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How strong is your knot?
- RappingBoomer 7y agoi really need to know
- tick_tock_tick 7y agoI'd love them to do a break down on common knots as I trust my life to figure 8s and fisherman knots pretty regularly.
- celim307 7y agoget into alpining and trad multipitch. Best way to learn a ton of knots, rope systems, and cool tricks!
- kansface 7y agoYeah, me too, but I have never read of an actual knot failure causing an accident outside of user error (wrong knot, not tied correctly, incorrect application, etc). edit: in reference to rock climbing accidents...
- dgacmu 7y agoLook for older reports from rec.climbing. For example: http://canyoncollective.com/threads/some-knot-testing-data.7688/ http://canyoncollective.com/threads/some-knot-testing-data.7... And https://user.xmission.com/~tmoyer/testing/EDK.html https://user.xmission.com/~tmoyer/testing/EDK.html Some of the testing folks at black diamond did a bunch of tests when we were all jabbering about knot safety about 20 years ago. Kinda sad the old posts are getting so hard to find!
- kragen 7y agoWe need a search engine focused on organizing the world's information and making it accessible and useful, instead of advertising.
- wrycoder 7y agoThere are two basic classes: knots on slippery material like monofilament and knots on ordinary stranded or braided line. Fishermen have worked out good knots for monofilament, but they jam when used with stranded line. The strength of a knot or bend in stranded line can be predicted without technical analysis by looking at the curvature of the line as it passes through the knot. The tighter the curve, the lower the breaking strength. The strongest bends, like the Zeppelin, have very soft, symmetrical curves. They are also the easiest to untie.
- dzhiurgis 7y agoPracticality is also big one. There are tons, but I've learned bowline over 10 years ago and use it every day when sailing. It's easy to tie and can be taken apart by hands.
- peterwwillis 7y agoThe bowline is fine for non-safety-critical uses, but cyclical loading causes it to slip, so I'd suggest anyone who's learning the bowline to learn a "safer" variant and just always use that one (examples are Yosemite Bowline, End Bound Single Bowline, Double Bowline, Bowline on a Bight).
- slowhand09 7y agoBeen using bowlines for safety(fire dept) and sailing 35yrs. Never ever ever seen a proper bowline "shake loose". Can tie it weakside one-handed, upside down, behind my back, in the dark, underwater, while brushing my teeth.
- JshWright 7y agoYou use a bowline for life-safety in rescue operations? That's really unusual, in my experience (firefighter/rescue tech in upstate New York)
- brndr 7y agoI volunteer for a lifesaving organization in Germany and the bowline is one of the most important knots there. One example is diving, where the diver is secured by a bowline around his hip.
- JshWright 7y agoInteresting... Around here if divers are working off a line, they're tagged in with a short lead to the mainline. The lead will have carabiners on either end that are either factory stitched in place, or clipped into a figure-eight. Those aren't meant to be under any tension though, they're just for maintaining orientation. If a diver is attached to an actual haul line (not common, but happens in swift-water recuse scenarios), then they're going to be clipped in via a carabiner, which is tied on with a double-loop figure-eight. The double-loop figure-eight is the standard "if your life is gonna depend on it" knot around here. (I am not a rescue diver, but do support dive operations from time to time)
- nordsieck 7y agoIMO, the 2 most useful knots I know (aside from the shoelace knot) are the Carrick Bend and the Bowline. The Carrick bend is especially useful - it's basically a square knot that doesn't come undone on its own.
- recursive 7y agoI'd put in a vote for the sheet bend, although it's kind of isomorphic to the bowline. The "free" ends are in different places, and it's a joining knot.
- emmelaich 7y agoThe bowline is rather special as it * doesn't tighten the big loop when you pull on it. * it can be done with one hand (with lots of practice!) I wonder how strong the bowline is compared to the others though.
- nwallin 7y agoWhen I was in boy scouts, at one of the camps one year one of the people running the thing had this little game. The idea was that two people would each tie a bowline around their waist, and connect the two ropes with a square knot. Then do it as fast as you could. Two of the kids in my troop got it down to two and a half seconds. It looked like one of those magic tricks where you flip a rope around and it knotted itself. I did eventually learn the one handed bowline, but it still takes me twenty seconds to do either that or a basic square knot.
