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In Silicon Valley, some men say cosmetic procedures are essential to a career
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- thatfrenchguy 7y ago> Only the previous week, he says, he returned from a 10-day trip to Italy’s Amalfi Coast We really need to start CO2 emissions from flying / day of vacation, because 10 days to Italy is really ridiculous.
- mistrial9 7y agoHow about four days in Nepal for a wedding, from California, because "status"
- selimthegrim 7y agoSome of us have families that can’t get visas to the States trivially. Lighten up, Francis.
- scarejunba 7y agoWouldn't you prefer _longer_ vacations? With shorter vacations you're incurring the carbon cost for flights for less value. Unless that's what you were implying.
- longerthoughts 7y agoThey were making a joke about the phrasing because it sounds like it was 10 days of travel to reach Italy.
- scarejunba 7y agoIt's bloody obvious now that you mention it and I feel like an idiot for having missed it haha.
- sjg007 7y agoSounds relaxing... wish I could relax.
- maximente 7y agoassuming you plan to return does it matter if the trip is 1 day, 10 days, 100 days? you still have two flights.
- longerthoughts 7y agoThey were making a joke about the phrasing because it sounds like it was 10 days of travel to reach Italy.
- Axsuul 7y agoPerfect example of a Dad joke, however.
- truculent 7y agoyou can fit a lot more 10-day trips into 365 days than 100-day trips
- thatfrenchguy 7y agoPersonal benefit versus cost to the planet ? You’re emitting 10x less CO2 per day if you stay there 10x as long :-)
- batt4good 7y agoYep, yet another reason I have zero interest in ever working in SV... What "adult" would actually want to put up with this kind of garbage and/or garbage people that permeates the valley?
- bdcravens 7y agoThis just in: there's bias based on appearance. Outside of SV, being the wrong skin tone, wrong gender, not pretty enough, too pretty, not tall enough, etc are all attributes that have been unfairly affecting workers, since, well, forever.
- gnulinux 7y agoYou would have thought when you're engineer you'd only be judged based on your technical skills, your work output, performance, efficiency, ideas, design etc. Most of my team is remote so for all I know they're just those things I listed above, and a voice and a pixelated set of images Google hangouts show me. It's devastating that people still need to be discriminated in this industry.
- 0xff00ffee 7y agoYour list has one glaring exclusion: social skills. If you're a brilliant programmer, but an asshole and proud of it (or unaware of it), then yes, you will not get far on your skills alone. Whether we like it or not, we are all part of a society, and those who choose to rebel against that, well, that's thier choice and accept the consequences. (Follow up: you can't really hide behind remote work if you lack social skills. Possibly, but not very likely.) EDIT: Snark removal.
- anon9001 7y agoRemote work probably makes social skills more important, because your coworkers lose the benefit of non-verbal cues. I work remotely and I try to convey a lot of personality and availability to stay integrated with the team.
- 0xff00ffee 7y agoGood point! Email especially. I work with 10 different countries, and programmers from England respond differently to my word choices than programmers from China, Japan, Holland, or India. I find I have to be painfully concise and free from humor, idiom or analogy. It's tough!
- sukilot 7y agoWhat a weasel-worded title! Better title: "In some places, some people say some things"
- pc86 7y agoThat's not what a weasel word is. Weasel words are things like "potentially" and "possibly" that you can put into otherwise declaratory statements so that when you're shown to be wrong you can fall back on "well I said possibly!" or similar.
- QuercusMax 7y agoSaying "some men" is a pretty weasely phrasing. "Some" could mean 2. It could mean millions! I bet "some men in Silicon Valley" are doing all kinds of things. Some men in Silicon Valley enjoy eating Durian. Some men in Silicon Valley enjoy being punched in the testicles. That doesn't mean anything, though.
- mrec 7y agoI haven't read TFA because the title alone is horrific enough, but it sounds awfully like a what PG calls a "submarine". http://www.paulgraham.com/submarine.html http://www.paulgraham.com/submarine.html
- anon9001 7y agoI'm pretty convinced that the most important thing you can do for your career after achieving basic technical competence is to be more attractive, both physically and socially. The reality is that you're going to have an easier time making connections and getting access to opportunities if you're well-mannered, sociable, and attractive.
- opportune 7y agoThis is absolutely true and applies to more than just your career. When I was fatter vs when I was in shape I’ve noticed huge differences in how strangers treat me and how much acquaintances want to get to know me.
- mmanfrin 7y agoI've been big most of my life, for a few years I managed to drop 100lbs and unfortunately gained it all back. It's staggering how differently people treat you, whether they realize it or not.
