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>Most citizens don’t mind the Chinese government, or at least think it’s better than alternatives... Sure... because economically things are relatively good, a

>Most citizens don’t mind the Chinese government, or at least think it’s better than alternatives... Sure... because economically things are relatively good, and I imagine the constant attempt to brainwash every citizen from birth has something to do with it. Many Muslim women, when asked, will say that they chose to wear a burqa, or the niqab, but I think most of us here know that they've been conditioned to think that way.

blacksmith_tb 7y ago
That's a very slippery slope - haven't you been conditioned to think individuality and personal freedoms are vital? The concerned citizens of the PRC would love to help you with that.
trianglem 7y ago
A lot of women will swear by the burqa even if they’ve been bought up in western societies and we’re less conservative in their younger days. You underestimate the contentment that comes from prescribed piety.
bobthepanda 7y ago
If you ask most (Han) Chinese, the thing they prize the most is stability. Nearly every change in political system, or power struggle, has resulted in the deaths of tens of millions of Chinese for the past two centuries. The current post-Deng CPC model, for all its faults, does have peaceful transitions of power. It remains to be seen whether or not today's wealthier China would also consider economic stability to be just as important.
- leereeves 7y ago
  > peaceful transitions of power Didn't Xi Jinping declare himself president for life?
  - Teever 7y ago
    Yes, but he declared it peacefully.
    - shi314 7y ago
      What about jailing previous president and launching campaign against his supporters in name of anti corruption.
      - yorwba 7y ago
        Hu Jintao was never jailed and the anti-corruption campaign wasn't so much targeting his supporters, but instead people Hu couldn't afford to get rid of, such as former security minister Zhou Yongkang. No one received worse punishment than a prison sentence, so even if you count the anti-corruption campaign as part of the power transition, it was still a peaceful one.
- larnmar 7y ago
  Given that most Chinese know perfectly well that theyand their families will wind up dead or in a concentration camp if they express dissent, in what way is it useful to ask them what they think?
  - dmoy 7y ago
    It depends on the context of where you're expressing dissent. Just to family or friends? Nothing's gonna happen. Evangelizing it over and over in a giant public wechat group? Mmm.... maybe not as safe.
- EpicEng 7y ago
  The assumption being that most Chinese feel absolutely free to disparage their government...?
  - yorwba 7y ago
    In private? Absolutely. Lately I've heard a lot of critical remarks about 全面小康, the promise that moderate prosperity would be achieved for everyone by 2020. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moderately_prosperous_society https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moderately_prosperous_society
    - gwright 7y ago
      > In private? Absolutely. That doesn't sound like "absolutely free". Maybe I'm missing he sarcasm.
      - yorwba 7y ago
        The context was: > If you ask most (Han) Chinese, the thing they prize the most is stability. If you ask your questions in a private setting, you'll likely get honest answers.
      - whoevercares 7y ago
        That statement is ironically correct under most context of Chinese culture. The definition of “freedom” for common Chinese is just like that and few points a finger
- devy 7y ago
  > Nearly every change in political system, or power struggle, has resulted in the deaths of tens of millions of Chinese for the past two centuries. The current post-Deng CPC model, for all its faults, does have peaceful transitions of power. Regime changes have been almost always bloody. That is true everywhere in the world. Chinese has over 2000 years of history to prove that point.
aalleavitch 7y ago
It's strange how people see everyone else's culture as brainwashing but don't stop to think about how much of their own is too.
- EpicEng 7y ago
  Are you really equating the US (where I live) to China? I don't imagine anyone in this thread is dumb enough to see the comparison as "US good, China bad", but if you think they reside at about the same level on the oppression and tyranny scale... I don't know what to say to you. It has nothing to do with "culture" and everything to do with an oppressive regime's stranglehold on its citizens.
  - aalleavitch 7y ago
    I've lived in the US all my life, and I've been subjected to propaganda my entire life as well. Everyone grows up in a society that tries to justify why it's the best and everything else is worse, point at a dozen good qualities of America and I will point at a dozen evil ones. America has and continues to do horrific things. I had to see that broken down with my own eyes to figure out that I was raised on lies just as much as any other oppressive nation.
    - EpicEng 7y ago
      Yet there are degrees of oppression, propaganda, and tyranny. It's not black and white and no country is perfect, but that doesn't mean we're on equal footing.
      - taurath 7y ago
        You assumed there was an equation there, but there wasn't from the comment. That one may be blind to one's own inadequacies doesn't mean their calling out other's is true, but IMO taking the high ground that there's a clear better should only be taken from an actually eyes open perspective, and even then that position would be shown with a heck of a lot more empathy. People tend to just take up the moral high ground and trumpet much much better they are and not be productive in improving anything.
