14 ms·

Whatever happened to the noble art of the manly weep?

79 points by elbear 7y ago

rl3 7y ago
I cry less and less as I age: Teens? All the time. Perhaps monthly or even weekly at times. 20s? Less so, but more intensely. Perhaps every six months on average. 30s? Only twice in two years, and I'm a 32-year-old male now. Those times were basically weeping, and I'd thought I'd hit rock bottom in a mental health/depression context. Maybe I had, but life got much, much worse after that. The interesting thing however, is that somewhere along the line I lost the ability to cry. I'd want to cry, but I couldn't anymore. Haven't been able to for over a year now. It's like when you hit what you think is the bottom, you drop through to the basement. I hesitate to say it's an unfeeling basement—if anything it's more extreme feelings of despair—but it's certainly one where for whatever reason, crying no longer exists. When things were really bad recently, I'd look in a mirror and just see this tearless dry laugh or heave of despair. Wanted to cry, but it's like the emotional pain or stress or anxiety was too high to allow it. My best friend and I saw Joker during the midst of all this, and then we went home to make dinner after. It disturbed him a little when I nailed emulating the laugh without even trying, the first time. Usually I'm the one that can't do voices to save my life, and he's the one who can do anything. He couldn't do the Joker laugh no matter how much he tried. My theory is I had already experienced the aforementioned feeling in the mirror. I unwittingly had practice. You have to be either a really good actor, or seriously hurting to emulate that laugh correctly. It's a laugh because the tears are dry for some reason. That said, I'm sure despair can go far deeper still, and I really hope to never experience that. - It could be that crying is like a muscle. Perhaps it's a developed emotional mechanism that—when used appropriately—is beneficial to emotional well-being. However, like any muscle it can atrophy if it isn't used frequently enough, or lacks in sufficient nutrition. Maybe crying can only happen when conditions are right. If things get too bad, or you're too worn down, you lose the ability to do so. Perhaps crying doesn't happen because depression in combination with stress or anxiety are the primary reason for the despair. I'd probably cry immediately for the death of a loved one, for example. Whatever the case, that's my take on it. Everyone's different and likely has their own reasons why they cry or don't cry. As the article points out, societal factors of course play an outsized role as well. - Disclaimer: Wrote this simply for the exercise of it, to explore the topic. Not a plea for help or anything, I'm fine. Joker was a flawed yet excellent film that explored some serious mental health topics, and I dislike the notion that it somehow had a violent or anarchic message. Quite obviously the contrary in my opinion.
- elbear 7y ago
  The article says that crying has therapeutic purposes. I assume it's a purification process, something meant to release the burden. If that's true, then we as men have to suffer, because cultural norms prevent us from exercising this process.
- lodi 7y ago
  I'm 34, male. I feel like I just feel less as I age, both positive and negative. No crying, less anger, but also less giddy joy, less vivid imagination. When I was a child or teenager I could read a book and be the character. Now I'm just reading a book.
  - rl3 7y ago
    I've noticed something similar. I used to be able to get into games, like become completely immersed such that it was a magical experience. These days, no way. I'm not sure why it is, but I recall reading a few threads where people our age lament the same thing happening to them. In my case, I suspect it may be rooted in anxiety, guilt for fear of wasting time not being productive. Yet, illogically I'll end up hooked on certain competitive multiplayer games and waste the time just the same. I suspect certain games play into anxious behavior more, especially games with a short match format. The last single player game I truly enjoyed in a magical sense, I had to block out the time for it ahead of time, like it was a task to complete. That seemed to help a lot with enjoyment strangely enough.
    - elbear 7y ago
      From what I know, we feel less in order to not feel certain negative emotions we carry with us. I discovered recently a book that says we carry with us some "lifetraps" we picked-up during childhood. The lifetraps are: 1. "Please, don't leave me!" - The Abandonment Lifetrap 2. "I can't trust you" - The Mistrust and Abuse Lifetrap 3. "I'll never get the love I need" - The Emotional Deprivation Lifetrap 4. "I don't fit in" - The Social Exclusion Lifetrap 5. "I can't make it on my own" - The Dependence Lifetrap 6. "Catastrophe is about to strike" - The Vulnerability Lifetrap 7. "I'm worthless" - The Defectiveness Lifetrap 8. "I feel like such a failure" - The Failure Lifetrap 9. "I always do it your way" - The Subjugation Lifetrap 10. "It's never quite good enough" - The Unrelenting Standards Lifetrap 11. "I can have whatever I want" - The Entitlement Lifetrap One way we cope with them is by avoiding the feelings they cause and we do that by numbing ourselves. LE: The book is called "Reinventing Your Life: The Breakthrough Program to End Negative Behavior" by Jeffrey Young.
deleted 7y ago
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Meditato 7y ago
I have a few thoughts. 1. Vague historical anecdotes are not quantitative evidence. 2. Existing biological evidence supports an inverse relationship between testosterone and tear production. 3. Stoicism is a sexual selection criterion found in human attraction research to be used by women, along with complexion, height, upper body strength, and facial symmetry. 4. Anecdotally, I find that men are often crying around friends. I find that they don't like crying around superiors. Additionally I, and many men who have compared notes, find that women in particular don't seem to like their SOs crying. That would seem to fit in with 3.
