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Turkey unveils first fully domestically-produced car in $3.7B bet on electric
- Too 7y agoCompletely new platform from completely inexperienced vendor, mass produced, with more shiny tech than the major car manufacturers have today combined (lvl 3 AD, augmented reality, V2X, eye tracking, holographic assistant?, etc). All done in 2 years...good luck. No doubt they might get a car out eventually but it wont be the car advertised here and the timeplan is still very optimistic.
- flywithdolp 7y agoI've been traveling in Turkey few months ago. Was extremely impressed by the resources this vast country have and by the wealth its citizens (in Istanbul) used to have. Turkey have healthy infrastructure to develop these kind of industry. I believe that they can afford paying top talents from all over the world to come there and boost this industry
- sinanata 7y agoI believe Elon Musk deserves credit for inspiring people thousands of miles away. -Over 100K guaranteed sales -Free land allocation for 1M m2 -100% tax cut -Massive interest rate cut for financing -2 SUVs and 1 Sedan in 2022 -Concept designs were made by Pininfarina
- charliebrownau 7y agoWhy in 2015-2020 do we not have cars willing to use 100% ethnol locally produced/farmed fuel instead of fossil fuel dug up "petrol" No one in the green/save the planet seems to push for Hemp + Bamboo to replace wood trees 100% ethanol to replace petrol fuel Hemp to replace wood trees for paper Salt Thorium nuclear power to replace coal
- Proven 7y agoThat's a hefty bet with other people's money. Have you ever seen a non-bankrupt billionaire making bets like that? Of course not.
- st1ck 7y agoDevrim was the first one (and had more style to it), but there were only 4 of them produced: http://devrimarabasi.com/galeri/big/siyahbeyaz/siyahbeyazdevrim62.jpg http://devrimarabasi.com/galeri/big/siyahbeyaz/siyahbeyazdev... http://devrimarabasi.com/galeri/big/siyahbeyaz/siyahbeyazdevrim54.jpg http://devrimarabasi.com/galeri/big/siyahbeyaz/siyahbeyazdev...
- mswehli 7y agoHonestly, think they stand a pretty good chance in making it successful, especially considering how good their domestic home appliance capabilities has become. Different things, but atleast the embedded systems/electrical engineering talent is there.
- burakcosk 7y agoI'm from Turkey, this is just a show for always upcoming elections. Best engineers in Turkey already left the ship, and the remaining is looking for a way out
- m00dy 7y agoHey, I'm a Turk left the ship 6 years ago. Turkey has infinite amount of engineer supply. I'm also sure the remaining can handle this.
- duxup 7y ago"Turkey has infinite amount of engineer supply" That seems unlikely.
- ReptileMan 7y ago7000000 country could probably produce more engineering talent than it can utilize. And building everyday cars is somewhat easy compared to the aerospace, weapons, nuclear reactors or big dams/bridges/tunnels - you don't push neither material science nor laws of physics to the limit.
- cosmodisk 7y agoWith all its engineering mighty it can't even produce quality appliances (BEKO) and we are talking about cars here.As someone commented here, it all looks great on paper but as soon as you start making it, you realise it ain't that easy.
- aerovistae 7y ago"Elon Musk did it, so...."
- neogodless 7y agoThere's a lot more information and photos here: https://www.motor1.com/news/390036/turkey-togg-csuv-ev-automobile/ https://www.motor1.com/news/390036/turkey-togg-csuv-ev-autom... > Customers can choose from two different lithium-ion battery setups. The smaller option promises 186 miles while the larger pack should crack 300 miles per charge. > TOGG says the rear-drive model can hit 62 miles per hour in 7.6 seconds. The dual-motor SUV will do the deed in 4.8 seconds.
- redisman 7y agoInteresting to see so many new entrants to the car manufacturing market. I guess internal combustion manufacturing was so dominated by the big boys in US-DE-JP that no one really had the muscle/margins to get into the fight at that point. From what I've gleamed, electric motors are a lot simpler (less moving parts).
- hangonhn 7y agoYeah the smart money has really gone into batteries because that's where all the "secret" sauce is. Induction motors are pretty well known at this point. There are companies working on better motors but the expected ROI is rather low and the expected effect on the car overall is low. Advances in batteries in terms of weight or density would be very dramatic because most electric cars are designed around the battery pack.
- taneq 7y ago> Induction motors are pretty well known at this point. So what about this switched reluctance witchcraft that apparently gives the newer Teslas a significant advantage?
