8 ms·

Sure, but Google/Android has added fine grain GPS permissions in Android 10+ so we have the option to say "just track when using app" instead of "no" or "all th

Sure, but Google/Android has added fine grain GPS permissions in Android 10+ so we have the option to say "just track when using app" instead of "no" or "all the time". The problem, now, is rolling it out due to fragmentation.

jadbox 7y ago
Not only do I like having the ability to limit GPS per app, but I can also disable background data and enforce 'energy saver mode' (aka make background tasks infrequent) on an individual app basis.
- chewz 7y ago
  We can also easily mock GPS on Android and there are apps for that.
  - nomel 7y ago
    Great, you've covered 0.1% of the Android user base.
    - jayd16 7y ago
      Are we talking about things we like, use and do, or are we in a pissing contest about who's team is winning?
      - lorenzhs 7y ago
        We're talking about privacy protections for all users, not just HN users. The change in iOS 13 doesn't allow you to do anything that wasn't possible before, the settings have existed for years. It "just" periodically asks if you really want to let that app access your location in the background all the time, showing you a map where it did so in the last few days. And according to the article, people are saying "no" a lot. Users will disallow tracking if prompted. The average user won't go out of their way to spoof location data, though.
  - heavyset_go 7y ago
    Apps can detect this, and some apps will ban you if you mock your location.
    - abeyer 7y ago
      Wait, they'll ban me from their privacy-invading malvertising? Where do I sign up?
      - judge2020 7y ago
        https://www.pokemongo.com/ https://www.pokemongo.com/
        Snetry 7y ago
        that's a special case in my opinion since the gameplay revolved around your location
      - heavyset_go 7y ago
        Some location-based dating apps will do this.
  - ericlewis 7y ago
    yay "solutions"
- muppetman 7y ago
  Except you can't for Google Play Services, the key "app" that every other app needs for all the Google APIs. So sure, individual apps can't get your local, but Google still can almost always.
cpuguy83 7y ago
Reading this it seems to imply that iOS doesn't support this (sorry if not!), but it does and has for a very long time.
- ericlewis 7y ago
  wrong implication, you're right.
RKearney 7y ago
iOS also has this feature so I’m not sure what your point is.
- tomjakubowski 7y ago
  I think their point was that Android users are now similarly empowered to block "offline" tracking. ("offline" meaning "when the app isn't open"). Further, maybe it's that true if that feature were a true existential threat to Google, they wouldn't have implemented it in Android.
egypturnash 7y ago
So we'll start seeing that on a significant percentage of Android devices around, um... 2025, then? Man I do not miss the horrible support for updates in that ecosystem one bit. https://www.statista.com/statistics/271774/share-of-android-platforms-on-mobile-devices-with-android-os/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/271774/share-of-android-...
- _jal 7y ago
  I don't think Google originally planned it this way, but their release strategy gives them an interesting gradient of users that I think benefits them. (This is entirely off the cuff, I may be sticking my foot in my mouth.) Early adapters, who are more likely to engage with the bigger questions raised by tech, are likely to use new devices with the latest revision of what Google thinks you should share with the advertising world - lately, this has been giving users slightly more control. Meanwhile, older and cheaper devices (a much larger segment) mostly run older OSes that more more data-sponge-friendly. So the picky and wealthier customers have reason to tell others "Google is getting better" while everyone else keeps feeding the beast.
  - DevKoala 7y ago
    A wonderful system were the tech illiterate remains an everlasting source of personal information for sale on ad exchanges.
  - 1propionyl 7y ago
    Yes, you're right. The inference you haven't made yet is what the proportions of the users in the "early adopter" and "general user" categories are in countries that are NOT the United States or Europe. Hint: most of Google's Android users aren't in the US or Europe at all. Instead they're in countries where there are much more pressing social, political, or economic issues for governments to address that easily sideline privacy concerns with minimal lobbying funds. On the flip side of this, Apple can focus on privacy and security as a brand largely because their customer base consists almost entirely of the affluent and business class of society worldwide. Everyone who would otherwise be exploitable is priced out.
pininja 7y ago
This is great, and everything you’ve said is true. But the change in iOS13 is the regularly occurring pop up alert to prompt users to pick a lower permission for apps they don’t use often that are also tracking location. As others have mentioned, iOS has had the fine grain permission for a while. What’s new is the regular prompt.
- LawnGnome 7y ago
  Android 10 also has a similar prompt via notifications.
  - ericlewis 7y ago
    thankfully most people use android 10 as regularly as later iOS versions.
shdh 7y ago
Average users won't disable tracking unless prompted.
- aiiane 7y ago
  Which is why Android now has a prompt.
dangus 7y ago
