10 ms·

I like how a guy earning a fairly unremarkable-when-we-adjust-for-cost-of-living salary with a bunch of fairly unimpressive table-stakes credentials: "clean cut

I like how a guy earning a fairly unremarkable-when-we-adjust-for-cost-of-living salary with a bunch of fairly unimpressive table-stakes credentials: "clean cut, well-spoken, hard working, respectful" (whaddaya want? a cookie?) is meant to be a Amazing Pussy Magnet. One of the major factors - aside from the gender ratio - behind tech guys not finding partners is this weird expectation that if they shave, clip their fingernails, and don't act like an outright dirtbag that women will flock to them, regardless of whether they have any personal appeal or not. A lot of dudes in tech are just bores with zero interests and a outsized sense of entitlement to the opposite sex (talking about the het guys, don't know how it works on the other side of the fence). Just to top it off, they expect to be magnets to interesting women, too - these guys are the first to sneer at gold-digging women who are, frankly, their appropriate mirror image. That is, if the only thing you can say about yourself that isn't table-stages normal person stuff is that you're "a SWE making $120K+ a year" who exactly do you think you're going to attract? Bonus points: deciding that the one thing that's missing from the above picture is being swole, and filling in any extra time not spend being a "respectful male SWE" with incessant iron pumping.

look_lookatme 7y ago
You doing ok glangdale?
- glangdale 7y ago
  Username checks out. Did you have a point, or are you just here to offer content-free snark?
X6S1x6Okd1st 7y ago
Totally agree. Being interesting as a human and working on yourself is so much better than trying to get credit for being "respectful". That's like saying: "look I shower every day!" Be interesting.
- philosopher1234 7y ago
  What do you personally do to be interesting?
  - clomond 7y ago
    Become a multi-deminsional, multi-faceted person. Starting with exploring genuine interests which have maybe not been 'listened to'. Being a bit adventurous (determine if things you've been curious about you actually care about), and trying new things (discover and identify new areas that exist) which could end up being interesting to you. From what I've seen, the key to being interesting is weirdly being more of "your true self". (not sure if any of that is actually helpful)
    - NeverFade 7y ago
      > Become a multi-deminsional, multi-faceted person. According to census statistics, there are 1.63 single men for every 1 woman in Marin County. 1.34 single men per single woman in San Mateo County. 1.55 single men per single woman in Santa Clara County. So I really like your advice; if every man in the Bay became a "multi-deminsional, multi-faceted person", they would transcend the boundaries of plain arithmetic so there would be enough single women to date every one of them!
      - leni536 7y ago
        The advice is for an individual, not all men collectively. But yeah the advice is not "be interesting", it's "be more interesting than a typical man in your area". The issue you describe is very real though.
        NeverFade 7y ago
        My point is that it will be really hard for straight men to date when there's 130-160 of them for every 100 women. Yes, each one of them could become ultra-competitive about it, and crawl on top of the others to be among the fortunate 60% who get dates, instead of the 40% who don't. But do you really want to live in an area where 40% of men can't get a date because there's simply no women available to them? We also haven't discussed the downsides to these fortunate 60% men. You worked on yourself, became interesting, and got a girlfriend. However, she knows with 50% more men than women in her area, she can easily replace you. That may make the relationship less pleasant than you think. "Just become more interesting to overcome all adverse effects from 50% gender diversity" is unfortunately quite naive.
zaksoup 7y ago
I think it’s also interesting to point out that the kind of person who hears “improve your social life” and thinks “that’s impossible because there aren’t enough women willing to date me” is probably dealing with some self fulfilling prophecy. When I think of my social life I think of my community and the people in it. Board game nights at my friends’ apartments, playing destiny 2 together, going canvassing with folks politically aligned with me. I’ve met so many interesting platonic and romantic relationships by intentionally building community first and my romantic life second. If your entire socialization scheme is build around winning at dating and you come from it with a scarcity mindset... you’re the problem.
titanomachy 7y ago