- LargeWu 7y agoAlso, be tall, that doesn't hurt.
- bb88 7y agoInteresting story about China and leg lengthening procedures. https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10409409 https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&obj...
- hinkley 7y agoI have a suspicion that there may be a cultural difference in posture between the West and China. I’ve been practicing a Chinese martial art for half a decade, and in the last few years I’ve gotten incredulous looks a handful of times when I tell someone my height. I do not stand rail straight anymore, I hate shoes with lifts in them because they throw off my balance. I am in effect shorter than I was, which puts me at the high end of average in the eyes of people who are below average height (who do stand up, and don’t mind 1 inch heels).
- rayiner 7y ago> Only the previous week, he says, he returned from a 10-day trip to Italy’s Amalfi Coast. Before that, he boasts, he journeyed to a yoga retreat and juice cleanse in Bali, the perfect setting to unload the stress he absorbs working at a well-known tech company in Silicon Valley. After ending a five-year marriage and shedding 10 pounds of subcutaneous fat several years back — his sun-kissed body now carb- and toxin-free — Daniel has reemerged a new, seemingly younger man. This must be fake. This does not describe any software developer I’ve ever met. (Maybe because I’m on the east coast but engineering culture can’t be that different, can it?)
- Bahamut 7y agoTech worker doesn't necessarily mean software engineer.
- thrav 7y agoAt 48, it seems highly likely that he's in leadership.
- closeparen 7y agoYeah. It does sound like a number of product managers I know.
- andrei_says_ 7y agoI’ve worked both on the east coast and in Cali and California is a very different place.
- JumpCrisscross 7y ago> in Cali and California What's this?
- selimthegrim 7y agoI don’t think he means Colombia, just wants to avoid reduplication.
- fortran77 7y agoI'm 57 years old and work about 8 months/year in Silicon Valley (the rest in Tel Aviv) I dye my beard (my head is shaved) and I've had work done on my face. I'm careful to stay in shape, and not be overweight. It makes a big difference in how I'm perceived.
- TrueGeek 7y agoIs your username accurate or have you moved on from Fortran?
- fortran77 7y agoWe do CUDA/C++ mostly
- jacquesm 7y agoThe day I have to dye my beard or get plastic surgery to stay relevant in tech is the day I'll happily retire.
- aaron695 7y agoWhat you miss is you'll find it harder to prove you are relevant as you age. On things people fresh in the industry are up on, you'll will be behind on. You might still be 100% relevant to the job at hand but you will find it harder to show. This exists today, the only thing that will change is it will apply to you. If you're happy to let age beat you, then it's up to you. If you are morally unhappy tech does this you should really retire today. I get plastic surgery might be considered a large step, although I think that's cultural, but it's hard to argue dying a beard is a huge price to pay.
- jacquesm 7y agoI think all this is related to a lack of confidence. I find myself more in demand rather than less as the years pass.
- oppositelock 7y agoOther commenters may be dismissing this article as obvious, but silicon valley does have a problem, particularly in young, hip startups. These companies want to hire young, hip people, and when products being produced are very vague with no clear market, then things like image matter a lot. Juicero, comes to mind. That's fine, you don't have to work there. However, as you get older, develop wrinkles and grey hair, that appearance of being older far outweighs your experience in initial impressions that you make. I've personally been a software engineer since 1995, quite a while now. My hair is grey, my face has wrinkles, and I'm an expert in several domains. When I go interview for a new job, it's typically by people younger and less experienced than me, since I'm definitely past the median age in this industry. I get asked questions like, "do you feel you still have relevant knowledge", or "we do things differently than in your day", or "do you think you can work in a fast paced environment", etc. Tech is arrogant and judgmental and image matters a lot. I can understand how people might resort to plastic surgery to buy themselves a few non-judgmental years.
- j7ake 7y agoSounds like an opportunity for start ups to pick up undervalues talent through some “moneyball “ approach
- 3fe9a03ccd14ca5 7y agoGood engineers are smart enough not to work at “hip” places unless it comes with a hip paycheck as well.
- thrav 7y agoNot only do they only want to hire those types, but I've been in plenty of rooms where the stereotypical young engineer outright refuses to acknowledge the older people in the room, as if they're beneath him/her. They have no respect for that person's opinion, and therefore show zero respect to that person. We've all been in rooms where someone misses the point, or says something that proves they're not keeping up with the conversation -- it happens. What's unique about people in the bay is how unforgiving and judgmental they can be about those errors, and it's only heightened if the person is above a certain age.
- Animats 7y agoOK, X-er. Time to go.
- throw0x1away 7y agoNothing new here? It's just a basic human factor? Not only essential for the career, even interviews go a lot smoother if you are a pleasant to look at, deal with. It's the first impression that gets you ahead. If you are competent enough not to ruin it by talking, you are golden! Still, surgeries is kind of extreme, but lets be honest, even some basic things like a shower and deodorant can help a lot of devs.
- S_A_P 7y agoI will provide a bit of anecdata. I went from not really fat, but kinda just mushy to my high school weight when I was ~30 and started working out and did a lot of running. The way I was treated be everyone was drastically different(better). I then had a severe foot fracture that required surgery and 12-18 month recovery. Running has proven difficult even 5 years later. I am regaining some pudge, and notice that royal treatment I used to get is not there anymore. I will also say that my mind is nowhere near as sharp. 2020 is the year I get back in shape, and will see if that makes a difference again...
- jm20 7y agoAttractiveness has always affected opportunities afforded to people and other people’s perceptions of you. This is not just in tech. Hell, it influences elections! This is just human nature and has been studied extensively. It’s just trendy to bash Silicon Valley for this, because, you know, everyone on Wall Street is wearing suits for the comfort factor... However, I think there’s an upper bounds on where that matters, and I think it mostly matters when climbing the corporate ladder. If you look at the richest men in the world, most are not supermodels. The moral of the story - if you want to play the game you have to play by the game’s rules. Otherwise, play a different game.
- catalogia 7y agoOf course conformity is the reason for the suits, but I'd like to point out that if you're wearing suits 5 days a week it would be foolish to not buy a comfortable one. Good materials and a good fit can make for a very comfortable suit. More comfortable, I dare say, than the casual attire I must wear when working for west coast tech companies, lest I not conform to west coast tech company expectations. T-shirts and hoodies lose their charm when they start to feel like a requirement. Nice silk suit trousers feel nicer than blue-jeans, if they fit well they feel as nice as pajamas, but the looks you get in a west coast tech offices when you wear such clothing are withering.
- sokoloff 7y agoThe (somewhat) new stretch denim (with 1-3% elastane) makes for amazingly comfortable jeans. If you haven't tried a pair, give them a shot.
- selimthegrim 7y agoSeconding this - picked up a great pair thrifting in Atlanta
- catalogia 7y agoFully agree, that's what I wear now. It's a lot more comfortable than traditional denim, but still not quite as comfortable as the silk slacks with elastic wastes that I wear to weddings and whatnot.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- jelliclesfarm 7y agoI am very pro-body modification. And it’s affordable to the masses now and safer with non invasive medtech. One day...I hope in my lifetime..we will be able to have implants to download our thoughts, memories and feelings..dare I say..consciousness..or soul..into a chip. Looking at the physical body as a vessel and getting used to the idea that it is merely necessary hardware to our mind is important. I don’t want to create children for immortality. I want to be immortal as myself. It’s not about hacking biology. It’s about hacking immortality. This is the first step. Tiny one. But crucial one.
- 1996 7y agoCount me in! I don't want to squander my resources on anyone but myself. As I often say, give me death or give me immortality! I am hopeful some crypto billionaires will share the same mindset, and pour resources into anti aging research at the cellular level.
- jacquesm 7y agoI've got bad news for both of you: you're going to die, and you won't be resurrected. So better live your lives as if every day matters.
- 1996 7y agoNot bad news- I accept that by default, I'm going to lose the game. That's the "give me death" part. Still that don't mean I won't try the other part, removing everything that could stand between me and my objective. No kids = no college fund = more money to spend on life extending treatments if they become available I trust the human creativity will hack death someday. The only question is whether I will be alive to see that day. If I'm not, at least I will have contributed my money to the good fight.
- jacquesm 7y agoThe question you will need to answer is what you are living for. I do have children and their college fund is a rounding error on a lifetime of expenses, if I had to live life again and could choose to add another 100 years to the life I have or have children I would definitely have children again.
- lifeisstillgood 7y agoSo SV is slowly becoming like other large industries - you win less in value created than on internal politics - on impressing a VC instead of amazing a customer, on impressing the boss not actually managing a SLA. Perhaps it is how SV eventually fizzles out- it must happen sometime.
- rchaud 7y agoSV has already fizzled out. The two biggest SV successes of recent times (Google and FB) sell advertisements and surveillance services under the guise of "connecting people" or "information discovery". Its hot new bets are in food delivery and e-bike sharing. And even after sinking in billions there, they can't figure out how to turn a profit.
- jchw 7y agoReally? I’m ugly as hell and I’m doing great. I also wouldn’t say my colleagues are unusually attractive or anything. Silicon Valley feels like a place where appearance matters less than many places to me. Am I out of touch?
- sharadov 7y agoReally? I moved to the Bay area from LA and all I see are out of shape, badly dressed tech workers. Blame it on all the free food and high-stress lifestyle.
- oarabbus_ 7y agoBe tall and attractive is _literally_ the advice people are giving in this thread, and it doesn't even seem that tongue-in-cheek.
- sdinsn 7y agoIt's not tougue-in-cheek. Data shows that attractive people have better careers.
- newnewpdro 7y agoAppearing fit and healthy, especially for your age, is like activating easy mode for life in general. I've yet to see a down side, other than losing the short-lived pleasures of eating garbage food constantly. But the novelty of that wore off long ago, it pales in comparison to an active and healthy lifestyle. - Formerly overweight/borderline obese person enjoying an ideal BMI for over a decade now.
- jcomis 7y agoI'm being a bit hyperbolic I'm sure, but this seems to go hand in hand with the "culture fit" obsession with most interview processes. It's really just a gauge of how "cool" and "likable" the person seems. Speaking from witnessing it on both sides of the table.
- 40acres 7y agoReally tired of the lazy trend in journalism where you find 2-3 "eccentric" software developers and label their lifestyle as a SV trend.
- Diederich 7y agoI'm older than the person mentioned at the top of this article, and I've made no efforts to hide it. I've been in the tech industry for about 27 years now, and silicon valley for the last 11. In silicon valley, I've worked at multiple startups, as well as two 'FAANG' companies. My comp has always been very good, and I've not detected even one little hint of 'ageism' at work. In fact, my career and current work environment has never been better. > “In Silicon Valley, it’s commonly believed that if you’re over the age of 35, you’re seen as over the hill,” said Fan, who touts himself as an expert in penile enhancement and Botox injections. “People here value the young for their passion and their ability to look at things in new ways." These sentences cause my jaw to drop for several different reasons. Penile injections? Really? I will say that keeping myself mentally 'fresh' in perspective and outlook takes real work, but that's just part of necessary continuing education. In my career, I've generally targeted a 45 (on average) work week. A lot more is fine, from time to time. And I will say that I've seen quite a few of my co-workers who seemed to enjoy working way more hours than that. Some of them young, some of them older than me. What matters at work is results. What also matters to web sites is clicks and emotionally driven attention.
- jelliclesfarm 7y agoAre you saying penile enhancement and size and performance doesn’t have an affect on males? Curious female minds want to know.. I have always wanted to objectify men. I struggle to choose between their looks or bank balance or penis size. That’s why men in the past wore cod pieces. I would like it back please..
- sokoloff 7y agoIf my penis ever makes an appearance in the workplace, something has gone terrifically wrong.
- jelliclesfarm 7y agoI notice that you said ‘terrifically’ and not ‘terrribly’.
- justinzollars 7y agoI’m going to call bull shit. Im old by sv standards (38) and the only things I worry about is the quality of my code and quality of my ideas.
- nishantvyas 7y ago> "Daniel, who spoke on the condition that only his first name be published for fear of being outed as old.." Daniel, I am no genius but if you are reading this, WashingtonPost story with your details hardly makes you anonymous. - Daniel - in his late 30s, but he’s 48 years old - returned from a 10-day trip to Italy’s Amalfi Coast - journeyed to a yoga retreat and juice cleanse in Bali - ending a five-year marriage - shedding 10 pounds of subcutaneous fat several years back
- 1996 7y agoBased on my experience, the headline is right. The money I spent was dwarfed by the extra money I made afterwards. It is just my own experience, but I think it is a cool hack: look the part to get more money. To give more details, after having studied skin care a bit with the help of google scholar and reddit, I came to the conclusion that wrinkles are multifactorial and due to: - facial fat depletion : https://www.patelplasticsurgery.com/uploads/5/2/8/8/52880409/12-anatomy-aging-face-ppt-5-638_orig.jpg https://www.patelplasticsurgery.com/uploads/5/2/8/8/52880409... - change in the collagen structure, with less elasticity, likely purely due to sun damage - gravity pulling the damaged tissue down For facial fat depletion, there is fat transfer. For the effect of gravity, there is facelifts. Both work wonder. For changes in the skin structure however, I have tried non fractional CO2 resurfacing, which is said to be much more effective than fraxel. But it did not give drastic results unlike the 2 others. The article talks about RF microneedling. I wonder if someone here on HN tried, and could comment about the procedure. I'm thinking about doing that myself next time I travel. Other alternatives are "vampire microneedling", where basically PRP is put on the skin then microneedling is done in the hope that some growth factors will seep though. The reddit skincare community is wonderful - lots of crazy smart people digging article and testing on themselves, a genuine hacker spirit. I tried one of their suggestions that seemed crazy at the time: acetylsalycilic acid to reduce skin oilyness. It was so simple, so cheap, yet so efficient! Now I am going to test a skin routine to fix my skin texture: niacin serum in the morning, then sunscreen, and retinol at night, then moisturizer. It's fun to consider the body has a computer than you can upgrad with surgeries or hack with chemicals applied on the skin!
- jelliclesfarm 7y agoPRP has good reviews. A friend tried it recently and said it actually started baby hair growth near hairline..so I guess it basically increases blood flow.. If I had some spare change laying around, I would invest in cosmetic start ups. Especially those that are non invasive. Ways to determine which procedure is best suited for each person. AI to customize treatments. Etc. Phone apps too esp with the really nifty cameras that come with smart phones these days. Deceim ..a Canadian cosmetic company has affordable products and I am a fan of many their basic products altho some are pretty hard core. I won’t use anything with retinol for example. I work in the farm and under the sun. So I have to be careful. Maybe when I retire from farming. I agree. Body hacking is true hacker spirit. I encourage people to experiment and hack away.
- adamch 7y ago80% of male attractiveness comes down having a good haircut and clothes that fit you. Assuming you're in SF and have a high-paying software job. Find a hair stylist in a mid-range salon who you can actually talk to, show them some pictures of haircuts you like, and let them find something that works. If you find a professional and are OK paying them a bit extra, you'll get good results. As for "clothes that fit", I have a terrible eye for that, so when I go shopping I just ask a more stylish friend to come with me, or I just ask the shop assistants a lot of questions. Again, they're professionals. They know what works.
- sitkack 7y agoPhysical attractiveness. The majority comes from personality and being genuinely nice of which being interested in other people is the key. Even w/o being a hole, most dudes in tech don’t ask questions about other people. Self centered man babies.
- hadiz 7y agoSure, but attractive people with shitty personalities have to lose things, whereas unattractive people with good personalities need to earn. And when there are many attractive people around, there isn't much left to earn.
- hadiz 7y agoThis advice is throttled around here. There is an implication to this: if you're bald, you're fucking screwed as a man. Attractiveness would not be achievable.
- kthejoker2 7y agoSo .. The Rock? Jason Statham? Oscar de la Renta? Tom Ford's receding hairline? I mean, your point is just not taken. Plenty of men wear baldness well, and plenty of men with hair do not.
- hadiz 7y ago
- BrianB 7y agoMaybe some 15 years ago I had a job interview. It went well and I was asked to meet the co-founders at a downtown bar. Being dressed rather casually I asked if it was appropriate attire for the bar. I was told "Actually, one of the reasons I want to hire you is because you look like what I would expect a computer geek to look like." (I'm paraphrasing, it was a long time...)
- iamcasen 7y agoWhen I lived and worked in SF it was hilarious to me how rapidly the culture shifted. In only 6 years, it went from a lot of competent, interesting, varied personalities, to an army of chrome backpacks, folding bikes, and brown leather boots. Due to the vast wealth flooding there from VC coffers, people drank the Koolaid and drank it fast. I've watched people change their whole personality over night as if they constantly have their finger on the changing winds of cult personality. Needless to say I ran for the hills. Best of luck Bay Area, you'll always have a place in my heart.
- WWLink 7y agoThat sucks. I grew up in the bay area and haven't been around much in.. almost a decade. DANG WTF?! Did it really change that much? lol.
- cc23 7y agoI wonder if this depends on what language you develop in. I've been working on C++ teams for the past few years, and I don't witness any age bias. If there is an age bias, it's against younger engineers, because usually older engineers are much better at C++. The classical image of a programmer is still highly respected on every team I've worked on. Also, I am an ex division 1 wrestler, and pretty muscular, and I always felt my physique actually worked to my detriment in interviews; I take a lot of steps to not come off as a jock/meathead. I wear glasses to make myself look more like a programmer, than an athlete. Maybe there is a difference though between being in shape, and being a division 1 wrestler. Or maybe this is mostly a west coast/silicon valley thing. I've been working out of NYC mostly. Regardless though, this article really does not resonate with my experience as a software engineer.
- aaron695 7y agoI find it interesting we know your name matters but we don't hear much about changing it. I know people from overseas for instance will pick a local name, but often it's not optimised, just something picked slightly at random. It's also fully reversible.