All Android phones before P are vulnerable to a flaw that allows background camera use: https://www.theverge.com/2018/3/7/17091104/android-p-prevents-apps-using-mic-camera-idle-background https://www.theverge.com/2018/3/7/17091104/android-p-prevent... That might actually be the majority of active Android devices if you look at the marketshare statistics. I think it's actually somewhat embarrassing that the tech industry hasn't been able to provide a low cost, reasonably secure smartphone platform that can be used for more than a year or two. The only people who can remain secure are the ones who can afford either new Android phones or slightly less new iPhones. Security is like a luxury item, and the worst part is that most people don't even realize it.
- osmarks 7y ago
  There are GNU/Linux phones around now (the Librem 5, though it may still be stuck as WIP, and the PinePhone, which I think had a first batch sent out a while ago), but the app support will be lacking and they'll likely be stuck as niche forever.
- rienbdj 7y ago
  There was windows phone, but the market wanted apps!
  - dangus 7y ago
    Related to this, I almost wanted to mention the “sins” of the major platforms. Android: not fixing fragmentation after all this time. Essentially, people with less money get less security. Apple: not making true budget phones with the same lengthy support windows, though this might change as they emphasize services. Microsoft: leaving the smartphone market entirely. I used to use Windows Phone and it was clearly better than Android. Android was slow and getting updates was a pipe dream. Windows Phone was like a less locked-down iPhone, and around Windows Phone 8.1 the app marketplace wasn’t half bad. Had Microsoft put out quality flagship phones consistently on a yearly basis on all four major US carriers, they’d still be making smartphones. But people who wanted windows phones were stuck waiting for Microsoft to reorganize Nokia while they mostly crapped out budget phones and had one or two outdated flagship exclusive to a particular carrier. Windows Phone 10 arrived too late, it wasn’t as good of an update as 8.1, and it arrived after a long drought of phones.
2ion 7y ago
It is almost irrelevant for existing users what has been added in Android version n + 1, because they will never get updated to n + 1. The joys of the Android vendor ecosystem. Even very expensive phones like Sony get about 1 (mid) or 2 (high-end) major upgrade only, and that's still not guaranteed. Project Treble did nothing to fix this.
- arkh 7y ago
  > The joys of the Android vendor ecosystem. Even when going with official Google phones: my Nexus 5 is way out of date OS-wise.
  - pta2002 7y ago
    Your Nexus 5 came out 7 years ago, it's unreasonable to expect that the latest Android would even run properly on it when the rest of the world has moved on.
    - arkh 7y ago
      > it's unreasonable Is it? Slower than on more recent ones I agree. But processors architecture and components has not changed a lot. If Microsoft manages 10 years on wildly more diverse hardware with their OS, I don't see why it is not possible on official Google phones.
    - diffeomorphism 7y ago
      Why? A 7 year old midrange PC or laptop will run latest Windows or Linux just fine.
    - baq 7y ago
      my iphone 6s receives iOS updates to this day. it eats through the battery like there's no tomorrow but it works well otherwise.
  - kuschku 7y ago
    My Google Pixel 1 stopped getting even security updates recently, and it's the last flagship Google phone with headphone port.
_bxg1 7y ago
Google Services commonly exempt themselves from those kinds of "privacy protections". Google's happy protecting your privacy from other companies, just as long as they continue to get special access.
- alex_young 7y ago
  I got one of those today for Waze. I set it to only collect when it's in use.
  - _bxg1 7y ago
    I'm not talking about Google's apps, I'm talking about Google Services. This is the system library that sits just above Android itself and is used as a dependency by most third-party Android apps these days. An app asks for your location? They aren't asking Android for it, they're asking Google for it. See more details here: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/07/googles-iron-grip-on-android-controlling-open-source-by-any-means-necessary/4/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/07/googles-iron-grip-on...
cameldrv 7y ago
I really wish iOS and Android would implement coarse grain location. My weather app doesn't need to know where I am exactly, within a couple of miles is usually fine. The "find the nearest store" just needs to know within a few blocks. The problem with GPS level location is that if I'm at home, I'm nearly personally identified.
- Accacin 7y ago
  Don't quote me on this, but I believe iOS already has this.. But it's the developer that needs to say they'll use this type of location data - which of course they won't.
  - thu2111 7y ago
    Android has had that distinction since version 1, actually. https://developers.google.com/maps/documentation/android-sdk/location#location_permissions https://developers.google.com/maps/documentation/android-sdk... Some apps do use coarse permission (which maps roughly to wifi/cell tower location).
    - cameldrv 7y ago
      Yes, but I can't say "sorry, you're only getting coarse location" to an app that wants precise location permission.
- adrianN 7y ago
  If I know the rough location of your work and the rough location of your home I can almost certainly identify you: https://crypto.stanford.edu/~pgolle/papers/commute.pdf https://crypto.stanford.edu/~pgolle/papers/commute.pdf
1propionyl 7y ago
iOS has had this for several major versions.