Yeah folks could try on a little humility... when someone is uninterested in you, it's not a personal affront. You expressed interest and they didn't reciprocate. Big deal. When _everyone_ is uninterested in you, maybe you're not interesting. You could think about how to change that, rather than complaining that the world is judging you on the wrong metric. Do Bay Area men really think interesting women would be irresistably drawn to their unremarkable income and mastery of basic hygiene if they moved to New York?
olalonde 7y ago
> I like how a guy earning a fairly unremarkable-when-we-adjust-for-cost-of-living salary with a bunch of fairly unimpressive table-stakes credentials: "clean cut, well-spoken, hard working, respectful" (whaddaya want? a cookie?) is meant to be a Amazing Pussy Magnet. It's obviously not the case in the Bay Area, but it is in a lot of places. To be honest, I was a bit shocked with the kind of mismatched couples I saw in San Francisco. Lots of appealing men with less appealing women. Ratios do matter. Also, a SWE salary is not unremarkable in most of the country (look up salary statistics).
- mikeymz 7y ago
  "so-so women" Wtf dude.
  - olalonde 7y ago
    I'm not a native speaker, didn't mean to be offensive. I just meant that there's a lot of couples where the male half seems to score quite a bit higher on attractiveness, career, appeal, etc. I should note that this observation was also shared by my wife. Changed the wording.
    - watwut 7y ago
      Maybe in addition to be good looking and earning money, that dude also was not looking for trophy wife and had different preferences. Dude sounds like catch.
      - olalonde 7y ago
        I'm not talking about a specific man and physical attractiveness is just one of many aspects. In aggregate, it seems reasonable to believe that the gender imbalance causes men to lower their standards. > Dude sounds like catch. That's sort of the point.
        watwut 7y ago
apatters 7y ago
I suspect most of them were told (by their mothers, continuously for the first 20 years of their lives) that this was in fact the way to land a good woman. Be a nice clean cut guy and earn $120K a year. If you know so much then what's your prescription for them?
- _jgdh 7y ago
  I’m going to guess they won’t have an answer to your question of how single men in the Bay Area working on themselves and “becoming interesting” will suddenly make tens of thousands of single women materialise in the Bay Area. It was merely a rant about how they felt people shouldn’t feel entitled to anything and that expecting to be able to date if you’ve got your life in order is too much entitlement.
  - glangdale 7y ago
    This is a strange response, mostly a wilful misreading of what I wrote. But yes, having your "life in order" isn't actually all that shit-hot, and yes, "expecting to be able to date" if you're not very interesting is actually "too much entitlement". Because last time I checked, "expecting to be able to date" involves the decisions of other people and you're not really generally entitled for other people to do much more than treat you with decency and respect. Not, necessarily, want to jump your bones. Sorry.
    - philosopher1234 7y ago
      Why do you need to be “hot shit” in order to date? Why isn’t being able to provide for your SO emotionally/physically/financially sufficient? By your standards I’m not hot shit but my girlfriend loves me so I’m wondering why I should even care what you think?
      - glangdale 7y ago
        It's weird you keep cropping up on this thread interpreting me saying "women are not going to flock to you just because you meet some basic criteria so it is foolish to start behaving that you are entitled to this" as "obviously, philosopher1234 cannot possibly have a girlfriend, q.e.d".
duelingjello 7y ago
Lifestyle design and the wider world is stereotypically antithetical to most engineers. If you’re not one of those, and even if you are, you should often deflect the “so what do you do? (how much do you make?)” question with a humorous contradictory “title.” I know a guy who makes $350k and has a security clearance but wears white socks, is overweight, eats with his mouth open and is super awkward. That’s not a “catch,” in women’s eyes, unless he owns it without the usual creepy awkwardness, shame and/or insecurities. Sense of humor, directness, interests outside tech, goals in life, socioemotional self-awareness and demonstrated relentlessly-resourceful go-getterness is what makes women run. And don’t be so damn predictable. PS: skip Tinder unless you’re a 19-year-old sports player or an 20-/30-something model.
brycesbeard 7y ago
I’ve been speaking with my girlfriends friends, about the paucity of eligible men in the SFBA. Most of them ask me to introduce them to a nice person. Looks aren’t as important, but having a decent job is. Maybe it’s the age, but I found simply being kind and knowing your target market (women who like kind guys, who are everywhere, and are often smoking hot) works. Late 30s is a good time to date. I had the same issues as OP describes in my 20s, not in the Bay Area. It was all about how I subconsciously chose to approach things. I worked on myself, was genuine, and have had great success finding a mate up here. (Not all that attentive, about 50 lbs overweight, fwiw)
