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I was talking to a few people in a slack channel the other day about the potential market for a whole set of "dumb" appliances. At the end of the day, we came t

I was talking to a few people in a slack channel the other day about the potential market for a whole set of "dumb" appliances. At the end of the day, we came to the conclusion that it wouldn't be a able to reach mass market because the mass consumers seem to care more about price than security.

zzo38computer 7y ago
Well, I would be interested. Also, I don't like HDMI, and I don't need such a big TV set. For TV and VCR and some stuff like that, if it uses computer system (many kind of appliances should not need any kind of computer code), having the rights provided by GPL3, and also wired IMIDI (and perhaps also IMIDI-over-IR, with a switch to disable IR entirely). And, the software should be simpler and not so slow, not so much fancy animation or otherwise bad UI (e.g. requiring you to push the arrows to select an option, even if just one button (such as a number) should do) either!
- RandomBacon 7y ago
  Would it be possible to build an adapter that could filter out Ethernet-over-HDMI?
  - crooked-v 7y ago
    There are basically zero consumer devices right now that actually support that functionality. It's not useful as a selling feature when TVs all have wifi now anyway.
drusepth 7y ago
If you could get the price down to a comparable point, you might be able to market against the price-vs-security crowd, but I think you'd find yourself up against another large percentage of consumers that care more about features than security, which seems a lot harder to compete with when you're pitting dumb devices against smart devices.
- joeblau 7y ago
  Yeah, this is pretty much what a few people brought up. Consumers seem to actively want to give their data away for "features" which usually aren't worth the data they are giving up.
  - drusepth 7y ago
    1) I'm one of the consumers that often actively want to give my data away for "features" that I think are worth the data I'm giving up. 2) I've seen enough comments on HN with the opposite (valid) mindset to think there's a nonzero audience of people that are also willing to pay for privacy over features. Both groups of people seem to feel the other group is wrong and seem biased to think the world would be a better place if everyone in the other group converted to their own, but if you promote privacy over features there's definitely a market out there for you. :)
Kaibeezy 7y ago
Make cars too, please. Manual transmission (actual stick and clutch, not silly paddles), minimal ECUs, disableable seatbelt chime, cigar lighter, and so forth. You know, less cyber.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- andrewksl 7y ago
  Wouldn’t that make it almost impossible to meet emission regulations? I’m not a fan of how opaque cars have gotten, but I’ll accept some loss of control for cleaner air.
  - Scoundreller 7y ago
    Automatics are still too dumb to keep the clutch engaged while braking. Officially automatics and manuals are a wash for mileage, but I think driving style can make manuals the winner. All that kinetic energy getting dissipated by brakes instead of turning the engine and all of its accessories in autos. I’m quite surprised auto manufacturers haven’t implemented engine braking for émissions, reducing brake wear, and quicker « free » cabin heat in cold conditions.
    - dmurray 7y ago
      Typical automatics have comfortably passed out manuals for mileage on average, some time in the 2010s. Driving style "can" theoretically still make a given manual more efficient, but it requires an unusual attention to mileage by the manual driver and/or an unusually aggressive driver on the automatic.
    - henrikschroder 7y ago
      > but I think driving style can make manuals the winner. Everything you can do, a machine can do better.
      - 7y ago
rolph 7y ago
perhaps a pihole of some sort can be built my major concern is that the digital parts may be connection dependent for function
- saschag 7y ago
  if it has an e-sim and data connection or iot without requiring your wifi or ethernet there is not much you can do i guess... faraday cage? hardware and software hacks?
ellius 7y ago
I'm not sure this is a counterargument, but if a company did this in an open way I could trust, I would buy EVERYTHING from them. Fridge, washer, dryer, dishwasher, televisions, small electronics, cars, whatever. You name it I'd buy it. I don't have enough information to determine how many people are like me, but the profit you could make on me as a customer would be ridiculous. You'd get the kind of platform loyalty that Amazon and Google dream of. I'd probably even be happy to share some personal information with you in a way that I controlled that you could turn around and sell. The sense of autonomy, privacy, and control is that valuable to me.
- TeMPOraL 7y ago
  100% this. I would be another loyal customer buying everything from such a company. I place high value on not fucking over fellow human beings, and I'd happily put the money where my mouth is, but the market seems essentially devoid of ethical companies these days. I'm sure there is many more people like us - perhaps enough to sustain a company. (FWIW, if you extend this past issues of ads and privacy, and into making good products and just selling them for money - I'm not sure how long such a company would last these days. Being ethical means no planned obsolescence, or otherwise churning out new variants of the same thing to keep sales up. It could have a problem with a continued revenue stream - but then again, I'd probably happily pay an extra subscription to an ethical company that cut away all this bullshit, just for the privilege of being able to then buy products from them.)
  - amelius 7y ago
    > Being ethical means no planned obsolescence, or otherwise churning out new variants of the same thing to keep sales up. If you buy "TV as a service" instead of as a product, the effect is basically that the company providing the service will do the opposite of planning for obsolescence. Perhaps this is the kind of company you are looking for?
    - tksb 7y ago
      This is my only argument for "subscription culture" in much better words.
fennecfoxen 7y ago
Be aware that there are existing markets for a whole set of appliances which are very, very "dumb" indeed. Take a look at Lehman's, based out of Ohio Amish country: https://www.lehmans.com/ https://www.lehmans.com/ It's hard to install spyware on something that doesn't run off electricity.

zzo38computer 7y ago

Well, I would be interested. Also, I don't like HDMI, and I don't need such a big TV set. For TV and VCR and some stuff like that, if it uses computer system (many kind of appliances should not need any kind of computer code), having the rights provided by GPL3, and also wired IMIDI (and perhaps also IMIDI-over-IR, with a switch to disable IR entirely). And, the software should be simpler and not so slow, not so much fancy animation or otherwise bad UI (e.g. requiring you to push the arrows to select an option, even if just one button (such as a number) should do) either!