- JshWright 7y agoMy vote for most useful knot is the figure-8. Can be used to secure something to a fixed anchor, as a bend, or to put a loop in the middle of a line (something like an Alpine Butterfly is a better option there, but if you only know the figure-8, it will get the job done).
- throw7 7y agoThe zeppelin has always been my favorite "knot" (the zeppelin is a bend), but one knot is not the "best"... the alpine butterfly they compare it with is a loop. They're used in different contexts. I'm just knot layman, but other knots I like are: the icicle hitch, bowline (+yosemite stopper), trucker's hitch, siberian/evenk/halter hitch, tumble hitch, and the chinese button knot.
- JshWright 7y agoA Trucker's Hitch is a _super_ useful thing to be able to rig. There are dozens of ways to tie it, and just as many situations where it is useful.
- wrycoder 7y agoThe knot I use most frequently is the taut-line hitch. This is an adjustable loop knot that holds its position under tension. It works well with the trucker's hitch or to set up tents and other temporary tension rigging. For joining two lines, I like the Zeppelin hitch.
- Balgair 7y agoTHANK YOU! The Zeppelin bend is my favorite knot, simply due to the name. A useful, if relatively unknown knot, is Ashely's Stopper Knot, great for the little strings that go into hoodies. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashley%27s_stopper_knot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashley%27s_stopper_knot
- WilTimSon 7y agoI'm somewhat fascinated by people's ability to tie knots that are more complicated than the basic shoelace one. I've watched hundreds of videos on knot-tying and, even with basic step-by-step instructions, can't manage one properly. Is it just the fact that this stuff is better taught practically or am I just somehow the worst knot-tier of all? Even that reef knot gif eludes me...
- dragontamer 7y ago> I'm somewhat fascinated by people's ability to tie knots that are more complicated than the basic shoelace one. > Even that reef knot gif eludes me -------- These statements are in contradiction. The reef knot IS your shoelace knot. If you can tie your shoelaces, you can tie a reef knot, by definition. Specifically, a "shoelace tie" is the slipped reef knot. "Slipped" means that you leave little loops so that its easier to untie later. Get rid of the "loops" in your shoelace tie, and you'll make a fine (more permanent) reef knot.
- emmelaich 7y agoI think many use the granny for their shoes.
- ldiracdelta 7y agoShame on them.
- mrob 7y agoI prefer the granny knot because it rotates the shoelaces so they're less likely to get caught on things. I've never had any trouble with it coming untied. https://www.fieggen.com/shoelace/grannyknot.htm https://www.fieggen.com/shoelace/grannyknot.htm discusses the difference in detail, but fails to acknowledge this benefit of granny knots.
- foobar1962 7y agoOr wear slip-ons.
- dragontamer 7y agoMy list of favorite knots: 1. Square Knot / Reef Knot -- This is the shoelace tie, and its one of the simplest knots. Learn this knot backwards and forwards you'll use it a lot. Avoid the granny knot (a mistaken reef knot). Beginners will often tie the granny knot instead of the square knot. If you can do a square knot, the "Surgeon Knot" is a useful variant which is more secure. 2. Figure Eight -- Superior to the overhand knot in almost every way imaginable. Never use an overhand knot, always use figure eight instead. 3. Bowline Loop / Sheet Bend -- When a loop must be sturdy and unmoving, the bowline is one of the best. The Sheet Bend is nearly the same, except you tie two different ropes together. I keep a bowline loop on any "pocket twine" because making a bowline loop is the start of many advanced knots. Such as... 4. Package Tie -- Presents obviously look nicer with a ribbon in package tie form, but any large, box-ish object can be secured with the package tie. Really good for lunchboxes / bags in daily usage. Add another Bowline loop on the end for a convenient handle. https://www.animatedknots.com/package-tying-knot https://www.animatedknots.com/package-tying-knot 5. Cable Lacing -- When working with wires and electronics, the cable-lacing knots are great for organizing wires. Its quick to tie and organize, and looks great. https://www.flight-mechanic.com/lacing-tying-and-cutting-wire-bundles/ https://www.flight-mechanic.com/lacing-tying-and-cutting-wir... 6. Poacher's Noose -- When a loop needs to "collapse" to bind objects together, various nooses come in handy. Poacher's noose is my favorite, ties easily and fewer people recognize it compared to the hangman's noose. Both nooses have political implications however so be wary of who is watching you when you tie a noose. 7. Butterfly coil -- When storing most paracord, twine, or ropes... butterfly coil is fast and effective storage. 8. Over-under coil -- Wrapping up thicker wires / cables (especially electronic cables / wires, but also garden hoses) is best with over-under coil instead of butterfly coil. 9. Half-hitch -- Its the knot you've been using all the time, and you probably don't even realize it. Its called a "half-hitch", because you need two of them to actually make it secure. Two-half hitches solves many problems.
