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Excerpt: A secretive startup backed by Bill Gates has achieved a solar breakthrough aimed at saving the planet. Heliogen, a clean energy company that emerged f

Excerpt: A secretive startup backed by Bill Gates has achieved a solar breakthrough aimed at saving the planet. Heliogen, a clean energy company that emerged from stealth mode on Tuesday, said it has discovered a way to use artificial intelligence and a field of mirrors to reflect so much sunlight that it generates extreme heat above 1,000 degrees Celsius. ===== The article describes a bit about the role the AI is playing, and Heliogen didn't seem to me to have used "AI" as a buzzword

amboo7 7y ago
How does this compare to, for example, https://www.promes.cnrs.fr/index.php?page=concentrateurs-solaires https://www.promes.cnrs.fr/index.php?page=concentrateurs-sol... (3000°C)? I personally visited one such site in Southern France more than 30 years ago.
- the8472 7y ago
  That's a research/materials testing facility. Heliogen is aiming for industrial applications which means it has to scale more cheaply than a bespoke installation.
  - mads 7y ago
    So the breakthrough is really in production methods of the facilities?
solarengineer 7y ago
This was posted on HN before: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21573694 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21573694 Animats gave a nice summary [1] of the Vox article [2] that went into some detail. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21580596 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21580596 [2] https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2019/11/19/20970252/climate-change-solar-heat-heliogen-csp https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2019/11/19/20970252/c...
Waterluvian 7y ago
I fundamentally cannot perceive where AI plays a role. Isn't it just a solvable geometry problem?
- splittingTimes 7y ago
  "Heliogen uses computer vision software, automatic edge detection and other sophisticated technology to train a field of mirrors to reflect solar beams to one single spot." In principle I think you are right, but that would mean for each plant you build you need the exact position of each mirror, the oven chamber and the motion of the sun through the day and year. I think the "AI" approach scales better, as it is rather simple "AI" application.
  - gonzo41 7y ago
    wouldn't just giving all of the mirrors survey quality GPS do the same. you'd be able to then just have them work out the angles as it relates to them and the target. It doesn't really seems like and AI problem.
    - stinky613 7y ago
      I think that would depend on how precisely they need to be calibrated, right? IIRC even military GPS is still only accurate to within a few feet.
      - gonzo41 7y ago
        Survey quality GPS is able to have centimeter accuracy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real-time_kinematic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real-time_kinematic
        mlyle 7y ago
        But centimeter accuracy is of limited value. It doesn't tell you how the mirror base inclination has changed due to subsidence and thermal effects. If every mirror has drifted a small angle, and you're trying to point them all at a very small target-- it's hard.
JustSomeNobody 7y ago
Why is AI even needed? It’s not like the sun dances around. Could probably find enough information here [0] what is needed. [0] Practical Astronomy with your Calculator https://www.amazon.com/dp/0521356997/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_-vmeEb373HATZ https://www.amazon.com/dp/0521356997/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_-v...
- function_seven 7y ago
  The sun might not, but everything else does. The struts supporting these things change with the temperature, the ground swells or settles, the tower may move a bit, etc. Also, once the AI is written, you can save time on each install by not having to precisely locate each mirror. Get it close enough, and let the magic box fix up the small errors in real time.
- ben509 7y ago
  For three reasons cited in The Fine Article: > The problem is that in the past concentrated solar couldn't get temperatures hot enough to make cement and steel. > While other concentrated solar companies attacked this temperature problem by adding steel to make the technology stiffer and sturdier, Heliogen and its team of scientists and engineers turned to artificial intelligence. > Heliogen said it is generating so much heat that its technology could eventually be used to create clean hydrogen at scale.

amboo7 7y ago

How does this compare to, for example, https://www.promes.cnrs.fr/index.php?page=concentrateurs-solaires https://www.promes.cnrs.fr/index.php?page=concentrateurs-sol... (3000°C)? I personally visited one such site in Southern France more than 30 years ago.

the8472 7y ago
That's a research/materials testing facility. Heliogen is aiming for industrial applications which means it has to scale more cheaply than a bespoke installation.
- mads 7y ago
  So the breakthrough is really in production methods of the facilities?

solarengineer 7y ago

This was posted on HN before: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21573694 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21573694 Animats gave a nice summary [1] of the Vox article [2] that went into some detail. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21580596 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21580596 [2] https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2019/11/19/20970252/climate-change-solar-heat-heliogen-csp https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2019/11/19/20970252/c...

Waterluvian 7y ago

I fundamentally cannot perceive where AI plays a role. Isn't it just a solvable geometry problem?

splittingTimes 7y ago
"Heliogen uses computer vision software, automatic edge detection and other sophisticated technology to train a field of mirrors to reflect solar beams to one single spot." In principle I think you are right, but that would mean for each plant you build you need the exact position of each mirror, the oven chamber and the motion of the sun through the day and year. I think the "AI" approach scales better, as it is rather simple "AI" application.
- gonzo41 7y ago
  wouldn't just giving all of the mirrors survey quality GPS do the same. you'd be able to then just have them work out the angles as it relates to them and the target. It doesn't really seems like and AI problem.
  - stinky613 7y ago
    I think that would depend on how precisely they need to be calibrated, right? IIRC even military GPS is still only accurate to within a few feet.
    - gonzo41 7y ago
      Survey quality GPS is able to have centimeter accuracy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real-time_kinematic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real-time_kinematic
      - mlyle 7y ago
        But centimeter accuracy is of limited value. It doesn't tell you how the mirror base inclination has changed due to subsidence and thermal effects. If every mirror has drifted a small angle, and you're trying to point them all at a very small target-- it's hard.

JustSomeNobody 7y ago

Why is AI even needed? It’s not like the sun dances around. Could probably find enough information here [0] what is needed. [0] Practical Astronomy with your Calculator https://www.amazon.com/dp/0521356997/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_-vmeEb373HATZ https://www.amazon.com/dp/0521356997/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_-v...

function_seven 7y ago
The sun might not, but everything else does. The struts supporting these things change with the temperature, the ground swells or settles, the tower may move a bit, etc. Also, once the AI is written, you can save time on each install by not having to precisely locate each mirror. Get it close enough, and let the magic box fix up the small errors in real time.
ben509 7y ago
For three reasons cited in The Fine Article: > The problem is that in the past concentrated solar couldn't get temperatures hot enough to make cement and steel. > While other concentrated solar companies attacked this temperature problem by adding steel to make the technology stiffer and sturdier, Heliogen and its team of scientists and engineers turned to artificial intelligence. > Heliogen said it is generating so much heat that its technology could eventually be used to create clean hydrogen at scale.