- vharish 7y ago
  Haha.. this is now taking an interesting turn.
- arbol 7y ago
  > Not all that attentive, about 50 lbs overweight, fwiw That's one hell of a dating site opener.
xenihn 7y ago
Dating in the Bay Area as a male engineer with average (or worse) looks is extremely easy if you're a white (or white-passing) FAANG employee (or you work at any other company that is obviously paying you $300k+ in the bay) who is willing to date PRC citizens. Gold-digging isn't relevant imo given that they also have tech incomes, and generally have rich families overseas to boot. I really don't understand why most guys here pass on them. The only reason I ever get from my friends when I ask is "I just don't like fobs". Whatever, more for me.
- lowdose 7y ago
  For anyone else wondering what "fobs" means. Oxford dictionary plural for: A chain attached to a watch for carrying in a waistcoat or waistband pocket.
  - hsikka 7y ago
    I believe it is an acronym for "Fresh Off the Boat", i.e. an immigrant. It's a slang term and I personally don't use it too much but have heard it used fairly often.
    - xenihn 7y ago
      I'd argue that the modern definition has nothing to do with immigrant status, and is entirely about whether or not you can pass as a native English speaker. It just so happens that most people who have accents are immigrants, and you can reasonably assume that anyone who didn't grow up speaking English as a native language is going to have an accent. You are not a fob if you moved here from China at 9 years old, didn't read or speak your first word of English until then, and have no discernible accent as an adult. No one would call a Hong Konger with a HK English accent a fob either.
      - thatfrenchguy 7y ago
        > you can pass as a native English speaker Also clothing :-)
buboard 7y ago
Does this mean that womens aspirations are wildly different than men in SV? How do they manage to be significantly more interesting than men? What do they do to become ‘crotch magnets’?
partyboat1586 7y ago
Clipping nails is probably all you need from that list. You can still be unshaven (provided your stubble looks like man stubble, not pubes) be a bit of a dirtbag, earn slightly less money and get more women. No one gives a shit if you are well spoken, you can have a silver tongue without using the Queen's English, in fact it helps if you enjoy abusing grammar. As for attracting interesting women you actually wanna marry. Yeah you should probably have interests outside of tech. If all you are interested in is tech that makes you really boring because it's one of those subjects with no spillover. If you're an artist people might not appreciate the technicalities of mixing oil paints but they will enjoy looking at your paintings. Tech is impenetrable unless you are also in it. No one gives a fuck about that graph problem you solved that just made your distributed system more scalable because they don't understand half of those words. Imagine two people speaking a language you don't speak to each other and all they want to do is talk in that language. So boring.
maximente 7y ago
wow, i'm just sitting here imagining there are 150 applicants to 100 jobs and reading a response like this. "you need to work harder - a lot of people are just not that talented to employers - why aren't you outcompeting the others?" this seems straight up victim blaming. if there are 150 applicants and 100 jobs, there are 50 people who miss out. waging war to "one up" those other 149 (or 99 i guess) is certainly an avenue of possible pursuit but is likely to lead to misery IME. alternatively, removing yourself from a systematically horrible situation is probably pareto optimal. if there are 100 jobs and 80 applicants, you're suddenly in a way better situation. if you make six figures and can work remotely, the world is literally your oyster. there are opportunities to arbitrage your income and freedom and create the life you want - but it starts outside SFBA.
- glangdale 7y ago
  Hacker News is full of advice for people attempting to get successful outcomes in situations where there are 20,000 applicants to 100 jobs, so I'm amazed that a discussion of how you can improve your outcomes under a 150:100 ratio is now "victim blaming". Also, newsflash: not getting attention from the gender(s) of your choice doesn't make you a "victim". We're back to the entitlement thing, I guess. But yes, moving out of the Bay Area will help. However, I'd hazard a guess that unless someone moves to somewhere where a six-figure salary makes them a minor princeling, your problems may follow them. Because a boring dude in SF or the Bay is still a boring guy in Des Moines or Scranton.
nugari 7y ago
thank you for this comment. I've been in the Bay Area for about a year, and it pretty much encompasses all my dating experience here

