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What I find completely demotivating is working for a FAANG in Europe, and seeing the massive disparity between US colleagues. You can argue cost of living is di
by gnrlst 7y ago
What I find completely demotivating is working for a FAANG in Europe, and seeing the massive disparity between US colleagues. You can argue cost of living is different, healthcare is public blablabla, but recruiters have told me straight out: we dont adjust for cost of living, we adjust for market rate. Therefore they dont give a rats ass about how much it costs to live in a specific country, they just pay based on the average going rate. Unfortunately, some EU countries (e.g. IT) have very low purchasing power due to stagnant wages and inflated prices. So we're getting the shit end of the stick.
- bradhe 7y ago> we dont adjust for cost of living, we adjust for market rate. This is true everywhere.
- jypepin 7y agoFor what it's worth I moved from SF to AMS a few years ago for my employer (FAANG-ish) and they cut my salary by 30%. I was pissed and fought hard, but they didn't bulge. My quality of life (including buying power) was still more in AMS.
- TulliusCicero 7y agoDepends on what you're buying. I made a similar move from SV to Munich, some things got cheaper, like rent, transportation, childcare, and groceries. "Stuff" (anything that comes out of a factory) was generally more expensive, as was media/digital subscriptions. Definitely feel poorer in Munich, though part of that was just an unfortunate school situation.
- jypepin 7y agomedia/digital subscriptions more expensive than SV? Like which ones and at which scale? My experience with europe (France and Netherlands) is that most of those things are also incredibly cheaper, 20e/month for unlimited data cellphone plan, 40euro for fast internet, etc. What type of media subscription you have for those to feel like they lower your buying power? I feel like once you've paid cheaper "rent, transportation, childcare, and groceries" you mention, how are your media/digital subscriptions making a difference?
- eeZah7Ux 7y agoYou are lucky it was 30%. For most people hired locally it would be much lower in most companies.
- SirHound 7y agoAlso we don't get free heathcare, we pay for it through taxation. I believe this is morally right, but that's beside the point: These well-paid American employees are also probably getting a great healthcare package as part of their contract, so they don't even have to pay for it.
- TulliusCicero 7y agoOh, healthcare still costs money in the US, when I was at Google in the bay area I still had monthly premiums and out of pocket costs. It wasn't super expensive though...as long as nothing went wrong.
- anthonypasq 7y agoAll employer provided healthcare is subsidized not free.
- xtracto 7y agoHaha, your comment reminded me when I went to Las Vegas and the hotel told us to go into bus X that they offered as part of the service for their guests. When we arrived to the bus, we asked the driver: "Is this the bus service that goes to XYZ place and it si free?" . The driver very seriously told us: "It is not free", to which we replied "but they told us it was free!", finally he added: "it is not free, it is complimentary" I found amusing how the US culture finds the concept of "free" (gratis, kostenlos) somewhat dirty.
- mav3rick 7y agoIt is free are G. There is a 1000 deductible and people get 1000 in their HSA at the start of the year. Nothing gets cut monthly from your pay check..
- j4kp07 7y ago> Also we don't get free heathcare, we pay for it through taxation It's funny how the "free" narrative is flipped when it's not convenient anymore. > so they don't even have to pay for it Monthly premium and co-pays still exist and it's disingenuous to ignore the fact that benefits should be included in the context of negotiating a salary. > These well-paid American employees are also probably getting a great healthcare package as part of their contract Thank you. Now please spread this message to your friends and colleagues.
- mabbo 7y agoThere are over 1000 engineers in Amazon's Toronto office. Every one of us knows we could make a huge increase in total comp by moving to the USA. Amazon would even help us make the move, relocation support, everything. I know ~3 people who've done so after 7 years here. We just like it better here, money be damned.
- esoterica 7y agoPresumably the ones who wanted to move already have so you’ve never met them.
- ab_testing 7y agoExactly, most of the people that I know and moved to Amazon Canada did so,because they got stuck in a visa limbo in the US
- mabbo 7y agoBut after a year or two in the Canadian offices, they usually qualify for an L-1 if they wanted to go back. And yet, here we all are.