sebastianconcpt 7y ago
This is no place to discuss masculinity.
Clubber 7y ago
Life is suffering. We cry because someone convinced us it's not. Fairy tales are just that. Read deep into history for perspective. We're at the 100th anniversary of the Spanish Flu that happened right after WWI. If we were living 100 years ago, we still have Prohibition, mass bank failures, the Great Depression and WWII to look forward to before mid-century. Be thankful you aren't in a trench.
- ptah 7y ago
  most of those problems were self-inflicted
  - Clubber 7y ago
    >most of those problems were self-inflicted Sure, it's the fault of the 18 year old draftee getting shelled in a trench for 4 straight days. It's the fault of the farmer who lost his life savings because a bank shut down. It's the fault of the young factory worker that Hitler decided to invade Poland. Self inflicted by whom exactly? Maybe you should reevaluate that statement.
nickthegreek 7y ago
I was listening to the NYT Daily podcast yesterday and they were talking about the Soleimani funeral and how Khamenei voice cracked and openly cried while delivering a prayer. I thought that was pretty amazing and rare for a world leader, especially a strong man type.
friedegg 7y ago
I found out my mom died while I was at work, age 37, after a short illness (I was going to see her the next week), and although I generally kept it together that day, at one point, while talking to one of my staff on the phone, I just completely lost it. I think I cried in a way I hadn't ever before (maybe I've had a fortunate life). What was oddest to me was that I couldn't control it at all, but I was still able to think and even had a conversation with them over Slack while this was happening.
- tartoran 7y ago
  I'm sorry for your loss. I still remember when my dad died too, I was about 21 at the time and got a phone call that my dad was taken by an ambulance. I was at work and jumped into a cab, I arrived at the ER and they would not let me see him directly, told me they need to talk to me and my family in a separate room. They tried to cushion it but broke it to us eventually. That uncontrollable sobbing in front of the hospital, some strangers were hugging and trying to console me, feels like a natural response to personal tragedy. I am in my 40s and rarely cry but if I could I'd do, it's such a cathartic feeling.
rofo1 7y ago
The last two times that I've cried were both at a funeral of close family members. That was 2 years and ~10 years ago, I believe. I don't remember any other instances (maybe when I was a little kid, but I don't remember). When I say 'cried', I mean.. there were tears on my face. I wasn't screaming and crying manically etc. Why cry, anyway? Unless someone dies or is extremely ill, everything else seems tolerable to me. As someone that have extensively studied history and evolutionary biology, I know exactly how good life is for me (and for many people, really). There's absolutely no reason to cry or feel sad about anything, especially things beyond my control. Right now, we are connected through an online forum from our homes. It's just amazing! We got transportation, we can visit other countries, we have freedom (of some sort), some of us are in great physical shape, financially free, etc., we got running water, we got all possible foods from each corner of the world, we got infinite entertainment, etc. etc. I don't want to offend anyone, but when I see a person that's not satisfied based on these things alone (sanitary, water, food, not that many active wars), that's a person that has no idea about the history of our species. This is life on the easiest mode ever recorded. Cherish it.
- SolaceQuantum 7y ago
  TBH I'm super happy to live in a world where someone is crying based on things unrelated to basic survival. I want to actively work to a world where everyone's lowest low point of life is something I would consider just a minor inconvenience.
NickM 7y ago
It's sad to me that the social discourse on gender has become so combative. I think many people on all sides of the debate feel like feminism is a zero-sum movement, where the way to raise women up is to tear men down. In practice, I feel like gender inequality can hurt both men and women in different ways. More gender equality allows everyone more freedom to choose their own path in life and express their true selves without being forced into a set of stereotypical molds.
- Zelphyr 7y ago
  I'm curious what about that piece you thought was combative? My reading of it simply points out that women cry more than men in this day and age. To me, it would be stating the obvious were it not for the contrast to the ratios in past ages but, still, not really combative or anti-feminist.
  - NickM 7y ago
    I didn’t think this particular piece was combative at all; I was just commenting more generally on the state of society. I actually thought this piece gave a really good supporting example of the point I was trying to make in my comment.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- rjkennedy98 7y ago
  Its not so much as zero-sum but essentially schizophrenic. On one side we have a culture of extreme sexual liberation, with the media, hookup culture, and the porn industry, and on the other side we have the yes-means-yes, firings for touching a women's back (Garrison Keillor), special legal proceedings for sexual assault accusers, ect. How is anyone supposed to navigate a culture as complex as this?
  - ameister14 7y ago
    Just want to point out that this is a misuse of the word schizophrenic; if you are going to link extreme swings to a psychological disorder, the one you're likely looking for is bipolar. Simplifying it, schizophrenia is when you see and hear things that aren't there.
theFeller00 7y ago
I haven't cried in a decade. Since I attended the last family funeral. Before that, it was probably another decade. What are feelings.
- sfgweilr4f 7y ago
  The decode of sad feelings into binary is 10101011111101000101010101000000001011111112
  - sfgweilr4f 7y ago
    which is a shame since 2 definitely makes most logic sad.