claudiawerner 7y ago
>but I think most of us here know that they've been conditioned to think that way. Haven't you and I been conditioned by the ideology of the liberal conception of freedom, human rights, "democracy" and morality? Do not those concepts also have their critics? Yes, I am engaging in whataboutism - but sometimes that's a good thing to see just how far the slippery slope can slide. If the Chinese populace, with its faulty ideology, and the Muslim women wearing burquas, with their faulty ideology, can be said to have such a "false consciousness", why is your (or my) ideology so much less faulty or immune to criticism? What about the very ideology you espouse that declares that overriding the will of people is justified if people are "conditioned"? It is very hard, rare in fact, to escape false consciousness. It just so happens that our false consciousness is a little different to those in other places.
- EpicEng 7y ago
  I'd love to hear your criticisms of "freedom, human rights, and democracy [representative government]" in contrast to the authoritarianism and xenophobia of China.
  - Supermancho 7y ago
    What you consider freedom (and Human Rights) is likely different than I. However, in the US you get to live with the tyranny of the majority, regardless of what either of us think. The fact that it's (largely) an ignorant mass in charge vs a specific individual (and their motivated power structures) is different and yet the same. Culturally, China tolerates more. Give the USA a couple thousand years and it will look identical. No form of government has lasted the test of time, but authoritarian governments have statistically populated the longest lasting ones. In modernity, there has been a brief renaissance, but I don't believe that corruption of a modern democracy will take longer than it did for Rome ANYWHERE, including the USA. It's hard to be critical of becoming successful as robber barons of the USA, when there's so little culture and so much of the capital to waste. Don't mistake those qualities for innate value.
  - claudiawerner 7y ago
    I'm not sure what you mean by "contrast" - China is absolutely an authoritarian country, but that does not negate the criticisms[0] of the liberal conceptions of freedom and human rights in the West - we now have to points to criticize: the Western ideology, and the Chinese one. Freedom is absolutely an important thing to have in society, but that doesn't mean that the Western (or Chinese) conceptions of it are the right ones. To say that the philosophical underpinnings of liberal freedom and democracy are immune from criticism (feminist, Marxist, or otherwise) is tantamount to dogmatism. China's concepts may be worse than the Western concepts, but the Western ones certainly aren't beyond reproach. [0] https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/marx/#2 https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/marx/#2 [1] https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/critical-theory/#2.1 https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/critical-theory/#2.1 [2] https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/feminism-liberal/#Cri https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/feminism-liberal/#Cri
taurath 7y ago
Yes, it is interesting that people tend to believe the one true religion happens to be the one they were born into and raised with. Just like the USA is #1 and the USA stands for freedom. Everyone is subject to brainwashing by the society they're raised in. Anyone telling you they're a completely independent person is probably fooling themselves. That there's not that much discontent is a nice feature for those who are contented.
Mirioron 7y ago
>Many Muslim women, when asked, will say that they chose to wear a burqa, or the niqab, but I think most of us here know that they've been conditioned to think that way. We all are conditioned by the culture we live in. We generally think our culture is better than theirs regardless what our culture or their culture is. People can accept a lot of limitations to their freedom as long as life is decent and people don't feel that they need more. Think of all of the libertarian arguments about how a large government limits the freedom of people, but most people in the west are okay with most of those limitations. Western countries might not be running active government propaganda, but things like Hollywood absolutely push a certain type of culture into society.
- EpicEng 7y ago
  I'm sure Hare would be proud, but back in reality we have to find real answers to moral questions. There are actully objective truths in life. Whether or not people can accept oppression due to cultural influences is irrelelevant; it's not a good thing. Freedom to speak and, therefore, to think, is preferable over the alternative. Not all arguments are created equal, and comparing the influence of Hollywood (while certainly real!) to that of an authoritarian government is a joke.
- blackrock 7y ago
  You forgot to mention. The CIA and US Government provides active funding to Hollywood. The propaganda here is known as manufactured consent. It's actually pretty ingenious.
thaumasiotes 7y ago
> Many Muslim women, when asked, will say that they chose to wear a burqa, or the niqab, but I think most of us here know that they've been conditioned to think that way. "Know"? The practice is spreading among Jewish women in Israel, who appreciate that it's a strong visual signal of their piety. Should we conclude that they've been conditioned to think that way too?

