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> escalation of school shootings Bubble thought. School shootings are down from previous highs and are actually very rare [0]. COVERAGE and willingness to use

> escalation of school shootings Bubble thought. School shootings are down from previous highs and are actually very rare [0]. COVERAGE and willingness to use any incident to promote a very specific narrative are up. [0] https://news.northeastern.edu/2018/02/26/schools-are-still-one-of-the-safest-places-for-children-researcher-says/ https://news.northeastern.edu/2018/02/26/schools-are-still-o...

calcifer 7y ago
"No Way To Prevent This", Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens [0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%27No_Way_To_Prevent_This,%27_Says_Only_Nation_Where_This_Regularly_Happens https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%27No_Way_To_Prevent_This,%27_...
- slothtrop 7y ago
  They've moved the goalpost from this to "the deaths are statistically insignificant".
  - alamaslah 7y ago
    Where did they get that idea from? [1] Amusingly... it was likely their opposition. This is why you should hold yourself and those you align with to high standards. It only stengthens your position...even if you are completely wrong (although only a little bit) [1] https://ourworldindata.org/terrorism https://ourworldindata.org/terrorism
- ancarda 7y ago
  On that thought, is there any way to prevent shootings without making guns harder or impossible for citizens to own? Seems many will not disarm in the US, so should we be exploring other options rather than repeatedly saying the US should be more like other countries?
  - jonny_eh 7y ago
    Is it so bad to make guns as hard to own as a car? Simple licensing would go a long way to reduce the risk of guns. https://www.vox.com/2019/9/11/20861019/gun-solution-background-check-licensing https://www.vox.com/2019/9/11/20861019/gun-solution-backgrou...
    - SlowRobotAhead 7y ago
      > Is it so bad to make guns as hard to own as a car? The ONLY people that say this are the ones that would be (fucking) horrified if we treated guns like cars. Ok. You are proposing I should be able to buy any gun I want whenever I want regardless of size or capacity, automatic, or loud or silenced for cash without any checks or regulations at all? That the only requirement to use it in public is that I need a license - BUT - that carry license is good in all 50 states? ... that sounds good to me! Let’s do it. Yours is an argument based entirely in ignorance of gun laws. And maybe car laws too.
      - jonny_eh 7y ago
        > Ok. You are proposing I should be able to buy any gun I want whenever I want regardless of size or capacity, automatic, or loud or silenced for cash without any checks or regulations at all? What? No.
        etrabroline 7y ago
        But that's how loosely cars are regulated, and you said you wanted guns regulated like cars. I think what you meant to say is to regulate guns much more strictly than cars.
        kortilla 7y ago
        Well that’s how purchasing a car works, so... Maybe you’re confusing purchasing a car with licensing a car?
      - Dylan16807 7y ago
        It's not a tradeoff between manufacturing restrictions and licensing restrictions.
- SlowRobotAhead 7y ago
  Despite the vail of Wikipedia, your source is The Onion. Does the onion’s satirical joke take into account all the places there are no guns but this does still happens? Paris France, and Norway, have both had worse mass and school shootings than any in the USA ever.
  - icebraining 7y ago
    Which school shootings in France and Norway have been worse than any in the USA?
    - SlowRobotAhead 7y ago
      Paris was the mass shooting I was referencing. 184 dead irrc. Norway, School summer camp in 2011. I suppose it’s not exactly what you think of when you think of skin shooting inside a school building, but the people killed were almost exclusively children. Perpetrator use a rifle that has not been legal in Norway for civilians.
      - icebraining 7y ago
        It wasn't a school summer camp - it was organized by a left-wing political party - and most of the people killed were adults. He used a Ruger Mini-14 and a Glock pistol for which he had a legal license as a civilian (for hunting and sport shooting respectively), purchased in Norway - the country with the second highest legal gun ownership rate in the EU - after he failed to illegally acquire guns in Prague.
        SlowRobotAhead 7y ago
        > He used a Ruger Mini-14 and a Glock pistol for which he had a legal license as a civilian You have a source for that? I understood neither of those guns are to be civilian legal. Also... to the topic. If Norway’s extremely strict (draconian) gun laws didn’t prevent this shooting which was worse than any in US history; why would US benefit from them?
dmos62 7y ago
This one also surprised me. Are school shootings up? Or is the media peddling violent news more aggressively?
- ianleeclark 7y ago
  There's a weird thing that happens here with language: school shootings mean multiple things. So, if someone is shot at a school at an after-hours drug deal gone awry, that counts just as much as parkland, even though there is a very distinguishable difference between the two.
  - SlowRobotAhead 7y ago
    That’s exactly what the lists of “4375 school shootings this year!” are actually made of. Someone in New Jersey shot a rat 2 blocks from a school - school shooting. Drive by between rival gangs near a college - school shooting. Resource officer discharges his gun in his car - school shooting.
    - ianleeclark 7y ago
      Well, they're comprised of that, and, y'know, children being murdered in mass.
      - SlowRobotAhead 7y ago
        I agree that’s bad. I think the only thing worse than lying about incidents to improve your statistics, is ignoring reality in arguing for policies and regulations that further instead of solve the problem.
      - Dylan16807 7y ago
        Those should not be put in the same category.
      - kortilla 7y ago
        So don’t you think it’s disingenuous to group them together? Or is it just too convenient to pass up for those looking for anti-gun talking points?
chalupa-man 7y ago
Your source doesn't say school shootings are down from previous highs nor that they're very rare; it specifically only deals with shootings where _4 or more students were killed_ excluding the shooter. That's a very different things from "school shootings", where the mean number of fatalities is 3. If you define "school shooting" as "people being shot at school", then use the same data as in your source, you see 247 people shot in 64 incidents during the 2000s, and 555 people shot in 213 incidents during the 2010s. (It's worth noting that Fridel & Fox came under some scrutiny for choosing their definition of school shooting, because the standard definition used--by the FBI, the Bureau of Justice Statistics, and by Fox himself in previous studies that conflicted with his new one--is four people _shot_. ) What we're seeing is a large increasing in the number of school shootings, but a decrease in the average success of each school shooter. Is it surprising that the average shooter has become less effective when schools are spending a lot of time and money preparing to deal with them? Shooter drills, established lockdown procedures, buildings being designed with escape and hiding in mind[0], staff training, employment of security guards, etc. The data you're citing states it plainly: there are more shootings at schools now than 10 or 20 years ago, and more people are being shot at school than 10 or 20 years ago. 50 people killing 3 kids each isn't somehow safer than 25 people killing 4 kids each. [0] https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2019/08/22/new-high-school-will-have-sleek-classrooms-places-hide-mass-shooter/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2019/08/22/new-high...
- Dylan16807 7y ago
  Hang on. If you're counting things where only one or two people are shot, there is very often no intent to shoot more than that. You can't use that data point by itself to talk about the "success" of school shooters. And those smaller incidents are definitely not what I think of when I hear the words "school shooting". > 50 people killing 3 kids each isn't somehow safer than 25 people killing 4 kids each. But you have to treat people killing 2 kids in a completely different way from people that are killing 20. Drills, lockdown procedures, almost all gun limitations... those don't do anything against a single murder.
throwaway1777 7y ago
I don’t think this should be downvoted. The facts are the facts. It’s also the case that even 1 shooting is a tragedy and should give us pause for how we can fix it (whether that is gun control or something else).