jadbox 7y ago

Not only do I like having the ability to limit GPS per app, but I can also disable background data and enforce 'energy saver mode' (aka make background tasks infrequent) on an individual app basis.

chewz 7y ago
We can also easily mock GPS on Android and there are apps for that.
- nomel 7y ago
  Great, you've covered 0.1% of the Android user base.
  - jayd16 7y ago
    Are we talking about things we like, use and do, or are we in a pissing contest about who's team is winning?
    - lorenzhs 7y ago
      We're talking about privacy protections for all users, not just HN users. The change in iOS 13 doesn't allow you to do anything that wasn't possible before, the settings have existed for years. It "just" periodically asks if you really want to let that app access your location in the background all the time, showing you a map where it did so in the last few days. And according to the article, people are saying "no" a lot. Users will disallow tracking if prompted. The average user won't go out of their way to spoof location data, though.
- heavyset_go 7y ago
  Apps can detect this, and some apps will ban you if you mock your location.
  - abeyer 7y ago
    Wait, they'll ban me from their privacy-invading malvertising? Where do I sign up?
    - judge2020 7y ago
      https://www.pokemongo.com/ https://www.pokemongo.com/
      - Snetry 7y ago
        that's a special case in my opinion since the gameplay revolved around your location
    - heavyset_go 7y ago
      Some location-based dating apps will do this.
- ericlewis 7y ago
  yay "solutions"
muppetman 7y ago
Except you can't for Google Play Services, the key "app" that every other app needs for all the Google APIs. So sure, individual apps can't get your local, but Google still can almost always.

cpuguy83 7y ago

Reading this it seems to imply that iOS doesn't support this (sorry if not!), but it does and has for a very long time.

ericlewis 7y ago
wrong implication, you're right.

RKearney 7y ago

iOS also has this feature so I’m not sure what your point is.

tomjakubowski 7y ago
I think their point was that Android users are now similarly empowered to block "offline" tracking. ("offline" meaning "when the app isn't open"). Further, maybe it's that true if that feature were a true existential threat to Google, they wouldn't have implemented it in Android.

egypturnash 7y ago

So we'll start seeing that on a significant percentage of Android devices around, um... 2025, then? Man I do not miss the horrible support for updates in that ecosystem one bit. https://www.statista.com/statistics/271774/share-of-android-platforms-on-mobile-devices-with-android-os/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/271774/share-of-android-...

_jal 7y ago
I don't think Google originally planned it this way, but their release strategy gives them an interesting gradient of users that I think benefits them. (This is entirely off the cuff, I may be sticking my foot in my mouth.) Early adapters, who are more likely to engage with the bigger questions raised by tech, are likely to use new devices with the latest revision of what Google thinks you should share with the advertising world - lately, this has been giving users slightly more control. Meanwhile, older and cheaper devices (a much larger segment) mostly run older OSes that more more data-sponge-friendly. So the picky and wealthier customers have reason to tell others "Google is getting better" while everyone else keeps feeding the beast.
- DevKoala 7y ago
  A wonderful system were the tech illiterate remains an everlasting source of personal information for sale on ad exchanges.
- 1propionyl 7y ago
  Yes, you're right. The inference you haven't made yet is what the proportions of the users in the "early adopter" and "general user" categories are in countries that are NOT the United States or Europe. Hint: most of Google's Android users aren't in the US or Europe at all. Instead they're in countries where there are much more pressing social, political, or economic issues for governments to address that easily sideline privacy concerns with minimal lobbying funds. On the flip side of this, Apple can focus on privacy and security as a brand largely because their customer base consists almost entirely of the affluent and business class of society worldwide. Everyone who would otherwise be exploitable is priced out.

pininja 7y ago

This is great, and everything you’ve said is true. But the change in iOS13 is the regularly occurring pop up alert to prompt users to pick a lower permission for apps they don’t use often that are also tracking location. As others have mentioned, iOS has had the fine grain permission for a while. What’s new is the regular prompt.