- dilyevsky 7y ago2. False. (Double) overhand aka euro death knot is superior for joining two ends of rappel line due to its smaller profile - lower probably of getting jammed on pull
- japhyr 7y agoMy favorite, as many others are sharing here, is the figure 8. For climbing, it's a super versatile knot and there's lots of variations for specific use cases. It's also a great knot for discussing the properties of a good knot. I also have found the trucker's hitch really useful from time to time. It allows you to tie down a load, for example a kayak on top of a car. You tie the initial hitch, and then you get to crank down on the hitch before tying the final knot. It's like a mini pulley system without a pulley. The knot I use every day is a modified shoelace knot. You do an overhand, and then the first loop. Before you make the second loop though, you make two wraps around the first loop instead of just one [0]. Once I started using that knot, I don't think I ever had a shoelace come undone. [0] Third video here, "Two Loop Shoelace Knot": https://www.sunnysports.com/blog/3-best-knots-tying-shoelaces-stay-tied/ https://www.sunnysports.com/blog/3-best-knots-tying-shoelace...
- dgzl 7y agoAs for climbing, don't forget the double-fisherman's... To tie two ropes together for a double-rope rappel. It's the knot equivalent of a wrist-handshake.
- mdtusz 7y agoYou should use an EDK (despite the name sounding scary) if you're anywhere with cracks or areas that a double fisherman's will get caught. The EDK is asymmetric so it's less likely to get stuck, and is generally faster to tie (and untie). Fears of it rolling out are a bit overstated - just leave a solid 6 inches of tail or more.
- SAI_Peregrinus 7y agoOr just use the Alpine Butterfly. Stronger, easy to tie, optionally asymmetric, usable as a loop or a bend, quite secure (slightly less so than Ashley's #1452 but still quite good), and non-jamming (unlike the figure 8).
- fingerlocks 7y ago
- IgorPartola 7y agoIf you want a fun one, look up Somerville Bowline. Great take on a bowline that is non-directional, non-collapsing, very hard to get wrong, small, quick to tie, and cannot be undone under tension. Oh and it’s completely symmetrical so you can pull on either end.
- wrycoder 7y agoFun, heh. It does look like it would have a tendency to jam and be hard to untie. One of the key points of a good knot is that it be easily untied once the strain has been removed.
- IgorPartola 7y agoDepends on the load of course, but in my experience having tied it a lot, it only jammed up once, taking an extra thirty seconds to undo. This was when I put about 200 lb on it and swung around a bunch. Jute rope also has a ton of friction, synthetic being smoother would be even less likely to jam.
- wrycoder 7y agoIt's an interesting and decorative knot - I've not seen anything like it before. I'll have to give it a try. I'm trying to think of another quality bight knot that can be tied with the object in place. Not the bowline, not the butterfly.
- IgorPartola 7y agoIf you want another one, check out the WykD Fast Bowline. It can be tied as both a regular version and a quick release. It is even simpler but has less symmetry. Interestingly, the quick release is more structurally sound with this one. There is also a variant of the Somerville where the loop is made backwards, which seems to go by Struggler’s knot. It purports to be nearly as strong, and supposedly can be tied with one hand. Also, there is a method of tying the Somerville called the reverse Somerville. It’s the same knot but tied inline rather than with the bight. The downside to the Somerville is that you generally can’t get it really tight around the object. A variant of it exists which allows you to do so at the cost of a bulkier knot: before making the loop, cross the bight over all the rope, go under it and come back to where it just was, similar to how you would start a reef knot. I have used that technique before with some success but not enough to recommend it beyond messing around.