throw_20200107 7y ago
Strange timing of this article.. https://apnews.com/14792cc1d7f73ffec8f8c425b73b44fb https://apnews.com/14792cc1d7f73ffec8f8c425b73b44fb
matwood 7y ago
I've never seen a problem with crying, although I don't cry easily. Stub my toe? No reason to cry. I had to suddenly euthanize one of my dogs on new years eve and I cried like a baby. One thing I have noticed though is that I can cry about a situation and then I'm good to go. My wife on the other hand will cry off and on for days. Maybe the no crying thing came out of the typical need to get things done after whatever crying situation occurred?
welly 7y ago
I've cried occasionally in recent years through laughter but never through sorrow. Mid 40s now but I have few recollections of crying through sorrow since I was a child - all brought on either by the breakup of a relationship or the death of a grandparent. I suspect I'd probably keep my crying to myself if I had a reason to, which seems to go against the norm on the internet. On reddit in particular, people can't seemingly wait to announce their tears over one thing or another. It's like a competition as to who is the most emotional. Part of me thinks "Good on you, I wish I was that emotional", the other part of me thinks they're crying out for attention.
- dsfyu404ed 7y ago
  Agreed. I'm not very emotional. I've nearly cried once in my adult life and that was at a funeral for someone close. I don't think I'm missing much but I'm sure people will contend I don't know what I'm missing, oh well. Reddit is a very bad place to go for a picture resembling "reality for normal people". The format of the website is very conducive to people trying to one-up each other with their conformance to whatever things are popular at the time and that gets divorced from reality really quickly.
Zelphyr 7y ago
I've been saying for awhile that we need to work against the stigma of crying. Sure, sobbing because your idea isn't chosen at the office probably isn't going to get you anywhere but that's not what I'm talking about. When we're sad, we should allow ourselves and each other the space to be sad and if that means crying then we should do so. Replace "crying" with "pooping" and see how senseless the stigma becomes. You don't need to do it in public but only bad things happen when you try to prevent it. It's a perfectly normal physiological process. What makes the stigma even more odd is that we accept it when we see a strong male character crying in a movie or on TV. On the surface it was absurd when Tom Hanks was crying over losing "Wilson" yet we understood it, and related to it. In his isolation-induced mental state, he had lost a loved one. There was no shame in that. Would we think the same if our co-worker choked up when describing how his cat had just died?
screye 7y ago
> It’s time to open the floodgates. Time for men to give up emulating the stone-faced heroes of action movies and be more like the emotive heroes of Homer, like the weeping kings, saints and statesmen of thousands of years of human history. I fully support the premise, but it clearly ignores the reality. A man has to first be convinced that the environment around him will not reject him for crying, before expecting him to be vulnerable in such an unfamiliar way. Will a crying man be deemed as someone unsuitable for being the emotional pillar in a relationship ? Will a crying man be seen as someone who can't deal with crisis ? Will a crying man be seen to be a child ? No matter how much we tell someone it is alright, they won't believe it to be true until the environment shows it to be so. People talk about toxic masculinity as though it is a problem created only by men. But, the idea of it pervades throughout society. Affecting children, women and men alike. Men can't be the only ones battling it. A comment pointed towards Khamenei crying at Soleimani's funeral as a sign towards encouraging men to cry. However, I only see it as an example for the contrary. Crying for men carries a weight, that implies that it must be reserved for an occasion special enough to warrant it. Had men crying at the death of their closest friend been customary, then Khamenei's voice cracking at the funeral would have never been reported as a special observation.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
  > I fully support the premise, but it clearly ignores the reality. A man has to first be convinced that the environment around him will not reject him for crying, before expecting him to be vulnerable in such an unfamiliar way. I dunno, I guess my conception of manliness is different because I think what makes "manly weeping" different from conventional weeping is precisely that emotion has so moved a man as to make social consequences irrelevant.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- bluntfang 7y ago
  > Men can't be the only ones battling it. Literally everyone else but men are battling it, and very publicly. #metoo is a great example.
lordleft 7y ago
One the pillars of western masculinity, the Iliad, is replete with the tears of heroes. Men -- sometimes quite violent and aggressive men -- have historically felt quite free to use tears to express their anxiety and grief. "Agamemnon shed tears as it were a dark-running stream or cataract on the side of some sheer cliff." https://chs.harvard.edu/CHS/article/display/6812.iii-4-the-language-of-tears https://chs.harvard.edu/CHS/article/display/6812.iii-4-the-l...
mjd 7y ago
I can call spirits from the manly weep.
Waterluvian 7y ago
