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This is not very surprising, is it? How many more data points do we need to conclude that COPs never achieve anything? I think it’s time to acknowledge that our

This is not very surprising, is it? How many more data points do we need to conclude that COPs never achieve anything? I think it’s time to acknowledge that our “leaders” have failed us.

chewz 7y ago
This is the thesis of Naomi Klein books. Current political system and pseudo-market solutions are incapable of solving the climate problem. And so far, unfortunately it is proven right. I do agree in principle (with some reservations perhaps). [] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/21913812-this-changes-everything https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/21913812-this-changes-ev...
- ianai 7y ago
  Does the book offer alternatives?
  - martythemaniak 7y ago
    Her husband was mulling a run for leader of canada's left-wing party, so they tried to make this part of their official policy: https://leapmanifesto.org/en/the-leap-manifesto/ https://leapmanifesto.org/en/the-leap-manifesto/ Whether you think that's an alternative, or a <expletive deleted> is up to you.
- dnautics 7y ago
  Except that if we instituted a simple carbon auction it's provably effective (not just theoretical, it very effective for NOx and SOx). I suppose that's not a pseudo market solution, that's a real market solution, unlike all of the trading proposals being put forth at the moment.
  - marcosdumay 7y ago
    An auction is a tax in disguise, the only difference is that if the government doesn't get the quantity exactly right it will either make the whole thing toothless or destroy its own economy. About NOx and SOx, those are local pollutants. Local problems are much easier to fix.
    - dnautics 7y ago
      NOx and SOx are not local pollutants. NOx/SOx emissions in one part of the world cause acid rain in other parts.
hutzlibu 7y ago
Oh, but on the other hand, they keep lots of certain people busy, so they can't do any harm in that time..
martythemaniak 7y ago
Have you ever tried to convince someone of taking even moderate climate-related action? I happen to think leaders may actually be a bit too far ahead of the population they represent when it comes to climate change.
- tyri_kai_psomi 7y ago
  There's no room for moderates in today's political climate. "You are either completely on board or you are against me" so the current zeitgeist goes. Essentially you have to align your beliefs and talking points with /r/politics and /r/enlightenedcentrism, or you are just closeted alt right.
  - Jweb_Guru 7y ago
    There is absolutely no point to moderation on climate, correct.
    - Mirioron 7y ago
      If you want something to ever actually be done, then there absolutely is a point for moderation. If you just go along with whatever people label as "saving the climate" then you're going to be taken for a ride. People don't like being taken for a ride, thus they resist what makes their life more difficult.
      - lotsofpulp 7y ago
        > People don't like being taken for a ride, thus they resist what makes their life more difficult. I doubt it. People don’t want to reduce consumption. People want their detached houses and front and back yards, they want their international vacations, domestic vacations, they want to drive around without thinking how much it will cost them. People want to see their children live easier lives than them, not harder. Conveniently ignoring their great great grandchildren’s lives, but there’s comfort in plausible deniability of not knowing the future.

This is not very surprising, is it? How many more data points do we need to conclude that COPs never achieve anything? I think it’s time to acknowledge that our “leaders” have failed us.

chewz 7y ago

This is the thesis of Naomi Klein books. Current political system and pseudo-market solutions are incapable of solving the climate problem. And so far, unfortunately it is proven right. I do agree in principle (with some reservations perhaps). [] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/21913812-this-changes-everything https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/21913812-this-changes-ev...

ianai 7y ago
Does the book offer alternatives?
- martythemaniak 7y ago
  Her husband was mulling a run for leader of canada's left-wing party, so they tried to make this part of their official policy: https://leapmanifesto.org/en/the-leap-manifesto/ https://leapmanifesto.org/en/the-leap-manifesto/ Whether you think that's an alternative, or a <expletive deleted> is up to you.
dnautics 7y ago
Except that if we instituted a simple carbon auction it's provably effective (not just theoretical, it very effective for NOx and SOx). I suppose that's not a pseudo market solution, that's a real market solution, unlike all of the trading proposals being put forth at the moment.
- marcosdumay 7y ago
  An auction is a tax in disguise, the only difference is that if the government doesn't get the quantity exactly right it will either make the whole thing toothless or destroy its own economy. About NOx and SOx, those are local pollutants. Local problems are much easier to fix.
  - dnautics 7y ago
    NOx and SOx are not local pollutants. NOx/SOx emissions in one part of the world cause acid rain in other parts.

hutzlibu 7y ago

Oh, but on the other hand, they keep lots of certain people busy, so they can't do any harm in that time..

martythemaniak 7y ago

Have you ever tried to convince someone of taking even moderate climate-related action? I happen to think leaders may actually be a bit too far ahead of the population they represent when it comes to climate change.

tyri_kai_psomi 7y ago
There's no room for moderates in today's political climate. "You are either completely on board or you are against me" so the current zeitgeist goes. Essentially you have to align your beliefs and talking points with /r/politics and /r/enlightenedcentrism, or you are just closeted alt right.
- Jweb_Guru 7y ago
  There is absolutely no point to moderation on climate, correct.
  - Mirioron 7y ago
    If you want something to ever actually be done, then there absolutely is a point for moderation. If you just go along with whatever people label as "saving the climate" then you're going to be taken for a ride. People don't like being taken for a ride, thus they resist what makes their life more difficult.
    - lotsofpulp 7y ago
      > People don't like being taken for a ride, thus they resist what makes their life more difficult. I doubt it. People don’t want to reduce consumption. People want their detached houses and front and back yards, they want their international vacations, domestic vacations, they want to drive around without thinking how much it will cost them. People want to see their children live easier lives than them, not harder. Conveniently ignoring their great great grandchildren’s lives, but there’s comfort in plausible deniability of not knowing the future.