- saagarjha 7y agoCan we get the link replaced with an HTTPS one (https://news.mit.edu/2020/model-how-strong-knot-0102 https://news.mit.edu/2020/model-how-strong-knot-0102)?
- war1025 7y agoObligatory link to this handy reference of different knots and how to tie them: https://www.netknots.com/rope_knots https://www.netknots.com/rope_knots
- elteto 7y agoThis is also a very popular knot reference, although limited to shoelaces: https://www.fieggen.com/shoelace/index.htm https://www.fieggen.com/shoelace/index.htm
- blacksmith_tb 7y agoI am surprised to see no one has put in a good word here for the buntline hitch[1], which is very handy for tying a rope to something fixed (and also happens to be a standard necktie knot). 1: https://www.animatedknots.com/buntline-hitch-knot https://www.animatedknots.com/buntline-hitch-knot
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- kajecounterhack 7y agoFor standard knots the Klutz book of knots is really excellent! https://www.amazon.com/Klutz-Book-Knots-John-Cassidy/dp/0932592104/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr= https://www.amazon.com/Klutz-Book-Knots-John-Cassidy/dp/0932... The article doesn't mention fishing knots; in case anyone's curious anglers care a lot about knot strength but strength changes based on whether you lubricated the knot when tying and what kind of line you used to tie it (braid vs smooth fluorocarbon for example). My favorite fishing knot is the uni knot, which is a slip knot that can be used to join lines (double uni) or tie things to line. It's super strong but fishing knots aren't designed to be untied and always cinch down (vs climbing knots which can't collapse / strangle a person). Slipknots are very useful: I use a 3-wrap uni when I'm trussing thankgiving fowl for the oven! There are some really cool fishing knot strength testing videos on YouTube. The line-to-line joining knots are my favorites -- people get heated debating the merits of the FG knot vs the alberto vs the double uni.
- cloudkj 7y agoIndeed. Fishing knot strength is always a hot topic of debate, particularly during the slower, off-season winter months when everyone's hunkering down and doing tackle maintenance. Here's a pretty good breakdown of the line breaking strength of various fishing knots across monofilament, fluorocarbon, and braided line: https://www.knotsforfishing.com/knot-strength-chart/ https://www.knotsforfishing.com/knot-strength-chart/ I personally prefer the Palomar Knot as it is probably the strongest knot that is also easy to tie. The Improved Clinch Knot and its brethren are also handy to know since there are so many variants that have high breaking strength; I typically teach the Improved Clinch Knot to folks new to fishing.
- kajecounterhack 7y agoI love the palomar too! The only issue with it is that it makes tying pretied leaders tricky since you have to pull the whole terminal end through the loop. Not as versatile as some other knots. I find it surprising how many people use clinch knots vs the uni in real life. It's certainly easier to tie clinch knots but I've never found the ease worth it, since the uni is so much stronger and can be used for more things. Once I got fast at uni the clinch knots went out the window.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- alister 7y agoI have a knot problem that I think pretty much everyone has encountered. How do you tie a bundle of branches or a cardboard box or something compressible as tightly as possible? The first way everyone tries is to cross the rope like you would for shoelaces, then putting pressure on the crossed rope with your finger, and trying to cross the ends of the rope with your one free hand to finish the knot. Inevitably the knot is way too loose. Surely there must be a better way? EDIT: the word "ratcheting" nicely conveys the idea I was looking for.
- robgibbons 7y agoI would have said the trucker's hitch, but there are other "ratcheting" knots that would work well in this scenario. https://goneoutdoors.com/rope-knots-give-ratcheting-effects-8099774.html https://goneoutdoors.com/rope-knots-give-ratcheting-effects-...
- knot_knots 7y agoI would use a trucker's hitch, personally. Instructions: https://www.animatedknots.com/truckers-hitch-knot https://www.animatedknots.com/truckers-hitch-knot Unrelated music video about it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUHgGK-tImY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUHgGK-tImY
- duelingjello 7y agoA constrictor knot like a boa knot. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boa_knot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boa_knot
- Intermernet 7y agoIf you tie an alpine butterfly somewhere in the rope, and then pass the other end through it, you can achieve a 2:1 pulley system in the rope. This greatly increases the compression of the lashing. Hard to explain, but you're basically using a fixed loop in the line as a pulley to increase the force applied.