- baybal2 7y agoIt doesn't. Power to weight of ordinary well done motors is approaching 5kw per kilogram, and top tier ones even passed 10. Weight of a motor is not an issue for practical considerations for EVs
- taneq 7y agoSo why do they have a huge Wh/km advantage over rivals such as Porsche? https://www.xautoworld.com/opinion/taycan-201-tesla-range/ https://www.xautoworld.com/opinion/taycan-201-tesla-range/
- baybal2 7y agoLess aggressive regenerative breaking to compensate for cooling deficiency, and less efficient inverter. Tesla being able to "turn off" front motor, and lack of differential probably also adds a little bit to efficiency.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- anonu 7y agoOne of the things that technology enables is lower barriers to entry. In the past, you had to be horizontally integrated to make a car. Even Tesla, to some extent is massively horizontally integrated as they are first movers. Technology enables global supply chains. Electric cars may have fewer moving parts. The result is a "narrower" approach to integration where you can rely on others for important or critical parts. Assuming they can make this car reliable and cheap - the makers only need to focus on marketing and selling to make it successful.
- sho_hn 7y agoEven traditional car makers have a long list of suppliers, for many key components including entire drive trains.
- jbay808 7y agoDid you mean vertically integrated?
- anonu 7y agoYes - sorry - long week! I meant vertically integrated, meaning a car company needs to control their supply chain.
- rolleiflex 7y agoI gotta say this makes a surprising amount of sense. - Turkey is the perfect size for a relatively beefy electric car battery to make through in one charge, effectively removing the range anxiety. - This car will likely be immediately competitive in at least the Turkish market because Turkish taxes are crazy on transport. Gasoline is taxed at ~70%, cars are taxed at 68% (50% + 18% VAT). A domestic car will probably avoid the 50% on purchase and a domestic electric car will entirely avoid taxes on gas. Taxes make this a good deal at almost any price the average Turkish consumer can buy. - With the current very low, out of whack exchange rate (1USD:6TRY) this will also become competitive in at least Southern European markets fairly fast as well. - Since this is government sponsored they can also do a fairly fast rollout of electric charging stations by offering generous incentives. If that doesn’t work, they have the eminent domain hammer, and they will definitely just build it themselves as part of the electric service. - This also avoids the heavy industry required to build ICE cars, which has environmental costs. That cause is becoming popular with the electorate as well, exemplified in the stiff backlash against the country’s first nuclear reactor. - Lastly, Turkey has been building cars for the past 35 years and it’s gotten pretty good at it - many of the entry to mid level marques of European conglomerates are built in Turkish factories. This is an entry into luxury segment, it is not an entry into car manufacturing. That knowledge of being able to build safe and solid European cars already exists in there. If you’ve visited Europe, you likely already ridden a Turkish-made car (taxis) and if you live in Europe, chances are you might own one without knowing. - As a bonus point, I would say the choice of an Italian designer over a Turkish one bodes well for the effort because somebody actually made a level headed, reasoned call on this and not a nationalistic one.
- decafbad 7y agoThe company will build a generic charging infrastructure in return to state support it gets. This way people can see advantages of electric vehicles. We expect a huge impact on fossil fuel dependency.
- latchkey 7y agoI went to Turkey in 2010. Drove about 2500km around the country. One thing that stood out to me was the amount of work going into making really epic stretches of highways. I was driving on 6+ lane highways that were so new, there wasn't even stripes on the roads. It is neat to understand now that they were also building the infrastructure to support these cars.
- mavdi 7y agoI’m old enough to remember the last “first fully homemade Turkish car”. It was named Imza (Turkish for signature). I don’t remember the specifics but it was total flop with some financial fraud in the mix. Hoping for a better result this time.
- AcerbicZero 7y agoSo, they (reportedly) commissioned Pininfarina to do the design work, as a "joint design team" with the TOGG folks, but based on the fit/finish of the interior (and the design choices) it kind of looks like Pininfarina did the actual manufacturing of this concept car. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but it might be a bit early to call this a "fully homemade car".
- decafbad 7y agoFully homemade means money stays at home. No patents or any other licensed technology can be used to stop them.
- jaysonelliot 7y agoI have to say I'm shocked to hear that Pininfarina could have designed something so ungainly, dull, and almost ugly. They're one of the greatest design / coachbuilding companies in automotive history. This just looks like a generic block of soap from a nameless factory. I wonder what happened.