calcifer 7y ago

"No Way To Prevent This", Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens [0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%27No_Way_To_Prevent_This,%27_Says_Only_Nation_Where_This_Regularly_Happens https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%27No_Way_To_Prevent_This,%27_...

slothtrop 7y ago
They've moved the goalpost from this to "the deaths are statistically insignificant".
- alamaslah 7y ago
  Where did they get that idea from? [1] Amusingly... it was likely their opposition. This is why you should hold yourself and those you align with to high standards. It only stengthens your position...even if you are completely wrong (although only a little bit) [1] https://ourworldindata.org/terrorism https://ourworldindata.org/terrorism
ancarda 7y ago
On that thought, is there any way to prevent shootings without making guns harder or impossible for citizens to own? Seems many will not disarm in the US, so should we be exploring other options rather than repeatedly saying the US should be more like other countries?
- jonny_eh 7y ago
  Is it so bad to make guns as hard to own as a car? Simple licensing would go a long way to reduce the risk of guns. https://www.vox.com/2019/9/11/20861019/gun-solution-background-check-licensing https://www.vox.com/2019/9/11/20861019/gun-solution-backgrou...
  - SlowRobotAhead 7y ago
    > Is it so bad to make guns as hard to own as a car? The ONLY people that say this are the ones that would be (fucking) horrified if we treated guns like cars. Ok. You are proposing I should be able to buy any gun I want whenever I want regardless of size or capacity, automatic, or loud or silenced for cash without any checks or regulations at all? That the only requirement to use it in public is that I need a license - BUT - that carry license is good in all 50 states? ... that sounds good to me! Let’s do it. Yours is an argument based entirely in ignorance of gun laws. And maybe car laws too.
    - jonny_eh 7y ago
      > Ok. You are proposing I should be able to buy any gun I want whenever I want regardless of size or capacity, automatic, or loud or silenced for cash without any checks or regulations at all? What? No.
      - etrabroline 7y ago
        But that's how loosely cars are regulated, and you said you wanted guns regulated like cars. I think what you meant to say is to regulate guns much more strictly than cars.
      - kortilla 7y ago
        Well that’s how purchasing a car works, so... Maybe you’re confusing purchasing a car with licensing a car?
    - Dylan16807 7y ago
      It's not a tradeoff between manufacturing restrictions and licensing restrictions.
SlowRobotAhead 7y ago
Despite the vail of Wikipedia, your source is The Onion. Does the onion’s satirical joke take into account all the places there are no guns but this does still happens? Paris France, and Norway, have both had worse mass and school shootings than any in the USA ever.
- icebraining 7y ago
  Which school shootings in France and Norway have been worse than any in the USA?
  - SlowRobotAhead 7y ago
    Paris was the mass shooting I was referencing. 184 dead irrc. Norway, School summer camp in 2011. I suppose it’s not exactly what you think of when you think of skin shooting inside a school building, but the people killed were almost exclusively children. Perpetrator use a rifle that has not been legal in Norway for civilians.
    - icebraining 7y ago
      It wasn't a school summer camp - it was organized by a left-wing political party - and most of the people killed were adults. He used a Ruger Mini-14 and a Glock pistol for which he had a legal license as a civilian (for hunting and sport shooting respectively), purchased in Norway - the country with the second highest legal gun ownership rate in the EU - after he failed to illegally acquire guns in Prague.
      - SlowRobotAhead 7y ago
        > He used a Ruger Mini-14 and a Glock pistol for which he had a legal license as a civilian You have a source for that? I understood neither of those guns are to be civilian legal. Also... to the topic. If Norway’s extremely strict (draconian) gun laws didn’t prevent this shooting which was worse than any in US history; why would US benefit from them?