- woofie11 7y agoYou can do the same thing going around twice. It's simpler, and gives the same mechanical advantage.
- Strelok_AI 7y agoand? Wheres the research data and test results? or are we just supposed to take you at your word?
- begemotz 7y agothe news release does mention that the research was published in Science. I agree that it wouldn't have taken much to add a link, but here; https://science.sciencemag.org/content/367/6473/71 https://science.sciencemag.org/content/367/6473/71
- duelingjello 7y agoI’m curious what this would look like tying dress shoes with a Berluti knot.[0] (I don’t think this knot is in the ABOK, but I could be wrong.[1]) 0. https://www.hangerproject.com/blog/2018/01/12/berluti-knot-tutorial/ https://www.hangerproject.com/blog/2018/01/12/berluti-knot-t... 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ashley_Book_of_Knots https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ashley_Book_of_Knots
- war1025 7y agoI've tied my shoes very similar to that for many years. The only difference is I only pull the bunny ears through the hole. Not the lace ends. https://www.fieggen.com/shoelace/secureknot.htm https://www.fieggen.com/shoelace/secureknot.htm
- throwawayknots 7y agoStrong enough to hang myself from the ceiling for... entertainment purposes. SCNR.
- trollied 7y agoI like things like this appearing on HN, it brings all of the HN climbers out of the woodwork :)
- 11235813213455 7y agoknots are beautiful, useful. Just note that a knot creates a weakness, in some specific cases, if you need weight and resistance gain, a rope splicing is much better
- egberts1 7y agoMy favorite knot which continues to confound MIT to this day is called the Gordian Knot.
- mikorym 7y agoDoes anyone know what the best knot is for stitching?
- sethammons 7y ago"can't tie a knot? Tie a lot!" I should learn more knots, but I so seldom need any. I look it up, generally get confused by the diagram, eventually work through it, and then forget it. I joined two pieces of rope last year and secured one tarp. I've tied up laces on my shoes a few times last year too.
- dekhn 7y agoi've always thought it woudl be interesting to do large-scale simulations of knots using a physics engine- generate random topologies, pull both ends, compute some physical parameters such as "force required to pull apart". Then sort of walk around knotspace using genetic algorithms to evolve new knots. THere is probably a much more practical RL approach that doesn't require GA>
- Balgair 7y agoKnots aren't super difficult to 'program' in the first place. The first computers were for looms and their weft patterns, after all. It's always been strange to me that no one has decided to set up the math of knots. Most knots are just subtle changes to the same basic elements (bite, over/under, loops, etc). I'd figured there are enough Eagle scouts with PhDs in math to have done this already, but no.
- begemotz 7y agolink to the Science article: https://science.sciencemag.org/content/367/6473/71 https://science.sciencemag.org/content/367/6473/71
- heyflyguy 7y agoWhen I was in the 8th grade we were rappelling from an abandoned railroad trestle using some scavenged rope we found. While tying knots and having our own Indiana Jones adventure, a farmer came along and said we were trespassing but more importantly were tying our ropes incorrectly - that "more people die from square knots than any other kind of knot each year". While I figure this is some passed down knowledge, i have always wondered if this was semi-true. Square knots are terrible.
- Balgair 7y agoJust a plug for Clifford Ashley, the god-father of knots and their tying. His book has some of my favorite knots in it and is a joy to have received as a gift when I was younger. His stopper knot is a pretty cool one. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ashley_Book_of_Knots https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ashley_Book_of_Knots
- blacksmith_tb 7y agoABOK is a wonderful book, but I wouldn't recommend it to someone who just wants to learn a few more knots - books by Geoffrey Budworth or Des Pawson are much clearer in terms of how to tie (though far less encyclopedic than Ashley).
- ben7799 7y agoI was highly disappointed.. this article had so much potential. Really it's great but it was such a let down to only see an animation of one knot with their special cord in the article.. I was really hoping to see animations/gifs of a bunch of interesting knots!
- stillbourne 7y agoknot very strong at all