blacksmith_tb 7y ago

That's a very slippery slope - haven't you been conditioned to think individuality and personal freedoms are vital? The concerned citizens of the PRC would love to help you with that.

trianglem 7y ago

A lot of women will swear by the burqa even if they’ve been bought up in western societies and we’re less conservative in their younger days. You underestimate the contentment that comes from prescribed piety.

bobthepanda 7y ago

If you ask most (Han) Chinese, the thing they prize the most is stability. Nearly every change in political system, or power struggle, has resulted in the deaths of tens of millions of Chinese for the past two centuries. The current post-Deng CPC model, for all its faults, does have peaceful transitions of power. It remains to be seen whether or not today's wealthier China would also consider economic stability to be just as important.

leereeves 7y ago
> peaceful transitions of power Didn't Xi Jinping declare himself president for life?
- Teever 7y ago
  Yes, but he declared it peacefully.
  - shi314 7y ago
    What about jailing previous president and launching campaign against his supporters in name of anti corruption.
    - yorwba 7y ago
      Hu Jintao was never jailed and the anti-corruption campaign wasn't so much targeting his supporters, but instead people Hu couldn't afford to get rid of, such as former security minister Zhou Yongkang. No one received worse punishment than a prison sentence, so even if you count the anti-corruption campaign as part of the power transition, it was still a peaceful one.
larnmar 7y ago
Given that most Chinese know perfectly well that theyand their families will wind up dead or in a concentration camp if they express dissent, in what way is it useful to ask them what they think?
- dmoy 7y ago
  It depends on the context of where you're expressing dissent. Just to family or friends? Nothing's gonna happen. Evangelizing it over and over in a giant public wechat group? Mmm.... maybe not as safe.
EpicEng 7y ago
The assumption being that most Chinese feel absolutely free to disparage their government...?
- yorwba 7y ago
  In private? Absolutely. Lately I've heard a lot of critical remarks about 全面小康, the promise that moderate prosperity would be achieved for everyone by 2020. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moderately_prosperous_society https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moderately_prosperous_society
  - gwright 7y ago
    > In private? Absolutely. That doesn't sound like "absolutely free". Maybe I'm missing he sarcasm.
    - yorwba 7y ago
      The context was: > If you ask most (Han) Chinese, the thing they prize the most is stability. If you ask your questions in a private setting, you'll likely get honest answers.
    - whoevercares 7y ago
      That statement is ironically correct under most context of Chinese culture. The definition of “freedom” for common Chinese is just like that and few points a finger
devy 7y ago
> Nearly every change in political system, or power struggle, has resulted in the deaths of tens of millions of Chinese for the past two centuries. The current post-Deng CPC model, for all its faults, does have peaceful transitions of power. Regime changes have been almost always bloody. That is true everywhere in the world. Chinese has over 2000 years of history to prove that point.

aalleavitch 7y ago

It's strange how people see everyone else's culture as brainwashing but don't stop to think about how much of their own is too.

EpicEng 7y ago
Are you really equating the US (where I live) to China? I don't imagine anyone in this thread is dumb enough to see the comparison as "US good, China bad", but if you think they reside at about the same level on the oppression and tyranny scale... I don't know what to say to you. It has nothing to do with "culture" and everything to do with an oppressive regime's stranglehold on its citizens.
- aalleavitch 7y ago
  I've lived in the US all my life, and I've been subjected to propaganda my entire life as well. Everyone grows up in a society that tries to justify why it's the best and everything else is worse, point at a dozen good qualities of America and I will point at a dozen evil ones. America has and continues to do horrific things. I had to see that broken down with my own eyes to figure out that I was raised on lies just as much as any other oppressive nation.
  - EpicEng 7y ago
    Yet there are degrees of oppression, propaganda, and tyranny. It's not black and white and no country is perfect, but that doesn't mean we're on equal footing.
    - taurath 7y ago
      You assumed there was an equation there, but there wasn't from the comment. That one may be blind to one's own inadequacies doesn't mean their calling out other's is true, but IMO taking the high ground that there's a clear better should only be taken from an actually eyes open perspective, and even then that position would be shown with a heck of a lot more empathy. People tend to just take up the moral high ground and trumpet much much better they are and not be productive in improving anything.