dmos62 7y ago

This one also surprised me. Are school shootings up? Or is the media peddling violent news more aggressively?

ianleeclark 7y ago
There's a weird thing that happens here with language: school shootings mean multiple things. So, if someone is shot at a school at an after-hours drug deal gone awry, that counts just as much as parkland, even though there is a very distinguishable difference between the two.
- SlowRobotAhead 7y ago
  That’s exactly what the lists of “4375 school shootings this year!” are actually made of. Someone in New Jersey shot a rat 2 blocks from a school - school shooting. Drive by between rival gangs near a college - school shooting. Resource officer discharges his gun in his car - school shooting.
  - ianleeclark 7y ago
    Well, they're comprised of that, and, y'know, children being murdered in mass.
    - SlowRobotAhead 7y ago
      I agree that’s bad. I think the only thing worse than lying about incidents to improve your statistics, is ignoring reality in arguing for policies and regulations that further instead of solve the problem.
    - Dylan16807 7y ago
      Those should not be put in the same category.
    - kortilla 7y ago
      So don’t you think it’s disingenuous to group them together? Or is it just too convenient to pass up for those looking for anti-gun talking points?

chalupa-man 7y ago

Your source doesn't say school shootings are down from previous highs nor that they're very rare; it specifically only deals with shootings where _4 or more students were killed_ excluding the shooter. That's a very different things from "school shootings", where the mean number of fatalities is 3. If you define "school shooting" as "people being shot at school", then use the same data as in your source, you see 247 people shot in 64 incidents during the 2000s, and 555 people shot in 213 incidents during the 2010s. (It's worth noting that Fridel & Fox came under some scrutiny for choosing their definition of school shooting, because the standard definition used--by the FBI, the Bureau of Justice Statistics, and by Fox himself in previous studies that conflicted with his new one--is four people _shot_. ) What we're seeing is a large increasing in the number of school shootings, but a decrease in the average success of each school shooter. Is it surprising that the average shooter has become less effective when schools are spending a lot of time and money preparing to deal with them? Shooter drills, established lockdown procedures, buildings being designed with escape and hiding in mind[0], staff training, employment of security guards, etc. The data you're citing states it plainly: there are more shootings at schools now than 10 or 20 years ago, and more people are being shot at school than 10 or 20 years ago. 50 people killing 3 kids each isn't somehow safer than 25 people killing 4 kids each. [0] https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2019/08/22/new-high-school-will-have-sleek-classrooms-places-hide-mass-shooter/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2019/08/22/new-high...

Dylan16807 7y ago
Hang on. If you're counting things where only one or two people are shot, there is very often no intent to shoot more than that. You can't use that data point by itself to talk about the "success" of school shooters. And those smaller incidents are definitely not what I think of when I hear the words "school shooting". > 50 people killing 3 kids each isn't somehow safer than 25 people killing 4 kids each. But you have to treat people killing 2 kids in a completely different way from people that are killing 20. Drills, lockdown procedures, almost all gun limitations... those don't do anything against a single murder.

throwaway1777 7y ago

I don’t think this should be downvoted. The facts are the facts. It’s also the case that even 1 shooting is a tragedy and should give us pause for how we can fix it (whether that is gun control or something else).