I've seen my dad cry once, and it involved the death of my mom. From his lack of crying I learned an important lesson that I've been sharing with my kids (1 and 2): it's okay to cry. I cry in front of them when I'm sad. And then I talk about why I feel the way I do, and that it will be okay. My oldest is developing wonderful empathy. "Why are you sad, daddy?" And then we talk about it. He probably doesn't understand it a lot, but I know he's learning that it's okay to feel these feelings. Sadness is not a nice feeling, but it's a valid feeling. I think too often people see sadness as a bug that needs fixing. It's okay to be sad, and then you eventually stop being sad. Closely related to this is another lesson I learned from my dad on not what to do. He's Willy Loman levels of optimistic. Thousands of times I've heard him go on and on about how great the day was, how much progress is happening at work, how the next big breakthrough is over the next hill. But as his child growing up, I badly needed him to occasionally say, "today didn't go well. X rejected our offer and Y isn't working so we have to start over on that one. But it's okay because these days happen and tomorrow might be better." To this date I'm still struggling with the reality that life, by design, has bad days, and that's fine.
- zrail 7y ago
  > He probably doesn't understand it a lot, but I know he's learning that it's okay to feel these feelings. You're a good dad. I've been trying to do this with my kids too (both girls). Teaching them that feelings are real, and valid, and trying to teach them ways to productively handle them.
  - signalremotefac 7y ago
    Are you being good to them? Are you doing it for them? The person you are replying to seems to be crying AT his children. "watch me cry!" "see how I feel!" "look wife, I'm a good man now!". To me, this seems to be self-indulgence. For example he is boasting "My oldest is developing wonderful empathy." Read: I am imposing the whims of a group I see myself as been good for associating with onto my child. This is not what a father is for. I've seen my father cry a few times. The most recent was when my cousin commited suicide. He meant it. It was not an exhibtion of his goodness, but the acknowledgment of her goodness.
deleted 7y ago
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ergothus 7y ago
I don't really cry. I don't know how to. Don't get me wrong - I get choked up, I get teary. I'm actually rather easily emotional - any tear-jerker movie will get to me. But once I have the emotion, I don't know how to let it out. I WANT to. When I look at my wife and female friends, they all occasionally have a good cry as an emotional outlet, and while whatever prompted that is bad, the cry itself is a good outlet. They can feel better for having done it. But me? I just feel like all the emotions are stuck and I'm clogged up. I'm not consciously fighting it, thinking I have to protect my manhood. While others being around does make it worse, I can't have this kind of release in private either. I don't know how much is subconscious and how much is the fact that I've spent 4+ decades NOT crying and I just don't know how to. I don't strive for the "manly weep" that the article describes - I want to be able to all out bawl and just let this out.
- iamatworknow 7y ago
  Almost the exact same story here. I'm in my mid 30's, and the last time I cried was when I was a teenager, aside from also tearing up during some movies. Definitely not like I'm fighting it, I just don't know how. Case in point, my father passed away rather suddenly on Christmas Eve -- just two weeks ago today. We weren't super close, but I do have fond memories of him. I haven't cried once. When I was informed of his death by my brother, who was tearing up as he told me, I literally just said "Damn..." and then drove around for a few hours aimlessly thinking. It seems like I should, like I'm SUPPOSED to cry, to the point where I feel like something's wrong with me because I haven't. Now I'm concerned that weeks or months from now I'll end up being triggered by something in an inopportune public place and just start bawling. But who knows?
domador 7y ago
There's a phrase that macho men should start telling each other ASAP: "Cry like a man!" (This would mean to cry openly, deeply, and bravely, since a great many sorrows require good grieving and crying is a healthy outlet for grief. Crying is much less damaging to others and to oneself than other regrettably-common male outlets for grief, such as getting drunk and/or domestic violence.) I hope one day crying by men becomes more acceptable to society. Life is often painful. Grieving is often necessary.
geocrasher 7y ago
Hello. I am a man. I cry. And it's not always at the right time or the right amount. I'm a person who buries his feelings, but they can't help but come out. I used to bury them deeply, and didn't cope with them at all. This was seriously unhealthy and as a result, my mental health suffered. Then I learned how to cope some, and things got better. The more I coped with my feelings instead of burying them, the more I cried. That's not to say I cry all the time, but if a song hits me the right way, or even a good dance routine on World of Dance or some other show catches my heart the right way, I'm crying. Not just weeping, but holding back deep sobs. Those deep sobs are an overreaction, of course. Why do I have to fight deep sobs at something as simple as a touching dance routine? I think it's because I have a LOT going on in my life, some of them quite troubling. Serious health issues in my family which have altered our life significantly, and will cause damage for years to come- for a life time for my daughter and I. My wife is dying and doesn't have much time left. And while I try to be brave for her, she knows how much it troubles me- despite that I have a firm hope for the future and I know it'll all be okay in the end- it still troubles me. For her sake I try to hold back my tears, but this backfires. What was a suppressed weep here and a stifled weep there is suddenly gushing forth right in the middle of a less serious discussion! It's not the right time. Why do these inopportune things happen? Because I've not learned to be okay with crying. If I could manage to be okay with having many smaller sessions of crying, at the right times, then these outbursts of crying wouldn't be there. As it is I hold them back enough that they'll eventually come out in a more dramatic scream sobbing fit that lasts several minutes and usually leaves me without a voice for a week. Weeping isn't manly. Weeping isn't for women. Weeping is for humans. Hello. I am a human. I cry.