look_lookatme 7y ago

You doing ok glangdale?

glangdale 7y ago
Username checks out. Did you have a point, or are you just here to offer content-free snark?

X6S1x6Okd1st 7y ago

Totally agree. Being interesting as a human and working on yourself is so much better than trying to get credit for being "respectful". That's like saying: "look I shower every day!" Be interesting.

philosopher1234 7y ago
What do you personally do to be interesting?
- clomond 7y ago
  Become a multi-deminsional, multi-faceted person. Starting with exploring genuine interests which have maybe not been 'listened to'. Being a bit adventurous (determine if things you've been curious about you actually care about), and trying new things (discover and identify new areas that exist) which could end up being interesting to you. From what I've seen, the key to being interesting is weirdly being more of "your true self". (not sure if any of that is actually helpful)
  - NeverFade 7y ago
    > Become a multi-deminsional, multi-faceted person. According to census statistics, there are 1.63 single men for every 1 woman in Marin County. 1.34 single men per single woman in San Mateo County. 1.55 single men per single woman in Santa Clara County. So I really like your advice; if every man in the Bay became a "multi-deminsional, multi-faceted person", they would transcend the boundaries of plain arithmetic so there would be enough single women to date every one of them!
    - leni536 7y ago
      The advice is for an individual, not all men collectively. But yeah the advice is not "be interesting", it's "be more interesting than a typical man in your area". The issue you describe is very real though.
      - NeverFade 7y ago
        My point is that it will be really hard for straight men to date when there's 130-160 of them for every 100 women. Yes, each one of them could become ultra-competitive about it, and crawl on top of the others to be among the fortunate 60% who get dates, instead of the 40% who don't. But do you really want to live in an area where 40% of men can't get a date because there's simply no women available to them? We also haven't discussed the downsides to these fortunate 60% men. You worked on yourself, became interesting, and got a girlfriend. However, she knows with 50% more men than women in her area, she can easily replace you. That may make the relationship less pleasant than you think. "Just become more interesting to overcome all adverse effects from 50% gender diversity" is unfortunately quite naive.

zaksoup 7y ago

I think it’s also interesting to point out that the kind of person who hears “improve your social life” and thinks “that’s impossible because there aren’t enough women willing to date me” is probably dealing with some self fulfilling prophecy. When I think of my social life I think of my community and the people in it. Board game nights at my friends’ apartments, playing destiny 2 together, going canvassing with folks politically aligned with me. I’ve met so many interesting platonic and romantic relationships by intentionally building community first and my romantic life second. If your entire socialization scheme is build around winning at dating and you come from it with a scarcity mindset... you’re the problem.

titanomachy 7y ago

Yeah folks could try on a little humility... when someone is uninterested in you, it's not a personal affront. You expressed interest and they didn't reciprocate. Big deal. When _everyone_ is uninterested in you, maybe you're not interesting. You could think about how to change that, rather than complaining that the world is judging you on the wrong metric. Do Bay Area men really think interesting women would be irresistably drawn to their unremarkable income and mastery of basic hygiene if they moved to New York?