- carokann 7y agoSedan looks pretty cool. Elaborate on how the cars look ungainly,dull and ugly please.
- jacquesm 7y agoThe prototypes were indeed made in Italy.
- puranjay 7y agoAnd Pininfarina itself is owned by an Indian conglomerate!
- anticensor 7y agoMay it be unlike Erke Dönergeci, a fraudulent group that attempted to produce a perpertual motion machine.
- bfieidhbrjr 7y agoWho better to provide innovation and challenge Tesla than an autocratic government and a committee of random companies?
- sinanata 7y agoYou may want to do your own research, not random companies. This gov support model has proven successful with defense companies in TR, they're moving it to the mobility industry for the first time.
- smabie 7y agoI don’t understand what about this car is “homemade.” The headline doesn’t make any sense. And if it does, it’s in a paternalistic (maybe racist?) sort of way.
- smabie 7y ago3.7bn over 13 years? There’s no way that anything will become of this. Of course, that’s not the point. I suspect that exactly one car will ever be made, the car that the despot Erdegon will get to drive in for the cameras.
- adige01can 7y agoThere were companies who are selling the same template with different color plate to the customers and lying about they designed from scratch. It seems Italians did the same. https://www.motor1.com/news/390097/togg-suv-sedan-concept-pininfarina/ https://www.motor1.com/news/390097/togg-suv-sedan-concept-pi...
- dchest 7y agoPininfarina is a famous Italian company that designs cars for manufacturers.
- adige01can 7y agoI know that part, the weird part is they gave Turkish government a predesigned car for another customer.
- OrgNet 7y ago> Erdogan first revealed plans in November 2017 here to launch a car made entirely in Turkey by 2021. Electric cars are much simpler then conventional combustion engine cars... no transmission needed. I'm glad that Elon was not successful in putting a transmission in the Tesla car.
- uyuioi 7y agoIt’s over for combustion engine cars. Bring on electric competition.
- z3ncyberpunk 7y agoI think I'll pass on contributing to Erdogan's genocide funding
- ryuukk_ 7y agoUSA isn't any better
- aphextron 7y agoWhere are they getting the batteries? Electric cars are an extremely simple, mature technology that is decades old. Building one isn't hard. The real trick is high volume production of high capacity lithium ion batteries, and the associated pack technology. This is why the Europeans are still massively behind Japan, Korea, and the US (Tesla) with EVs. They can't get enough cells to manufacture cars in high enough volume to be profitable, because they are simply buying them from LG Chem and Panasonic. If Turkey isn't investing billions into battery production, then the whole endeavor is a pointless prestige project.
- rth 7y agoZorlu Enerji (It's a well known Turkish energy company as well as part of the TOGG) already invested 4.5 billion USD to build up a battery factory together with Chinese GSR Capital. BTW, It is not new, it was some years ago IIRC.
- orenak 7y agohe drove it today on live broadcast: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1Cu4dPNLok https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1Cu4dPNLok
- savrajsingh 7y agoseems surprisingly polished, really curious as to how they pulled this off -- they're making it look easy
- kasabali 7y agoEasy, the prototype has been brought from Italy. Nothing has been made yet in Turkey.
- buboard 7y agoSo what will german / italian companies do if they see that their "china" (manufacturing base) is making its own brand?
- coding123 7y agoI hope one day cars will be the next "tower computer" in that you can buy your motors, shell, seats, OS (and self driving AI), all separately and just put them together. It would be very cool to see companies that just specialize in making different bodies, companies making different frames, but all working with a standardized blueprint. I think the first iteration of THAT would be a huge boon to the economy.
- djsumdog 7y agoOn a tangent: Why hasn't Tata (India) tried to enter the American markets? They're a huge shop (they've got a ton of engineering branches just like GE or LG), and I realize a lot of their car production is tied up domestically or to Africa where their industrial their vehicles are big, but surely they've have to had considered selling cars in Europe/the US? They have a US engineering/consulting presence already and even do large scale government contracts (although they require US citizens for those .. which is .. a weird hybrid when you think about it), but we don't see any of their cars in the US.
- clouddrover 7y agoTata owns Jaguar Land Rover so they're already in the US and Europe.
- oblib 7y agoBy today's standards it's a pretty car. I'm way over the Lamborghini style front end scoops but this has much softer lines compared to most right now and it's nice.