79 points by elbear 7y ago

rl3 7y ago

I cry less and less as I age: Teens? All the time. Perhaps monthly or even weekly at times. 20s? Less so, but more intensely. Perhaps every six months on average. 30s? Only twice in two years, and I'm a 32-year-old male now. Those times were basically weeping, and I'd thought I'd hit rock bottom in a mental health/depression context. Maybe I had, but life got much, much worse after that. The interesting thing however, is that somewhere along the line I lost the ability to cry. I'd want to cry, but I couldn't anymore. Haven't been able to for over a year now. It's like when you hit what you think is the bottom, you drop through to the basement. I hesitate to say it's an unfeeling basement—if anything it's more extreme feelings of despair—but it's certainly one where for whatever reason, crying no longer exists. When things were really bad recently, I'd look in a mirror and just see this tearless dry laugh or heave of despair. Wanted to cry, but it's like the emotional pain or stress or anxiety was too high to allow it. My best friend and I saw Joker during the midst of all this, and then we went home to make dinner after. It disturbed him a little when I nailed emulating the laugh without even trying, the first time. Usually I'm the one that can't do voices to save my life, and he's the one who can do anything. He couldn't do the Joker laugh no matter how much he tried. My theory is I had already experienced the aforementioned feeling in the mirror. I unwittingly had practice. You have to be either a really good actor, or seriously hurting to emulate that laugh correctly. It's a laugh because the tears are dry for some reason. That said, I'm sure despair can go far deeper still, and I really hope to never experience that. - It could be that crying is like a muscle. Perhaps it's a developed emotional mechanism that—when used appropriately—is beneficial to emotional well-being. However, like any muscle it can atrophy if it isn't used frequently enough, or lacks in sufficient nutrition. Maybe crying can only happen when conditions are right. If things get too bad, or you're too worn down, you lose the ability to do so. Perhaps crying doesn't happen because depression in combination with stress or anxiety are the primary reason for the despair. I'd probably cry immediately for the death of a loved one, for example. Whatever the case, that's my take on it. Everyone's different and likely has their own reasons why they cry or don't cry. As the article points out, societal factors of course play an outsized role as well. - Disclaimer: Wrote this simply for the exercise of it, to explore the topic. Not a plea for help or anything, I'm fine. Joker was a flawed yet excellent film that explored some serious mental health topics, and I dislike the notion that it somehow had a violent or anarchic message. Quite obviously the contrary in my opinion.

elbear 7y ago
The article says that crying has therapeutic purposes. I assume it's a purification process, something meant to release the burden. If that's true, then we as men have to suffer, because cultural norms prevent us from exercising this process.
lodi 7y ago
I'm 34, male. I feel like I just feel less as I age, both positive and negative. No crying, less anger, but also less giddy joy, less vivid imagination. When I was a child or teenager I could read a book and be the character. Now I'm just reading a book.
- rl3 7y ago
  I've noticed something similar. I used to be able to get into games, like become completely immersed such that it was a magical experience. These days, no way. I'm not sure why it is, but I recall reading a few threads where people our age lament the same thing happening to them. In my case, I suspect it may be rooted in anxiety, guilt for fear of wasting time not being productive. Yet, illogically I'll end up hooked on certain competitive multiplayer games and waste the time just the same. I suspect certain games play into anxious behavior more, especially games with a short match format. The last single player game I truly enjoyed in a magical sense, I had to block out the time for it ahead of time, like it was a task to complete. That seemed to help a lot with enjoyment strangely enough.
  - elbear 7y ago
    From what I know, we feel less in order to not feel certain negative emotions we carry with us. I discovered recently a book that says we carry with us some "lifetraps" we picked-up during childhood. The lifetraps are: 1. "Please, don't leave me!" - The Abandonment Lifetrap 2. "I can't trust you" - The Mistrust and Abuse Lifetrap 3. "I'll never get the love I need" - The Emotional Deprivation Lifetrap 4. "I don't fit in" - The Social Exclusion Lifetrap 5. "I can't make it on my own" - The Dependence Lifetrap 6. "Catastrophe is about to strike" - The Vulnerability Lifetrap 7. "I'm worthless" - The Defectiveness Lifetrap 8. "I feel like such a failure" - The Failure Lifetrap 9. "I always do it your way" - The Subjugation Lifetrap 10. "It's never quite good enough" - The Unrelenting Standards Lifetrap 11. "I can have whatever I want" - The Entitlement Lifetrap One way we cope with them is by avoiding the feelings they cause and we do that by numbing ourselves. LE: The book is called "Reinventing Your Life: The Breakthrough Program to End Negative Behavior" by Jeffrey Young.

deleted 7y ago

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Meditato 7y ago

I have a few thoughts. 1. Vague historical anecdotes are not quantitative evidence. 2. Existing biological evidence supports an inverse relationship between testosterone and tear production. 3. Stoicism is a sexual selection criterion found in human attraction research to be used by women, along with complexion, height, upper body strength, and facial symmetry. 4. Anecdotally, I find that men are often crying around friends. I find that they don't like crying around superiors. Additionally I, and many men who have compared notes, find that women in particular don't seem to like their SOs crying. That would seem to fit in with 3.

sebastianconcpt 7y ago

This is no place to discuss masculinity.

