6 ms·

I have a desktop Windows only product that I sell (10s of thousands of clients). It does not have the most eye pleasing UI design but it is very functional and

by FpUser 7y ago

I have a desktop Windows only product that I sell (10s of thousands of clients). It does not have the most eye pleasing UI design but it is very functional and ergonomic. All possible actions are clearly visible and / or discoverable. And every action can be accessed in less clicks then in any of competitor's products. I actually get some praises for it. Still every once in a while I get support email telling me that the product sucks "cause it is ugly". Most of those complaining were Apple users who installed a product using Parallels. One of the emails actually was written by pro UX designer (at least this is who the author claimed to be). This got me curios to find out what is really wrong in my GUI that irritates some users so I asked for short interview on Skype/Phone. We had a discussion. Among the things he showed me the example of light gray text on white background and told me that is very eye pleasing an mine are too contrast. For fuck sake I could not read the example he showed to me without glasses and when I complained he said that the beauty trumps usability/ergonomics. I just bailed out. Maybe he is right but I'll stick to what I believe works.

jiofih 7y ago
> beauty trumps usability/ergonomics. That can not possibly come from a UI designer. Usability is always first, and it’s possible to make it look good while maintaining a11y/usability properties.
- Stratoscope 7y ago
  Oh, it could easily come from some of the UI designers I've worked with in the past who followed modern design fads, especially regarding text: • Contrast is bad and hard on the eyes. The less contrast the better. • Decorative fonts with font-weight: 300 are better than ordinary normal weight fonts designed for readability. • It's better to have a small font with a lot of extra line-height instead of just making the font bigger.
- pathseeker 7y ago
  >Usability is always first There are a lot of UI designers that missed that memo.
Wowfunhappy 7y ago
I mean, it's very possible to create visually appealing UIs that also have lots of contrast. Apple used to do it...
dkersten 7y ago
> Maybe he is right but I'll stick to what I believe works. He’s not. If I can’t use a product, it doesn’t matter how beautiful it is.
slimsag 7y ago
I have had conversations with several "designers", some from FAANG, and all have held the general belief that having strong authority over how the UI looks and getting eye-candy at the cost of usability and ergonomics was 'without doubt the right choice'. In my frank opinion, many designers hold a position of subjective judgement and thrive on the power that comes with that. This is like a developer making arbitrary decisions about a product because they like the technical implementation better. Data, and actual user preference, should always be the key decider. Not some arbitrary rule-decider.
- catalogia 7y ago
  Be careful with data-driven design, you can easily end up fooling yourself into seeing evidence in the metrics for whatever you want to be true, I've seen it happen plenty. Accidental p-hacking by well meaning but misguided "data driven" programmers is not at all uncommon. Furthermore, in my experience the data doesn't necessarily mean what it's believed to mean, with the favored explanation for the data being assumed to be the correct explanation. (e.g. "We want more engagement. This data shows users are staying on this page longer, that's a measure of engagement." It may instead be a measure of your users getting confused, lost, etc.) My point here is that an earnest attempt to be data driven doesn't eliminate the matter of bias. Being cognizant of possible bias when evaluating the data is important, otherwise you'll have a false sense of confidence.
- overgard 7y ago
  The danger with data is it can keep you trapped in a local maxima. Also there's the whole thing with a lot of users seeming to be more and more annoyed with telemetry.
  - andreitp1 7y ago
    THIS. So many people don't realize that true innovation cannot come from existing data.
    - xg15 7y ago
      Maybe, instead of either just declaring what is the "right" way or observing users like some kind of behavioural scientist, we could just go back to, I don't know, asking them.
anoncake 7y ago
Maybe putting engineers in charge of UI design isn't all that bad. We may not be good at making a UI work but at least (trying to) make things work is what we do. With designers, it's hit and miss.
dahart 7y ago
> he said that the beauty trumps usability/ergonomics. I just bailed out. Maybe he is right but I'll stick to what I believe works. I’m with you. Speaking personally, I think he is wrong. My definition of true beauty is both appearance and design. Something that is pretty to look at but not very ergonomic is ultimately not truly beautiful, in my mind. For something to be truly beautiful, it must be both sexy looking and ergonomic (and high quality, etc.). When something cute looking has usability problems, it starts to annoy me, it begins to look cheap and not well thought out, and ironically ultimately ends up looking rather ugly. Once I see bad design, it affects how I feel about the looks. Stuff around my house has ended up in this category. Throw pillows on the bed look great when the bed is made, but they’re not for sleep and they’re always in the way. Ugly. Cute glass jars in the kitchen that I can’t quite fit my hand into because they were made elliptical instead of round to have a low profile and be cute... they seemed like a good idea in the store, but it only takes trying to use them a few times before they really don’t look cute anymore.
- FpUser 7y ago
  I love industrial design. Because it mostly exposes function and quality. Stuff made for home use, sure it is pretty but they can have that plastic for themselves ;)
frank2 7y ago
Did you consider giving the the user some way to configure the text color?
- FpUser 7y ago
  I only make configurable things that MUST be configured. I've long learned that my audience when it comes to handling software for better or worse has the average intelligence approaching that of my cat. Not trying to insult here. Just general observation
  - JosefAssad 7y ago
    I've observed something not too different. I suspect it might be that I and my users are at different levels of zoom with respect to the product. They really don't think about it at all except for when they need to get specific tasks done that the product does well. They are max zoomed out. I necessarily am zoomed in to the entire product, from every lowly line of code all the way up to the aggregate product. I am max zoomed in. This leads to a sense of alienation when I observe the relationship between my users and my product. Sometimes it's simpler to think that I actually don't know my own product, so different is the perspective. Really it's a matter of how much the product occupies in my mind versus theirs; they are using it opportunistically and would prefer to spend as little time as possible thinking about it. Which I suppose is a good argument against over-engineering; for a mass market product, core features beyond the third will only be used by the developers. Anyhow, all that is to say I can understand your comment, and I often think that I'm lucky the emacs developers or GvR don't look over my shoulder when I use their software because they would give their cats Nobel prizes. :)
  - xg15 7y ago
    > Not trying to insult here. Just general observation Sorry, still an insult. But ok. So your users have the intelligence of a cat and are generally really helpless with your software. Then the obvious way forward is to include non-discoverable features, hard-to-read text and extra-confusing mouse gestures...?
    - 7y ago
Aeolun 7y ago
> beauty trumps usability/ergonomics That is just... Why is this person a designer if they don’t want to design? They should have become a painter or a musician.
sogen 7y ago
What software?
r_singh 7y ago
> beauty trumps usability/ergonomics I bet that beauty wouldn't have trumped usability (in terms of Apple's preference and an elite buyer's purchase decision) if it also wasn't positioned and marketed as an aspirational / cool product. There's a lot of people that just want to own it because it's the goto for aspirational / luxury electronics. That aside, I always buy only Apple because other products just deteriorate in terms of performance at an unbelievable rate. Have owned windows and android products and after using them for like a year, it's hard to believe that it's the same shiny machine that you thought would be a good buy.
- stjohnswarts 7y ago
  It's windows and not the hardware. I've never seen an issue with android though, so I'm not sure what you're talking about there. In that case it has been hardware, both Samsung and Google, usually with overheating chips. I still prefer the Android world though, I find the products more intuitive.
- FpUser 7y ago
  "...other products just deteriorate in terms of performance at an unbelievable rate. Have owned windows and android products and after using them for like a year, it's hard to believe that it's the same shiny machine that you thought would be a good buy" I use Windows and somehow my laptops and desktops do not deteriorate. Works like a charm. Same goes to my Linux setups. I do not use Android much beyond plain phone calls so can not really judge that one.
- emodendroket 7y ago
  I've had my Windows computer for like five years and it still works about as well as the day I purchased it, as far as I can tell. My iPad of a similar vintage is not really that good for surfing the Web anymore (though to be fair I think we can probably blame the explosion of complexity of Web pages) and I can't seem to make any purchases in the App Store anymore. I think it's hard to make much judgment here without more serious data than one or two people's experiences.
hamhand 7y ago
Maybe just slightly change icon colors to similar modern material colors will please them.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