olalonde 7y ago

> I like how a guy earning a fairly unremarkable-when-we-adjust-for-cost-of-living salary with a bunch of fairly unimpressive table-stakes credentials: "clean cut, well-spoken, hard working, respectful" (whaddaya want? a cookie?) is meant to be a Amazing Pussy Magnet. It's obviously not the case in the Bay Area, but it is in a lot of places. To be honest, I was a bit shocked with the kind of mismatched couples I saw in San Francisco. Lots of appealing men with less appealing women. Ratios do matter. Also, a SWE salary is not unremarkable in most of the country (look up salary statistics).

mikeymz 7y ago
"so-so women" Wtf dude.
- olalonde 7y ago
  I'm not a native speaker, didn't mean to be offensive. I just meant that there's a lot of couples where the male half seems to score quite a bit higher on attractiveness, career, appeal, etc. I should note that this observation was also shared by my wife. Changed the wording.
  - watwut 7y ago
    Maybe in addition to be good looking and earning money, that dude also was not looking for trophy wife and had different preferences. Dude sounds like catch.
    - olalonde 7y ago
      I'm not talking about a specific man and physical attractiveness is just one of many aspects. In aggregate, it seems reasonable to believe that the gender imbalance causes men to lower their standards. > Dude sounds like catch. That's sort of the point.
      - watwut 7y ago

apatters 7y ago

I suspect most of them were told (by their mothers, continuously for the first 20 years of their lives) that this was in fact the way to land a good woman. Be a nice clean cut guy and earn $120K a year. If you know so much then what's your prescription for them?

_jgdh 7y ago
I’m going to guess they won’t have an answer to your question of how single men in the Bay Area working on themselves and “becoming interesting” will suddenly make tens of thousands of single women materialise in the Bay Area. It was merely a rant about how they felt people shouldn’t feel entitled to anything and that expecting to be able to date if you’ve got your life in order is too much entitlement.
- glangdale 7y ago
  This is a strange response, mostly a wilful misreading of what I wrote. But yes, having your "life in order" isn't actually all that shit-hot, and yes, "expecting to be able to date" if you're not very interesting is actually "too much entitlement". Because last time I checked, "expecting to be able to date" involves the decisions of other people and you're not really generally entitled for other people to do much more than treat you with decency and respect. Not, necessarily, want to jump your bones. Sorry.
  - philosopher1234 7y ago
    Why do you need to be “hot shit” in order to date? Why isn’t being able to provide for your SO emotionally/physically/financially sufficient? By your standards I’m not hot shit but my girlfriend loves me so I’m wondering why I should even care what you think?
    - glangdale 7y ago
      It's weird you keep cropping up on this thread interpreting me saying "women are not going to flock to you just because you meet some basic criteria so it is foolish to start behaving that you are entitled to this" as "obviously, philosopher1234 cannot possibly have a girlfriend, q.e.d".

duelingjello 7y ago

Lifestyle design and the wider world is stereotypically antithetical to most engineers. If you’re not one of those, and even if you are, you should often deflect the “so what do you do? (how much do you make?)” question with a humorous contradictory “title.” I know a guy who makes $350k and has a security clearance but wears white socks, is overweight, eats with his mouth open and is super awkward. That’s not a “catch,” in women’s eyes, unless he owns it without the usual creepy awkwardness, shame and/or insecurities. Sense of humor, directness, interests outside tech, goals in life, socioemotional self-awareness and demonstrated relentlessly-resourceful go-getterness is what makes women run. And don’t be so damn predictable. PS: skip Tinder unless you’re a 19-year-old sports player or an 20-/30-something model.

brycesbeard 7y ago

I’ve been speaking with my girlfriends friends, about the paucity of eligible men in the SFBA. Most of them ask me to introduce them to a nice person. Looks aren’t as important, but having a decent job is. Maybe it’s the age, but I found simply being kind and knowing your target market (women who like kind guys, who are everywhere, and are often smoking hot) works. Late 30s is a good time to date. I had the same issues as OP describes in my 20s, not in the Bay Area. It was all about how I subconsciously chose to approach things. I worked on myself, was genuine, and have had great success finding a mate up here. (Not all that attentive, about 50 lbs overweight, fwiw)

vharish 7y ago
Haha.. this is now taking an interesting turn.
arbol 7y ago
> Not all that attentive, about 50 lbs overweight, fwiw That's one hell of a dating site opener.