Clubber 7y ago

Life is suffering. We cry because someone convinced us it's not. Fairy tales are just that. Read deep into history for perspective. We're at the 100th anniversary of the Spanish Flu that happened right after WWI. If we were living 100 years ago, we still have Prohibition, mass bank failures, the Great Depression and WWII to look forward to before mid-century. Be thankful you aren't in a trench.

ptah 7y ago
most of those problems were self-inflicted
- Clubber 7y ago
  >most of those problems were self-inflicted Sure, it's the fault of the 18 year old draftee getting shelled in a trench for 4 straight days. It's the fault of the farmer who lost his life savings because a bank shut down. It's the fault of the young factory worker that Hitler decided to invade Poland. Self inflicted by whom exactly? Maybe you should reevaluate that statement.

nickthegreek 7y ago

I was listening to the NYT Daily podcast yesterday and they were talking about the Soleimani funeral and how Khamenei voice cracked and openly cried while delivering a prayer. I thought that was pretty amazing and rare for a world leader, especially a strong man type.

friedegg 7y ago

I found out my mom died while I was at work, age 37, after a short illness (I was going to see her the next week), and although I generally kept it together that day, at one point, while talking to one of my staff on the phone, I just completely lost it. I think I cried in a way I hadn't ever before (maybe I've had a fortunate life). What was oddest to me was that I couldn't control it at all, but I was still able to think and even had a conversation with them over Slack while this was happening.

tartoran 7y ago
I'm sorry for your loss. I still remember when my dad died too, I was about 21 at the time and got a phone call that my dad was taken by an ambulance. I was at work and jumped into a cab, I arrived at the ER and they would not let me see him directly, told me they need to talk to me and my family in a separate room. They tried to cushion it but broke it to us eventually. That uncontrollable sobbing in front of the hospital, some strangers were hugging and trying to console me, feels like a natural response to personal tragedy. I am in my 40s and rarely cry but if I could I'd do, it's such a cathartic feeling.

rofo1 7y ago

The last two times that I've cried were both at a funeral of close family members. That was 2 years and ~10 years ago, I believe. I don't remember any other instances (maybe when I was a little kid, but I don't remember). When I say 'cried', I mean.. there were tears on my face. I wasn't screaming and crying manically etc. Why cry, anyway? Unless someone dies or is extremely ill, everything else seems tolerable to me. As someone that have extensively studied history and evolutionary biology, I know exactly how good life is for me (and for many people, really). There's absolutely no reason to cry or feel sad about anything, especially things beyond my control. Right now, we are connected through an online forum from our homes. It's just amazing! We got transportation, we can visit other countries, we have freedom (of some sort), some of us are in great physical shape, financially free, etc., we got running water, we got all possible foods from each corner of the world, we got infinite entertainment, etc. etc. I don't want to offend anyone, but when I see a person that's not satisfied based on these things alone (sanitary, water, food, not that many active wars), that's a person that has no idea about the history of our species. This is life on the easiest mode ever recorded. Cherish it.

SolaceQuantum 7y ago
TBH I'm super happy to live in a world where someone is crying based on things unrelated to basic survival. I want to actively work to a world where everyone's lowest low point of life is something I would consider just a minor inconvenience.

NickM 7y ago

It's sad to me that the social discourse on gender has become so combative. I think many people on all sides of the debate feel like feminism is a zero-sum movement, where the way to raise women up is to tear men down. In practice, I feel like gender inequality can hurt both men and women in different ways. More gender equality allows everyone more freedom to choose their own path in life and express their true selves without being forced into a set of stereotypical molds.

Zelphyr 7y ago
I'm curious what about that piece you thought was combative? My reading of it simply points out that women cry more than men in this day and age. To me, it would be stating the obvious were it not for the contrast to the ratios in past ages but, still, not really combative or anti-feminist.
- NickM 7y ago
  I didn’t think this particular piece was combative at all; I was just commenting more generally on the state of society. I actually thought this piece gave a really good supporting example of the point I was trying to make in my comment.
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rjkennedy98 7y ago
Its not so much as zero-sum but essentially schizophrenic. On one side we have a culture of extreme sexual liberation, with the media, hookup culture, and the porn industry, and on the other side we have the yes-means-yes, firings for touching a women's back (Garrison Keillor), special legal proceedings for sexual assault accusers, ect. How is anyone supposed to navigate a culture as complex as this?
- ameister14 7y ago
  Just want to point out that this is a misuse of the word schizophrenic; if you are going to link extreme swings to a psychological disorder, the one you're likely looking for is bipolar. Simplifying it, schizophrenia is when you see and hear things that aren't there.

theFeller00 7y ago

I haven't cried in a decade. Since I attended the last family funeral. Before that, it was probably another decade. What are feelings.