by FpUser 7y ago

jiofih 7y ago

> beauty trumps usability/ergonomics. That can not possibly come from a UI designer. Usability is always first, and it’s possible to make it look good while maintaining a11y/usability properties.

Stratoscope 7y ago
Oh, it could easily come from some of the UI designers I've worked with in the past who followed modern design fads, especially regarding text: • Contrast is bad and hard on the eyes. The less contrast the better. • Decorative fonts with font-weight: 300 are better than ordinary normal weight fonts designed for readability. • It's better to have a small font with a lot of extra line-height instead of just making the font bigger.
pathseeker 7y ago
>Usability is always first There are a lot of UI designers that missed that memo.

Wowfunhappy 7y ago

I mean, it's very possible to create visually appealing UIs that also have lots of contrast. Apple used to do it...

dkersten 7y ago

> Maybe he is right but I'll stick to what I believe works. He’s not. If I can’t use a product, it doesn’t matter how beautiful it is.

slimsag 7y ago

I have had conversations with several "designers", some from FAANG, and all have held the general belief that having strong authority over how the UI looks and getting eye-candy at the cost of usability and ergonomics was 'without doubt the right choice'. In my frank opinion, many designers hold a position of subjective judgement and thrive on the power that comes with that. This is like a developer making arbitrary decisions about a product because they like the technical implementation better. Data, and actual user preference, should always be the key decider. Not some arbitrary rule-decider.

catalogia 7y ago
Be careful with data-driven design, you can easily end up fooling yourself into seeing evidence in the metrics for whatever you want to be true, I've seen it happen plenty. Accidental p-hacking by well meaning but misguided "data driven" programmers is not at all uncommon. Furthermore, in my experience the data doesn't necessarily mean what it's believed to mean, with the favored explanation for the data being assumed to be the correct explanation. (e.g. "We want more engagement. This data shows users are staying on this page longer, that's a measure of engagement." It may instead be a measure of your users getting confused, lost, etc.) My point here is that an earnest attempt to be data driven doesn't eliminate the matter of bias. Being cognizant of possible bias when evaluating the data is important, otherwise you'll have a false sense of confidence.
overgard 7y ago
The danger with data is it can keep you trapped in a local maxima. Also there's the whole thing with a lot of users seeming to be more and more annoyed with telemetry.
- andreitp1 7y ago
  THIS. So many people don't realize that true innovation cannot come from existing data.
  - xg15 7y ago
    Maybe, instead of either just declaring what is the "right" way or observing users like some kind of behavioural scientist, we could just go back to, I don't know, asking them.