- infinite8s 7y agoWhat's the pay differential between Toronto and SF/NYC?
- pjc50 7y agoI think what this whole exercise proves is that remote working is an unsolved problem, that "can physically see employee at their desk" is worth well over 50% of their salary. Therefore it's not a global market. Proper global markets produce things that cost similar amounts almost everywhere, like crude oil or iPhones.
- blaser-waffle 7y agoThat's more of a "how do we manage people in a knowledge industry" problem, not a function of employee-desk visibility. We already have webcams and software on corporate laptops that logs every single keystroke. I'd argue it's already been solved, just not implemented.
- eeZah7Ux 7y ago50%?! More like 90%. And your point does not explain at al why salaries are so much lower for on-site workers everywhere else in the world. The answer, I'm afraid, is privilege.
- lonelappde 7y agoYou'll do better if you focus on living your best life instead of worrying about someone else having more money. If you don't move to USA, how does envy make your life better?
- Nitramp 7y agoI don't think that universally true. I work for G in Munich, and salaries post cost of living are competitive with the Bay Area (maybe 10%-20% off, but OTOH consider quality of life). From what I can tell, Zurich beats the Bay Area.
- rolltiide 7y ago> From what I can tell, Zurich beats the Bay Area. Yes, with the similar salaries and a 1:1 exchange rate between CHF and USD and the only tax is the Cantonal tax of 13% vs 50% for Bay Area, it makes Zurich way far ahead. The offices in Zug down the street get only 7% tax. And healthcare is free, but its a negligible concern at these compensation ranges. It just shows how the American arguments fall apart, since most of them are based on "how much Europeans must have to be taxed"
- jsnell 7y agoBasically everything you wrote is incorrect. - It's not just the cantonal tax; you've ignored the federal and municipal taxes. - The location of the office isn't what matters, but where you live. - Healthcare definitely isn't free. Everyone is legally obligated to buy private health insurance.
- rolltiide 7y agoThanks for the summary, makes me wonder if I would live in Zug and work in Zurich.
- zrhswe 7y agoIf you like having a 40+ min commute instead of a few minutes of walking/biking for a few thousands of tax savings a year. Some people don't. Generally the richer you are the more you get to value your own time.
- zrhswe 7y ago>From what I can tell, Zurich beats the Bay Area. Not really. Out of all FAANGs there's just Google in Zurich with a significant presence. They pay well above almost all other swiss and european companies, but are not really the top paying employer in the Bay anymore. Not being able to job hop among FAANGs is a big risk to your compensation here in the long term and will make you eventually lose out to Bay Area, even despite lower taxes.
- crispyporkbites 7y agoWhat are FAANG in Europe salaries like? Is there also a perception of core product/business work taking place in SV and therefore European teams aren't as important?
- nvarsj 7y agoYou can dig through the salaries on levels.fyi. From my brief perusal, it looks like 50% less for London. I'd guess other places will be even lower.
- shawabawa3 7y agoI can pitch in to say in London I make ~$150k + $50k/y options (not sure how to value these, strike price is only slightly discounted) for L4 (should be ~$300k according to levels) From what i've heard London has by far the highest tech salaries in Europe
- gberger 7y agoIs that at Google?
- fyfy18 7y agoThat is around £114k, which is a high salary for London, but nothing in comparison to what you can make contracting (and at the same 'salary', as a contractor you'll pay less tax in the UK). The base rates for web technologies are around £500/day, and if you specialise and have a track record for delivering you can easily push that up.
- exclipy 7y agoFor Google, Zurich has slightly higher salaries but half the RSUs compared to SV. But taxes and housing are lower in Zurich, so. Comp isn't based on what's important for the business; it's based purely on market reference pricing.
- oarabbus_ 7y ago>but recruiters have told me straight out: we dont adjust for cost of living, we adjust for market rate Isn't that how it should be?