sfgweilr4f 7y ago
The decode of sad feelings into binary is 10101011111101000101010101000000001011111112
- sfgweilr4f 7y ago
  which is a shame since 2 definitely makes most logic sad.

throw_20200107 7y ago

Strange timing of this article.. https://apnews.com/14792cc1d7f73ffec8f8c425b73b44fb https://apnews.com/14792cc1d7f73ffec8f8c425b73b44fb

matwood 7y ago

I've never seen a problem with crying, although I don't cry easily. Stub my toe? No reason to cry. I had to suddenly euthanize one of my dogs on new years eve and I cried like a baby. One thing I have noticed though is that I can cry about a situation and then I'm good to go. My wife on the other hand will cry off and on for days. Maybe the no crying thing came out of the typical need to get things done after whatever crying situation occurred?

welly 7y ago

I've cried occasionally in recent years through laughter but never through sorrow. Mid 40s now but I have few recollections of crying through sorrow since I was a child - all brought on either by the breakup of a relationship or the death of a grandparent. I suspect I'd probably keep my crying to myself if I had a reason to, which seems to go against the norm on the internet. On reddit in particular, people can't seemingly wait to announce their tears over one thing or another. It's like a competition as to who is the most emotional. Part of me thinks "Good on you, I wish I was that emotional", the other part of me thinks they're crying out for attention.

dsfyu404ed 7y ago
Agreed. I'm not very emotional. I've nearly cried once in my adult life and that was at a funeral for someone close. I don't think I'm missing much but I'm sure people will contend I don't know what I'm missing, oh well. Reddit is a very bad place to go for a picture resembling "reality for normal people". The format of the website is very conducive to people trying to one-up each other with their conformance to whatever things are popular at the time and that gets divorced from reality really quickly.

Zelphyr 7y ago

I've been saying for awhile that we need to work against the stigma of crying. Sure, sobbing because your idea isn't chosen at the office probably isn't going to get you anywhere but that's not what I'm talking about. When we're sad, we should allow ourselves and each other the space to be sad and if that means crying then we should do so. Replace "crying" with "pooping" and see how senseless the stigma becomes. You don't need to do it in public but only bad things happen when you try to prevent it. It's a perfectly normal physiological process. What makes the stigma even more odd is that we accept it when we see a strong male character crying in a movie or on TV. On the surface it was absurd when Tom Hanks was crying over losing "Wilson" yet we understood it, and related to it. In his isolation-induced mental state, he had lost a loved one. There was no shame in that. Would we think the same if our co-worker choked up when describing how his cat had just died?

screye 7y ago

> It’s time to open the floodgates. Time for men to give up emulating the stone-faced heroes of action movies and be more like the emotive heroes of Homer, like the weeping kings, saints and statesmen of thousands of years of human history. I fully support the premise, but it clearly ignores the reality. A man has to first be convinced that the environment around him will not reject him for crying, before expecting him to be vulnerable in such an unfamiliar way. Will a crying man be deemed as someone unsuitable for being the emotional pillar in a relationship ? Will a crying man be seen as someone who can't deal with crisis ? Will a crying man be seen to be a child ? No matter how much we tell someone it is alright, they won't believe it to be true until the environment shows it to be so. People talk about toxic masculinity as though it is a problem created only by men. But, the idea of it pervades throughout society. Affecting children, women and men alike. Men can't be the only ones battling it. A comment pointed towards Khamenei crying at Soleimani's funeral as a sign towards encouraging men to cry. However, I only see it as an example for the contrary. Crying for men carries a weight, that implies that it must be reserved for an occasion special enough to warrant it. Had men crying at the death of their closest friend been customary, then Khamenei's voice cracking at the funeral would have never been reported as a special observation.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 7y ago
> I fully support the premise, but it clearly ignores the reality. A man has to first be convinced that the environment around him will not reject him for crying, before expecting him to be vulnerable in such an unfamiliar way. I dunno, I guess my conception of manliness is different because I think what makes "manly weeping" different from conventional weeping is precisely that emotion has so moved a man as to make social consequences irrelevant.
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bluntfang 7y ago
> Men can't be the only ones battling it. Literally everyone else but men are battling it, and very publicly. #metoo is a great example.

lordleft 7y ago

One the pillars of western masculinity, the Iliad, is replete with the tears of heroes. Men -- sometimes quite violent and aggressive men -- have historically felt quite free to use tears to express their anxiety and grief. "Agamemnon shed tears as it were a dark-running stream or cataract on the side of some sheer cliff." https://chs.harvard.edu/CHS/article/display/6812.iii-4-the-language-of-tears https://chs.harvard.edu/CHS/article/display/6812.iii-4-the-l...

mjd 7y ago

I can call spirits from the manly weep.