claudiawerner 7y ago

>but I think most of us here know that they've been conditioned to think that way. Haven't you and I been conditioned by the ideology of the liberal conception of freedom, human rights, "democracy" and morality? Do not those concepts also have their critics? Yes, I am engaging in whataboutism - but sometimes that's a good thing to see just how far the slippery slope can slide. If the Chinese populace, with its faulty ideology, and the Muslim women wearing burquas, with their faulty ideology, can be said to have such a "false consciousness", why is your (or my) ideology so much less faulty or immune to criticism? What about the very ideology you espouse that declares that overriding the will of people is justified if people are "conditioned"? It is very hard, rare in fact, to escape false consciousness. It just so happens that our false consciousness is a little different to those in other places.

EpicEng 7y ago
I'd love to hear your criticisms of "freedom, human rights, and democracy [representative government]" in contrast to the authoritarianism and xenophobia of China.
- Supermancho 7y ago
  What you consider freedom (and Human Rights) is likely different than I. However, in the US you get to live with the tyranny of the majority, regardless of what either of us think. The fact that it's (largely) an ignorant mass in charge vs a specific individual (and their motivated power structures) is different and yet the same. Culturally, China tolerates more. Give the USA a couple thousand years and it will look identical. No form of government has lasted the test of time, but authoritarian governments have statistically populated the longest lasting ones. In modernity, there has been a brief renaissance, but I don't believe that corruption of a modern democracy will take longer than it did for Rome ANYWHERE, including the USA. It's hard to be critical of becoming successful as robber barons of the USA, when there's so little culture and so much of the capital to waste. Don't mistake those qualities for innate value.
- claudiawerner 7y ago
  I'm not sure what you mean by "contrast" - China is absolutely an authoritarian country, but that does not negate the criticisms[0] of the liberal conceptions of freedom and human rights in the West - we now have to points to criticize: the Western ideology, and the Chinese one. Freedom is absolutely an important thing to have in society, but that doesn't mean that the Western (or Chinese) conceptions of it are the right ones. To say that the philosophical underpinnings of liberal freedom and democracy are immune from criticism (feminist, Marxist, or otherwise) is tantamount to dogmatism. China's concepts may be worse than the Western concepts, but the Western ones certainly aren't beyond reproach. [0] https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/marx/#2 https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/marx/#2 [1] https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/critical-theory/#2.1 https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/critical-theory/#2.1 [2] https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/feminism-liberal/#Cri https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/feminism-liberal/#Cri

taurath 7y ago

Yes, it is interesting that people tend to believe the one true religion happens to be the one they were born into and raised with. Just like the USA is #1 and the USA stands for freedom. Everyone is subject to brainwashing by the society they're raised in. Anyone telling you they're a completely independent person is probably fooling themselves. That there's not that much discontent is a nice feature for those who are contented.

Mirioron 7y ago

>Many Muslim women, when asked, will say that they chose to wear a burqa, or the niqab, but I think most of us here know that they've been conditioned to think that way. We all are conditioned by the culture we live in. We generally think our culture is better than theirs regardless what our culture or their culture is. People can accept a lot of limitations to their freedom as long as life is decent and people don't feel that they need more. Think of all of the libertarian arguments about how a large government limits the freedom of people, but most people in the west are okay with most of those limitations. Western countries might not be running active government propaganda, but things like Hollywood absolutely push a certain type of culture into society.

EpicEng 7y ago
I'm sure Hare would be proud, but back in reality we have to find real answers to moral questions. There are actully objective truths in life. Whether or not people can accept oppression due to cultural influences is irrelelevant; it's not a good thing. Freedom to speak and, therefore, to think, is preferable over the alternative. Not all arguments are created equal, and comparing the influence of Hollywood (while certainly real!) to that of an authoritarian government is a joke.
blackrock 7y ago
You forgot to mention. The CIA and US Government provides active funding to Hollywood. The propaganda here is known as manufactured consent. It's actually pretty ingenious.

thaumasiotes 7y ago

> Many Muslim women, when asked, will say that they chose to wear a burqa, or the niqab, but I think most of us here know that they've been conditioned to think that way. "Know"? The practice is spreading among Jewish women in Israel, who appreciate that it's a strong visual signal of their piety. Should we conclude that they've been conditioned to think that way too?