RandomBacon 7y ago
Would it be possible to build an adapter that could filter out Ethernet-over-HDMI?
- crooked-v 7y ago
  There are basically zero consumer devices right now that actually support that functionality. It's not useful as a selling feature when TVs all have wifi now anyway.

drusepth 7y ago

If you could get the price down to a comparable point, you might be able to market against the price-vs-security crowd, but I think you'd find yourself up against another large percentage of consumers that care more about features than security, which seems a lot harder to compete with when you're pitting dumb devices against smart devices.

joeblau 7y ago
Yeah, this is pretty much what a few people brought up. Consumers seem to actively want to give their data away for "features" which usually aren't worth the data they are giving up.
- drusepth 7y ago
  1) I'm one of the consumers that often actively want to give my data away for "features" that I think are worth the data I'm giving up. 2) I've seen enough comments on HN with the opposite (valid) mindset to think there's a nonzero audience of people that are also willing to pay for privacy over features. Both groups of people seem to feel the other group is wrong and seem biased to think the world would be a better place if everyone in the other group converted to their own, but if you promote privacy over features there's definitely a market out there for you. :)

Kaibeezy 7y ago

Make cars too, please. Manual transmission (actual stick and clutch, not silly paddles), minimal ECUs, disableable seatbelt chime, cigar lighter, and so forth. You know, less cyber.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
andrewksl 7y ago
Wouldn’t that make it almost impossible to meet emission regulations? I’m not a fan of how opaque cars have gotten, but I’ll accept some loss of control for cleaner air.
- Scoundreller 7y ago
  Automatics are still too dumb to keep the clutch engaged while braking. Officially automatics and manuals are a wash for mileage, but I think driving style can make manuals the winner. All that kinetic energy getting dissipated by brakes instead of turning the engine and all of its accessories in autos. I’m quite surprised auto manufacturers haven’t implemented engine braking for émissions, reducing brake wear, and quicker « free » cabin heat in cold conditions.
  - dmurray 7y ago
    Typical automatics have comfortably passed out manuals for mileage on average, some time in the 2010s. Driving style "can" theoretically still make a given manual more efficient, but it requires an unusual attention to mileage by the manual driver and/or an unusually aggressive driver on the automatic.
  - henrikschroder 7y ago
    > but I think driving style can make manuals the winner. Everything you can do, a machine can do better.
    - 7y ago

rolph 7y ago

perhaps a pihole of some sort can be built my major concern is that the digital parts may be connection dependent for function

saschag 7y ago
if it has an e-sim and data connection or iot without requiring your wifi or ethernet there is not much you can do i guess... faraday cage? hardware and software hacks?

ellius 7y ago

I'm not sure this is a counterargument, but if a company did this in an open way I could trust, I would buy EVERYTHING from them. Fridge, washer, dryer, dishwasher, televisions, small electronics, cars, whatever. You name it I'd buy it. I don't have enough information to determine how many people are like me, but the profit you could make on me as a customer would be ridiculous. You'd get the kind of platform loyalty that Amazon and Google dream of. I'd probably even be happy to share some personal information with you in a way that I controlled that you could turn around and sell. The sense of autonomy, privacy, and control is that valuable to me.

TeMPOraL 7y ago
100% this. I would be another loyal customer buying everything from such a company. I place high value on not fucking over fellow human beings, and I'd happily put the money where my mouth is, but the market seems essentially devoid of ethical companies these days. I'm sure there is many more people like us - perhaps enough to sustain a company. (FWIW, if you extend this past issues of ads and privacy, and into making good products and just selling them for money - I'm not sure how long such a company would last these days. Being ethical means no planned obsolescence, or otherwise churning out new variants of the same thing to keep sales up. It could have a problem with a continued revenue stream - but then again, I'd probably happily pay an extra subscription to an ethical company that cut away all this bullshit, just for the privilege of being able to then buy products from them.)
- amelius 7y ago
  > Being ethical means no planned obsolescence, or otherwise churning out new variants of the same thing to keep sales up. If you buy "TV as a service" instead of as a product, the effect is basically that the company providing the service will do the opposite of planning for obsolescence. Perhaps this is the kind of company you are looking for?
  - tksb 7y ago
    This is my only argument for "subscription culture" in much better words.

fennecfoxen 7y ago

Be aware that there are existing markets for a whole set of appliances which are very, very "dumb" indeed. Take a look at Lehman's, based out of Ohio Amish country: https://www.lehmans.com/ https://www.lehmans.com/ It's hard to install spyware on something that doesn't run off electricity.