.pdf https://batteryuniversity.com/index.php/learn/article/what_is_the_c_rate https://batteryuniversity.com/index.php/learn/article/what_i... And generally bigger battery packs can charge at higher kilowatts. Here's an electric ferry with a 4.1 MWh battery which can charge at up 6 megawatts. 600 amps at 10,000 volts: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE_M1n-ClOA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE_M1n-ClOA So, like the ferry, these aircraft probably have big batteries that they charge enough to get to the next destination with a buffer for emergencies. The closer you get to 100% state of charge the slower the system will charge in order to protect the battery.
michaelt 7y ago
Under absolutely ideal conditions, a Tesla on a 250kW charger for 8.5 minutes can regain 40% of battery capacity [1] So, if you carry 2.5x the battery you need, so a 40% charge is all you ever need, then maybe? Although obviously, that would add to your weight, reducing your range. If you were willing to hook up a supply of cooling water while charging, you might be able to do somewhat better - one of the key limiting factors in fast charging is the batteries heating up. [1] https://insideevs.com/news/356710/tesla-model-3-test-v3-supercharger/ https://insideevs.com/news/356710/tesla-model-3-test-v3-supe...

starpilot 7y ago

Top speed is 180 mph, range 60 mi. For comparison, a carbon Cabri G2 helo cruises at 100 mph with a range of over 400 miles.

fsloth 7y ago
60 mi range is pretty good for lots of use cases.
Already__Taken 7y ago
That's only 1 passenger and no baggage by the looks of it, this thing does that with 4. i'm not sure what you're trying to prove?

CaptainZapp 7y ago

Wouldn't it make more sense for Uber to try to achieve profitability instead of chasing pipe dreams, which will never fly? Sure, you can employ dirty tactics to fight regulations, government agencies and cities. But I don't think you can do that when it comes to (ab-)using air space. Even drones are about to be regulated. This will be shot down, not literally, in a jiffy.

ctack 7y ago
Uber is aiming to be a big player in the future autonomous space, but seeing how difficult a problem level 5 autonomy is proving for cars, they are looking at the sky taxi thing instead because autonomy is going to be actually achievable in that space.
- CaptainZapp 7y ago
  I don't know about the US, but herearound the sky and what flies there is massively regulated. And those are regulations you don't want to fuck around with. You may be, for example, flying over military controlled airspace. I don't see it that anybody can just jump into his flying car and just fuzz around at her or his discretion. There's a reason why flight plans are filed for every flight.
  - ctack 7y ago
    Regulation is something autonomous vehicles will deal with a lot better than human pilots.
    - halfjoking 7y ago
      That is Uber's secret sauce - they defeat regulation better than anyone
  - raxxorrax 7y ago
    But automating navigation for helicopters is much easier than for cars. At least until every other person has a personal helicopter, but even then the problem is probably much easier to solve.

superbrane 7y ago

It looks like it is more marketing than reality :). The keywords from their description "piloted initially and eventually autonomous"

Already__Taken 7y ago
An electric aircraft is still a big deal.

C14L 7y ago

Drones are loud, because they have to move a lot of air in order to stay in the air. There is no way around that noise. Flying taxis and the like are only good for the few people sitting in one. They are very bad for everybody else.

heyflyguy 7y ago

The more I read these articles, the more I want to start some kind of citizen regulatory or acceptance body. I'd develop environmental conditions, failure modes and noise sensitivity tests for all of these air taxis to abide by. As a manned aviator and after having spent 10+ years now playing with drones and working with drones, I am very skeptical of these safety claims and noise promises.

mdorazio 7y ago
You want to recreate the FAA? They already regulate and sign off on most of the things you mentioned before aircraft carrying passengers can fly.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- heyflyguy 7y ago
  I think what I want is something like the AOPA or AMA, but for consumers / citizens.
walrus01 7y ago
I would be very surprised if the FAA and Canadian, western European civil aviation regulators don't require something functionally equivalent to being able to operate with 25% of the lift rotors dead or disabled (an even higher degree of redundancy than a four armed, coaxial eight motor/prop octocopter filming platform today, which can lose 1 out of 8 motors and likely land safely), plus also a ballistic parachute. Something like what is mounted in the top side of a Cirrus VisionJet. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cirrus_Vision_SF50 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cirrus_Vision_SF50
nradov 7y ago
The FAA accepts regulatory input from private citizens. Submit a formal petition for rulemaking. https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/rulemaking/petition/#rulemaking https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/rulemaking/petition...

blendo 7y ago

4 passengers at 180 miles/hr for 60 minutes. For that, I’d guess they’d need upwards of 200 kW of battery, no? Not gonna happen until batteries give us 1000 Wh/kg or so. In year 2030, maybe.

walrus01 7y ago
They are doing the design and engineering work of the craft itself, as a separate thing from the batteries. I think a big assumption on the part of a lot of these is that the battery Wh/kg and Wh/litre ratio will dramatically improve in the future, and they'll be able to take those new batteries from their manufacturers and integrate it into their ready-to-go aircraft. Lots of other mechanical and airframe engineering work to do in the meantime while waiting for better batteries. Software/automation controls related to operating in busy air space. Stuff like the tilt rotor mechanism, avionics and radio systems, automated navigation, soundproofing, seats and interior, airframe carbon fiber layup, etc. They can create a finished and highly tested craft with all of the engineering problems solved for various subsystems except the batteries. I don't see any problem with designing something that currently only has 20 minutes of flight time with a battery that is X watt-hours capacity, N size, Y dimensions and Z weight. An aircraft manufacturer as we know it today doesn't manufacture a lot of the very complex and most costly subsystems of their craft. Best example would be small jet turbines, or petrol powered engines. They rely on engine manufacturing specialists for that. My theory is that it's unlikely a VTOL-air-taxi-manufacturer will become so vertically integrated that it manufactures its own special batteries. Similar to how a small business jet manufacturer today buys turbofan engines from engine-manufacturing-specialists, they'll be buying batteries from companies dedicated to the sole purpose of manufacturing high Wh/kg aircraft batteries. Provided that the new magical future battery can be similarly cooled and managed and will fit into the available specifications of "X times 5 watt hours", N, Y and Z, they can do all of the R&D except for the battery, and hope that the market and technology catch up with them to create a 80 minute flight time craft.