xenihn 7y ago

Dating in the Bay Area as a male engineer with average (or worse) looks is extremely easy if you're a white (or white-passing) FAANG employee (or you work at any other company that is obviously paying you $300k+ in the bay) who is willing to date PRC citizens. Gold-digging isn't relevant imo given that they also have tech incomes, and generally have rich families overseas to boot. I really don't understand why most guys here pass on them. The only reason I ever get from my friends when I ask is "I just don't like fobs". Whatever, more for me.

lowdose 7y ago
For anyone else wondering what "fobs" means. Oxford dictionary plural for: A chain attached to a watch for carrying in a waistcoat or waistband pocket.
- hsikka 7y ago
  I believe it is an acronym for "Fresh Off the Boat", i.e. an immigrant. It's a slang term and I personally don't use it too much but have heard it used fairly often.
  - xenihn 7y ago
    I'd argue that the modern definition has nothing to do with immigrant status, and is entirely about whether or not you can pass as a native English speaker. It just so happens that most people who have accents are immigrants, and you can reasonably assume that anyone who didn't grow up speaking English as a native language is going to have an accent. You are not a fob if you moved here from China at 9 years old, didn't read or speak your first word of English until then, and have no discernible accent as an adult. No one would call a Hong Konger with a HK English accent a fob either.
    - thatfrenchguy 7y ago
      > you can pass as a native English speaker Also clothing :-)

buboard 7y ago

Does this mean that womens aspirations are wildly different than men in SV? How do they manage to be significantly more interesting than men? What do they do to become ‘crotch magnets’?

partyboat1586 7y ago

Clipping nails is probably all you need from that list. You can still be unshaven (provided your stubble looks like man stubble, not pubes) be a bit of a dirtbag, earn slightly less money and get more women. No one gives a shit if you are well spoken, you can have a silver tongue without using the Queen's English, in fact it helps if you enjoy abusing grammar. As for attracting interesting women you actually wanna marry. Yeah you should probably have interests outside of tech. If all you are interested in is tech that makes you really boring because it's one of those subjects with no spillover. If you're an artist people might not appreciate the technicalities of mixing oil paints but they will enjoy looking at your paintings. Tech is impenetrable unless you are also in it. No one gives a fuck about that graph problem you solved that just made your distributed system more scalable because they don't understand half of those words. Imagine two people speaking a language you don't speak to each other and all they want to do is talk in that language. So boring.

maximente 7y ago

wow, i'm just sitting here imagining there are 150 applicants to 100 jobs and reading a response like this. "you need to work harder - a lot of people are just not that talented to employers - why aren't you outcompeting the others?" this seems straight up victim blaming. if there are 150 applicants and 100 jobs, there are 50 people who miss out. waging war to "one up" those other 149 (or 99 i guess) is certainly an avenue of possible pursuit but is likely to lead to misery IME. alternatively, removing yourself from a systematically horrible situation is probably pareto optimal. if there are 100 jobs and 80 applicants, you're suddenly in a way better situation. if you make six figures and can work remotely, the world is literally your oyster. there are opportunities to arbitrage your income and freedom and create the life you want - but it starts outside SFBA.

glangdale 7y ago
Hacker News is full of advice for people attempting to get successful outcomes in situations where there are 20,000 applicants to 100 jobs, so I'm amazed that a discussion of how you can improve your outcomes under a 150:100 ratio is now "victim blaming". Also, newsflash: not getting attention from the gender(s) of your choice doesn't make you a "victim". We're back to the entitlement thing, I guess. But yes, moving out of the Bay Area will help. However, I'd hazard a guess that unless someone moves to somewhere where a six-figure salary makes them a minor princeling, your problems may follow them. Because a boring dude in SF or the Bay is still a boring guy in Des Moines or Scranton.

nugari 7y ago

thank you for this comment. I've been in the Bay Area for about a year, and it pretty much encompasses all my dating experience here