anoncake 7y ago

Maybe putting engineers in charge of UI design isn't all that bad. We may not be good at making a UI work but at least (trying to) make things work is what we do. With designers, it's hit and miss.

dahart 7y ago

> he said that the beauty trumps usability/ergonomics. I just bailed out. Maybe he is right but I'll stick to what I believe works. I’m with you. Speaking personally, I think he is wrong. My definition of true beauty is both appearance and design. Something that is pretty to look at but not very ergonomic is ultimately not truly beautiful, in my mind. For something to be truly beautiful, it must be both sexy looking and ergonomic (and high quality, etc.). When something cute looking has usability problems, it starts to annoy me, it begins to look cheap and not well thought out, and ironically ultimately ends up looking rather ugly. Once I see bad design, it affects how I feel about the looks. Stuff around my house has ended up in this category. Throw pillows on the bed look great when the bed is made, but they’re not for sleep and they’re always in the way. Ugly. Cute glass jars in the kitchen that I can’t quite fit my hand into because they were made elliptical instead of round to have a low profile and be cute... they seemed like a good idea in the store, but it only takes trying to use them a few times before they really don’t look cute anymore.

FpUser 7y ago
I love industrial design. Because it mostly exposes function and quality. Stuff made for home use, sure it is pretty but they can have that plastic for themselves ;)

frank2 7y ago

Did you consider giving the the user some way to configure the text color?

FpUser 7y ago
I only make configurable things that MUST be configured. I've long learned that my audience when it comes to handling software for better or worse has the average intelligence approaching that of my cat. Not trying to insult here. Just general observation
- JosefAssad 7y ago
  I've observed something not too different. I suspect it might be that I and my users are at different levels of zoom with respect to the product. They really don't think about it at all except for when they need to get specific tasks done that the product does well. They are max zoomed out. I necessarily am zoomed in to the entire product, from every lowly line of code all the way up to the aggregate product. I am max zoomed in. This leads to a sense of alienation when I observe the relationship between my users and my product. Sometimes it's simpler to think that I actually don't know my own product, so different is the perspective. Really it's a matter of how much the product occupies in my mind versus theirs; they are using it opportunistically and would prefer to spend as little time as possible thinking about it. Which I suppose is a good argument against over-engineering; for a mass market product, core features beyond the third will only be used by the developers. Anyhow, all that is to say I can understand your comment, and I often think that I'm lucky the emacs developers or GvR don't look over my shoulder when I use their software because they would give their cats Nobel prizes. :)
- xg15 7y ago
  > Not trying to insult here. Just general observation Sorry, still an insult. But ok. So your users have the intelligence of a cat and are generally really helpless with your software. Then the obvious way forward is to include non-discoverable features, hard-to-read text and extra-confusing mouse gestures...?
  - 7y ago

Aeolun 7y ago

> beauty trumps usability/ergonomics That is just... Why is this person a designer if they don’t want to design? They should have become a painter or a musician.

sogen 7y ago

What software?

r_singh 7y ago

> beauty trumps usability/ergonomics I bet that beauty wouldn't have trumped usability (in terms of Apple's preference and an elite buyer's purchase decision) if it also wasn't positioned and marketed as an aspirational / cool product. There's a lot of people that just want to own it because it's the goto for aspirational / luxury electronics. That aside, I always buy only Apple because other products just deteriorate in terms of performance at an unbelievable rate. Have owned windows and android products and after using them for like a year, it's hard to believe that it's the same shiny machine that you thought would be a good buy.

stjohnswarts 7y ago
It's windows and not the hardware. I've never seen an issue with android though, so I'm not sure what you're talking about there. In that case it has been hardware, both Samsung and Google, usually with overheating chips. I still prefer the Android world though, I find the products more intuitive.
FpUser 7y ago
"...other products just deteriorate in terms of performance at an unbelievable rate. Have owned windows and android products and after using them for like a year, it's hard to believe that it's the same shiny machine that you thought would be a good buy" I use Windows and somehow my laptops and desktops do not deteriorate. Works like a charm. Same goes to my Linux setups. I do not use Android much beyond plain phone calls so can not really judge that one.
emodendroket 7y ago
I've had my Windows computer for like five years and it still works about as well as the day I purchased it, as far as I can tell. My iPad of a similar vintage is not really that good for surfing the Web anymore (though to be fair I think we can probably blame the explosion of complexity of Web pages) and I can't seem to make any purchases in the App Store anymore. I think it's hard to make much judgment here without more serious data than one or two people's experiences.

hamhand 7y ago

Maybe just slightly change icon colors to similar modern material colors will please them.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]