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I think there is a future in hydrogen fuel cells, but not for personal transportation. Heavy machinery operated in remote areas like farming equipment have pre

I think there is a future in hydrogen fuel cells, but not for personal transportation. Heavy machinery operated in remote areas like farming equipment have pretty intense energy needs and downtime for charging could ruin a harvest. Batteries are also very heavy and soil compaction is a real issue for modern farming. I think we're approaching a time where the marginal cost of energy will be 0, but there will still be costs associated with using energy at a specific time or place. I would like to see a lot more dollars being spent on technology and facilities that can ramp their energy consumption up and down extremly quickly to absorb extra power on the grid. Hydrolysis seems like a fantastic candidate since the process is highly interruptible and the result is portable.

the8472 7y ago
Trains too, there are some experimental fuel cell lines replacing diesel locomotives in germany and they ordered more, so it seems to be working. Presumably it's cheaper than electrifying branch lines.
- Reason077 7y ago
  Battery electric trains also greatly reduce the cost of rail electrification. They can charge when running under the wires, then use battery power on unnelectrified sections and branch lines.
  - taneq 7y ago
    I’d imagine you would only need a relatively short section of powered rail around each station, plus maybe some boosters for long inter-station runs or hills. I’m surprised this approach isn’t more common.
api 7y ago
I've always wondered why you couldn't just string a wire from a tower down to a combine, tractor, or other piece of farm equipment and run it right off the grid. Using very high voltage could allow the wire to not be that heavy.
- ethbro 7y ago
  Because farms are huge, and any given unit of area needs to be touched relatively infrequently.
  - api 7y ago
    Cables can be thin and long. Look at high tension wires which carry vastly more power. It stands to reason that a much thinner lighter cord could run a combine.
    - mikestew 7y ago
      I won’t even use a corded lawn mower. I highly doubt I’d put up with dragging a wire behind a combine through a 400 acre field.
      - api 7y ago
        Not dragging but way overhead from something about the height of a radio tower. There could be one about every square mile in a grid. It could have a smaller battery too to permit driving between them. Drive up, hook on, unhook, go to next.
        mikestew 7y ago
        It occurs to me that because I’ve operated farm equipment, maybe one should ignore my poo-pooing. Seriously, sure, I can tell you eight ways to Sunday this won’t work, and some smarty-pants can show me how I’m wrong. But right now I’m just stuck in a mode of “that’s more hassle than filling it with diesel and being done with it”. I might be right, but that’s not where innovation comes from, so I’ll be quiet.
        api 7y ago
        It probably is more of a hassle but it would also be cheaper and lower emission. Of course I dont know if fuel is a significant cost to farmers. There may be ways to make it less of a hassle by automating it somehow. I'm thinking of some standard hook on/off system. It's a tough problem though. Maybe batteries will just keep getting better and lighter and cheaper and we can just go that way.
maxerickson 7y ago
Some alcohol probably makes more sense in a near zero cost energy world than hydrogen. It's easier to store and blah blah blah.
marcosdumay 7y ago
It's much easier to add some carbon into your hydrogen than it is to deal with all the problems that hydrogen bring.
- pm90 7y ago
  This might be a dumb question: what if you could build a reactor that electrolyzes water but then also converts it into methane? If the electricity used for the process was derived from renewable sources, the process would still be carbon neutral, yeah? I'm assuming the carbon itself could be harvest through non-fossil fuel means (biological perhaps? burn cellulose?).
  - Reason077 7y ago
    Pilot “methanation” plants are already producing synthetic methane from hydrogen and CO2: https://www.uniper.energy/news/methanation-plant-in-falkenhagen-starts-operation-and-supplies-synthetic-methane--another-step-towards-a-successful-energy-transition/ https://www.uniper.energy/news/methanation-plant-in-falkenha...
madengr 7y ago
This is a good article on zero carbon farming utilizing hydrogen and ammonia powered tractors, using solar to produce the hydrogen. https://spectrum.ieee.org/energy/environment/a-retired-jpl-engineers-journey-from-space-probes-to-carbonneutral-farming https://spectrum.ieee.org/energy/environment/a-retired-jpl-e...
vvanders 7y ago
As an EV owner who also owns a 7klb Kubota CUT diesel is still ideal here for a few reasons. First it's easy to handle and transport, hydrogen has no shortage of issues there. It has a heck of a shelf life, my understanding is hydrogen will leak out and is a massive pain to store. Unless you're doing serious ground work an EV based platform could be fine with solar. JCB already has a few electric excavators and they work pretty well. I also with there was more focus on biodiesel, that has the aspect of being carbon neutral while working with a lot of existing infrastructure.
- Reason077 7y ago
  Biodiesel doesn’t solve air pollution, which is a huge health issue in many cities. Admittedly it’s not such an acute problem for farms and rural areas, though, where biodiesel does make sense.
  - vvanders 7y ago
    Yeah, that also depends on how modern your diesel is. The Kubota is much, much better on the particulate scale vs out old Ford thanks to a substantial DPF filter. Newer diesels, when not modified are much better than they used to be.
mcot2 7y ago
Theres also this thing: https://www.slashgear.com/hydrogen-fuel-cell-ev-charger-afc-energy-17562686/ https://www.slashgear.com/hydrogen-fuel-cell-ev-charger-afc-... I have no idea if the economics of that actually will work.
blotter_paper 7y ago
> I think we're approaching a time where the marginal cost of energy will be 0 I strongly believe that we will continue to find arbitrary uses for available energy, e.g. Bitcoin mining. I can buy that current normal household energy use will approach 0 cost, but I think there will be players that scale use in such massive amounts that marginal costs will still matter to them.

the8472 7y ago

Trains too, there are some experimental fuel cell lines replacing diesel locomotives in germany and they ordered more, so it seems to be working. