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Avro Arrow blueprints on display after sitting in man's home for decades
- ttymck 7y agoRelated to neither Apache Avro nor Apache Arrow. Disappointed but fascinated.
- jariel 7y agoApache Avro was probably named after Avro air - as their logos are the same. Whether it was Avro Canada or the parent, Avro UK, I don't know. Founder is A.V. Roe, Manchester.
- zaphirplane 7y agoSame here I need to diversify my bubble !
- goodcanadian 7y agoMore context for those less familiar with the story: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avro_Canada_CF-105_Arrow https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avro_Canada_CF-105_Arrow
- namirez 7y agoAlmost every Canadian knows the sad story of Avro Arrow, yet most people in the rest of the world, including the US, have never heard of it. There are people in search of what is left of the program. https://www.rcinet.ca/en/2017/07/18/the-arrow-legend-mystery-intrigue-search-for-last-artefacts/ https://www.rcinet.ca/en/2017/07/18/the-arrow-legend-mystery...
- NeedMoreTea 7y agoIt's pretty well known in aviation circles in the UK. Three aircraft inevitably come up if any one, or simply idiotic cancellations are mentioned: TSR2, P1154 (Supersonic Harrier), Avro Arrow. I'm really pleased he chose to perform an offsite backup of the plans ordered destroyed...
- alex_anglin 7y agoCanadian here and certainly have heard of the Avro Arrow. The thing that isn't often discussed is how it was designed and built as an interceptor for long range bombers. With the advent of ICBMs, it's strategic purpose was called in to question.
- dmix 7y agoYeah we don’t have many great purely Canadian engineering + patriotic accomplishments which to parade around so much like CanadaArm it gets plenty of reverence locally (not to downplay the plenty of other Canadian tech and engineering exports, especially talent wise, but there’s a unique subsection of tech which crosses into government and cultural significance, which is the niche group I’m referencing). Plus the whole “what could have been” allure to the story which made for some great TV shows and written accounts.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- core-questions 7y agoThe problem here is typically Canadian: we looked stupidly at the short term usefulness of this immediate technology, saw no real market, and decided to cut it all off to "save money" instead of believing in the value of the engineering culture and technological developments for their own sake. Make and produce the Arrow, use it as a "halo" product, and trickle its technologies down into the other commercially viable models - this is something car companies do with concepts / supercars. The typical Canadian thing to do is to not believe in our own ability to create novel technology, and to let our tech companies hang out to dry when problems come along. Nortel, RIM Blackberry, Avro, and countless others. Now we have General Fusion and D-Wave and other homegrown tech companies, continuing to push the envelope; how long until we decide once again to not believe in our own abilities and just give up once more?
- dleslie 7y agoIt seems to depend largely on how dependent on Government dollars the company is; there are Canadian success stories, but many of them are not critically tied to Government budgets. It's become worse over time, of course; we can hardly build new schools or subways any longer, let alone fund multi-billion dollar halo projects.
- schwap 7y agoEh, almost every Canadian knows the made-for-TV movie version of the story. I'm glad this piece of history survived, though!
- markandrewj 7y agoStraight to TV, but it also has Dan Aykroyd in it.
- DanCarvajal 7y agoSo it's like the Bluenose of aircraft?
- Scoundreller 7y agoBut not on any coins (yet?).
- bitwize 7y agoI'd heard of it. I was an aviation nerd as a kid and saw programs about it and the XB-70 Valkyrie, a promising US bomber cancelled for similar reasons (missile technology shifting the Cold War away from manned aircraft as primary nuclear defense/offense) on the Discovery Channel. Avro Canada also developed the Avrocar, an experimental, literal flying saucer powered by a single turbofan in the middle. Cold War aviation was NUTS.
- byron_fast 7y agoEven fewer Canadians understand why the U.S. didn't trust Canada with such an able aircraft. It's destruction was, sadly, the right choice.
- kejaed 7y agoAny references as to why they didn’t ?
- byron_fast 7y agoThe obvious, that it was "too expensive" like Israel's Lavi program: https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/avro-iarrowi-there-never-was-an-iarrowi-feature https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/avro-iarro... But there was the idea that the CIA didn't trust Canada to not sell it to an enemy of the USA. If the Arrow had existed under P. Trudeau, that was a justified fear.
- warlog 7y ago..and then eventually, having no aerospace program, Canada goes on to buy F18s from America. I think the Arrow was an economic threat couched in strategic language. The arrow was kick-ass long before 14s, 15s, 16s,18s entered the science. And yes, they have different mission scenarios, but like Avro wouldn't have owned that space. #disgruntledCanadian
- hnaccy 7y agoHow is it an economic threat when the US had the f-106 which was superior and flying sooner?
- na85 7y agoThat's a myth. The US government was offered the chance to buy the Arrow and all its intellectual property but declined. It was a promising design but it was not the world-beating wonderplane that its reputation suggests.
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- markandrewj 7y agoMany of the people involved ended up being influential in other ways as well that rarely gets any credit. https://www.ctvnews.ca/sci-tech/meet-the-canadians-who-helped-america-win-the-race-to-land-a-man-on-the-moon-1.4513803 https://www.ctvnews.ca/sci-tech/meet-the-canadians-who-helpe...
- milankragujevic 7y agoHeard about it, in Serbia, from my little brother studying aviation engineering in a civil-military-partnership school. It's rather well known.
- dadarepublic 7y agoAs a child of midwest America, I was really into jets and I would also build models of them - The Avro Arrow was one of my favorite models that I had built. It looked awesome! Too bad the model didn't survive my childhood play - I believe it was broken on some epic mission in our backyard - great times!
- atj 7y agoOh - I read it quickly and thought Avro Arrow was some computer system that was idling for decades at someone's home and then suddenly blueSCREENED.
- modwest 7y agoThe American economy captured the American government in part, at least, due to the booming defense industry in the post-war era. (Not to mention becoming the world’s banker in the same era.) So maybe it’s good Canada never really got lift-off in that way. Also this story reminds me of the F-22 story
- mothsonasloth 7y agoI didn't realise Avro had a Canadian subsidiary. The Avro Vulcan is my favourite bomber.
- catalogia 7y agoIf you're ever in Ottawa and have a few hours to burn, I recommend checking out the Canada Aviation and Space Museum. They have the nose of an Avro Arrow on display, which I understand to be the most substantial surviving relic of the plane. It's a pretty good aviation museum in general and have various other interesting planes and relics as well.
- kejaed 7y agoCan confirm.
- turkeydonkey 7y agoWith the caveat that I haven't checked his sources, The History Guy did a video [1] on the Avro Arrow program that goes into a lot of the Canadian aerospace industry history leading up to the program and its subsequent cancellation. Before this I had no idea how much of a sore point it was, and still is, with Canadians (just read the comments on the video if you need some examples). [1] https://youtu.be/F4z5-l7u2Uo https://youtu.be/F4z5-l7u2Uo
- stevehawk 7y agoI think it's great that these were rescued back in their day. It's also pretty funny because technically, assuming Canadian laws are roughly the same as US laws, the engineer exfiltrated classified material from a secure location illegally. Which could partially explain why his kids were never allowed near them, for fear they may accidentally rat him out when they were young and wouldn't know better. Which makes it all the more risky.
- goodcanadian 7y agoI doubt it was that, so much as simply being "Dad's stuff." I don't really want my kids in my home office going through my papers either, and I am not hiding anything secret in here.
- mechhacker 7y agoThis period of aviation history was always fascinating to me. The development timeline was much shorter than new military aircraft today. Electronics, mechanical engineering, and other technology was rapidly developing. There were always several new airplanes coming out, which were much more specialized than today. Now, the big projects are measured in decades because the aircraft are made into big general programs that have massive costs and use one platform for multiple branches of the military, like the F35. The pace is glacial. Many new engineers move to new employers before the parts they engineered even get programmed into a CNC. An excellent feedback loop for the designers is therefore cut off. It was a different time.
- WalterBright 7y agoThe Lockheed Skunkworks was famous for getting an airplane project from go-ahead to rollout in 90 days.
- phs318u 7y agoReading about the difficulties encountered with forward-flight of the Avrocar (which presumably is inherent in the Arrow as well), I wonder if modern computing capabilities could rescue the concept. Is there still any demand for an airframe capable of easy transition from subsonic to supersonic flight with VTOL capability? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avro_Canada_VZ-9_Avrocar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avro_Canada_VZ-9_Avrocar
- def8cefe 7y agoThere is the new Chinese "Super Great White Shark" prototype. https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/16/asia/china-new-helicopter-ufo-intl-scli-hnk/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/16/asia/china-new-helicopter-ufo...
- goodcanadian 7y agoThe Arrow is in no way similar to the Avrocar.
- WalterBright 7y agoI'm partial to the Avro Triplane myself: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roe_IV_Triplane https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roe_IV_Triplane It's a beauty!
- WalterBright 7y agoSmall nit: the embedded video says the wooden mockup was accurate "down to the rivets". I highly doubt that. The Boeing 757 was the last airliner to get a wooden mockup, and it was mostly blocks of wood to check for clearances. It didn't model rivets, there's no point to that.
- Aeolun 7y agoI’m almost convinced the fact we’re doing everything with the computer now leads to shittier results. Looking at those blueprints is amazing.
- tpmx 7y agoIt reminds me quite a lot of the Draken: http://bestfighter4canada.blogspot.com/2019/02/a-tale-of-two-fighters.html http://bestfighter4canada.blogspot.com/2019/02/a-tale-of-two...
- Cuuugi 7y agoThere's a certain sad irony that it's being displayed in the museum of the man who ordered it to be cancelled.
- mymythisisthis 7y agoIt's amazing how things get preserved. Information finds a way. Also, I think that many of the engineers that worked on the Arrow got hired on at NASA.
- 908B64B197 7y agoI've always been skeptical about the Arrow. It's always claimed it was so far ahead of everything else, yet it never demonstrated it. An airplane is much more than having a few air-worthy airframes. It's being able to produce them reliably, service them and have them serve a real purpose on the battlefield. The Arrow achieved none of these goals. To me it always sounded like misplaced patriotism surrounded by conspiracy theory: "Look, our airplane was so far ahead that the program had to be shut down by the number one superpower because they felt threatened" is ridiculous when you look at it more closely. From looking at it many years later it simply sounds like it had no purpose once the landscape shifted to ICBM and that potential buyers were not completely certain the program could survive on its own. That and the lax Canadian immigration policies probably scared the buyers as the company was apparently suspected by many to have already been infiltrated by communist nations. Judging how the plans got in someone’s basements, it sound they were not crazy to think that… The really shameful chapter of Canadian aerospace is the CSeries yet It failed to get mainstream media coverage. Unlike the Arrow it reached production and had healthy sales numbers. It was Bombardier's second clean sheet design (after the Global) to reach market and had the potential to be stretched to seat counts comparable to smaller 737 and A319. President Trump levied tariffs on it and that's what prompted a takeover by Airbus. What did the Trudeau government do meanwhile to protect it -and by extension Canada's aerospace sector? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. I'm confident of one thing, that Airbus has the full support of the European Governments (especially France) and that Boeing has the full support of the Canadian and American governments. It's just sad that our own companies can't have a similar red-carpet treatment. I guess Bombardier was maybe too Quebecois for Trudeau to touch... Doesn't matter anyways, from what I heard the engineering has already moved from Canada to France for the plane's next generation!