LawnGnome 7y ago
Android 10 also has a similar prompt via notifications.
- ericlewis 7y ago
  thankfully most people use android 10 as regularly as later iOS versions.

shdh 7y ago

Average users won't disable tracking unless prompted.

aiiane 7y ago
Which is why Android now has a prompt.

dangus 7y ago

All Android phones before P are vulnerable to a flaw that allows background camera use: https://www.theverge.com/2018/3/7/17091104/android-p-prevents-apps-using-mic-camera-idle-background https://www.theverge.com/2018/3/7/17091104/android-p-prevent... That might actually be the majority of active Android devices if you look at the marketshare statistics. I think it's actually somewhat embarrassing that the tech industry hasn't been able to provide a low cost, reasonably secure smartphone platform that can be used for more than a year or two. The only people who can remain secure are the ones who can afford either new Android phones or slightly less new iPhones. Security is like a luxury item, and the worst part is that most people don't even realize it.

osmarks 7y ago
There are GNU/Linux phones around now (the Librem 5, though it may still be stuck as WIP, and the PinePhone, which I think had a first batch sent out a while ago), but the app support will be lacking and they'll likely be stuck as niche forever.
rienbdj 7y ago
There was windows phone, but the market wanted apps!
- dangus 7y ago
  Related to this, I almost wanted to mention the “sins” of the major platforms. Android: not fixing fragmentation after all this time. Essentially, people with less money get less security. Apple: not making true budget phones with the same lengthy support windows, though this might change as they emphasize services. Microsoft: leaving the smartphone market entirely. I used to use Windows Phone and it was clearly better than Android. Android was slow and getting updates was a pipe dream. Windows Phone was like a less locked-down iPhone, and around Windows Phone 8.1 the app marketplace wasn’t half bad. Had Microsoft put out quality flagship phones consistently on a yearly basis on all four major US carriers, they’d still be making smartphones. But people who wanted windows phones were stuck waiting for Microsoft to reorganize Nokia while they mostly crapped out budget phones and had one or two outdated flagship exclusive to a particular carrier. Windows Phone 10 arrived too late, it wasn’t as good of an update as 8.1, and it arrived after a long drought of phones.

2ion 7y ago

It is almost irrelevant for existing users what has been added in Android version n + 1, because they will never get updated to n + 1. The joys of the Android vendor ecosystem. Even very expensive phones like Sony get about 1 (mid) or 2 (high-end) major upgrade only, and that's still not guaranteed. Project Treble did nothing to fix this.

arkh 7y ago
> The joys of the Android vendor ecosystem. Even when going with official Google phones: my Nexus 5 is way out of date OS-wise.
- pta2002 7y ago
  Your Nexus 5 came out 7 years ago, it's unreasonable to expect that the latest Android would even run properly on it when the rest of the world has moved on.
  - arkh 7y ago
    > it's unreasonable Is it? Slower than on more recent ones I agree. But processors architecture and components has not changed a lot. If Microsoft manages 10 years on wildly more diverse hardware with their OS, I don't see why it is not possible on official Google phones.
  - diffeomorphism 7y ago
    Why? A 7 year old midrange PC or laptop will run latest Windows or Linux just fine.
  - baq 7y ago
    my iphone 6s receives iOS updates to this day. it eats through the battery like there's no tomorrow but it works well otherwise.
- kuschku 7y ago
  My Google Pixel 1 stopped getting even security updates recently, and it's the last flagship Google phone with headphone port.

_bxg1 7y ago

Google Services commonly exempt themselves from those kinds of "privacy protections". Google's happy protecting your privacy from other companies, just as long as they continue to get special access.

alex_young 7y ago
I got one of those today for Waze. I set it to only collect when it's in use.
- _bxg1 7y ago
  I'm not talking about Google's apps, I'm talking about Google Services. This is the system library that sits just above Android itself and is used as a dependency by most third-party Android apps these days. An app asks for your location? They aren't asking Android for it, they're asking Google for it. See more details here: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/07/googles-iron-grip-on-android-controlling-open-source-by-any-means-necessary/4/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/07/googles-iron-grip-on...

cameldrv 7y ago

I really wish iOS and Android would implement coarse grain location. My weather app doesn't need to know where I am exactly, within a couple of miles is usually fine. The "find the nearest store" just needs to know within a few blocks. The problem with GPS level location is that if I'm at home, I'm nearly personally identified.

Accacin 7y ago
Don't quote me on this, but I believe iOS already has this.. But it's the developer that needs to say they'll use this type of location data - which of course they won't.
- thu2111 7y ago
  Android has had that distinction since version 1, actually. https://developers.google.com/maps/documentation/android-sdk/location#location_permissions https://developers.google.com/maps/documentation/android-sdk... Some apps do use coarse permission (which maps roughly to wifi/cell tower location).
  - cameldrv 7y ago
    Yes, but I can't say "sorry, you're only getting coarse location" to an app that wants precise location permission.
adrianN 7y ago
If I know the rough location of your work and the rough location of your home I can almost certainly identify you: https://crypto.stanford.edu/~pgolle/papers/commute.pdf https://crypto.stanford.edu/~pgolle/papers/commute.pdf

1propionyl 7y ago

iOS has had this for several major versions.