Waterluvian 7y ago

I've seen my dad cry once, and it involved the death of my mom. From his lack of crying I learned an important lesson that I've been sharing with my kids (1 and 2): it's okay to cry. I cry in front of them when I'm sad. And then I talk about why I feel the way I do, and that it will be okay. My oldest is developing wonderful empathy. "Why are you sad, daddy?" And then we talk about it. He probably doesn't understand it a lot, but I know he's learning that it's okay to feel these feelings. Sadness is not a nice feeling, but it's a valid feeling. I think too often people see sadness as a bug that needs fixing. It's okay to be sad, and then you eventually stop being sad. Closely related to this is another lesson I learned from my dad on not what to do. He's Willy Loman levels of optimistic. Thousands of times I've heard him go on and on about how great the day was, how much progress is happening at work, how the next big breakthrough is over the next hill. But as his child growing up, I badly needed him to occasionally say, "today didn't go well. X rejected our offer and Y isn't working so we have to start over on that one. But it's okay because these days happen and tomorrow might be better." To this date I'm still struggling with the reality that life, by design, has bad days, and that's fine.

zrail 7y ago
> He probably doesn't understand it a lot, but I know he's learning that it's okay to feel these feelings. You're a good dad. I've been trying to do this with my kids too (both girls). Teaching them that feelings are real, and valid, and trying to teach them ways to productively handle them.
- signalremotefac 7y ago
  Are you being good to them? Are you doing it for them? The person you are replying to seems to be crying AT his children. "watch me cry!" "see how I feel!" "look wife, I'm a good man now!". To me, this seems to be self-indulgence. For example he is boasting "My oldest is developing wonderful empathy." Read: I am imposing the whims of a group I see myself as been good for associating with onto my child. This is not what a father is for. I've seen my father cry a few times. The most recent was when my cousin commited suicide. He meant it. It was not an exhibtion of his goodness, but the acknowledgment of her goodness.

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ergothus 7y ago

I don't really cry. I don't know how to. Don't get me wrong - I get choked up, I get teary. I'm actually rather easily emotional - any tear-jerker movie will get to me. But once I have the emotion, I don't know how to let it out. I WANT to. When I look at my wife and female friends, they all occasionally have a good cry as an emotional outlet, and while whatever prompted that is bad, the cry itself is a good outlet. They can feel better for having done it. But me? I just feel like all the emotions are stuck and I'm clogged up. I'm not consciously fighting it, thinking I have to protect my manhood. While others being around does make it worse, I can't have this kind of release in private either. I don't know how much is subconscious and how much is the fact that I've spent 4+ decades NOT crying and I just don't know how to. I don't strive for the "manly weep" that the article describes - I want to be able to all out bawl and just let this out.

iamatworknow 7y ago
Almost the exact same story here. I'm in my mid 30's, and the last time I cried was when I was a teenager, aside from also tearing up during some movies. Definitely not like I'm fighting it, I just don't know how. Case in point, my father passed away rather suddenly on Christmas Eve -- just two weeks ago today. We weren't super close, but I do have fond memories of him. I haven't cried once. When I was informed of his death by my brother, who was tearing up as he told me, I literally just said "Damn..." and then drove around for a few hours aimlessly thinking. It seems like I should, like I'm SUPPOSED to cry, to the point where I feel like something's wrong with me because I haven't. Now I'm concerned that weeks or months from now I'll end up being triggered by something in an inopportune public place and just start bawling. But who knows?

domador 7y ago

There's a phrase that macho men should start telling each other ASAP: "Cry like a man!" (This would mean to cry openly, deeply, and bravely, since a great many sorrows require good grieving and crying is a healthy outlet for grief. Crying is much less damaging to others and to oneself than other regrettably-common male outlets for grief, such as getting drunk and/or domestic violence.) I hope one day crying by men becomes more acceptable to society. Life is often painful. Grieving is often necessary.

geocrasher 7y ago

Hello. I am a man. I cry. And it's not always at the right time or the right amount. I'm a person who buries his feelings, but they can't help but come out. I used to bury them deeply, and didn't cope with them at all. This was seriously unhealthy and as a result, my mental health suffered. Then I learned how to cope some, and things got better. The more I coped with my feelings instead of burying them, the more I cried. That's not to say I cry all the time, but if a song hits me the right way, or even a good dance routine on World of Dance or some other show catches my heart the right way, I'm crying. Not just weeping, but holding back deep sobs. Those deep sobs are an overreaction, of course. Why do I have to fight deep sobs at something as simple as a touching dance routine? I think it's because I have a LOT going on in my life, some of them quite troubling. Serious health issues in my family which have altered our life significantly, and will cause damage for years to come- for a life time for my daughter and I. My wife is dying and doesn't have much time left. And while I try to be brave for her, she knows how much it troubles me- despite that I have a firm hope for the future and I know it'll all be okay in the end- it still troubles me. For her sake I try to hold back my tears, but this backfires. What was a suppressed weep here and a stifled weep there is suddenly gushing forth right in the middle of a less serious discussion! It's not the right time. Why do these inopportune things happen? Because I've not learned to be okay with crying. If I could manage to be okay with having many smaller sessions of crying, at the right times, then these outbursts of crying wouldn't be there. As it is I hold them back enough that they'll eventually come out in a more dramatic scream sobbing fit that lasts several minutes and usually leaves me without a voice for a week. Weeping isn't manly. Weeping isn't for women. Weeping is for humans. Hello. I am a human. I cry.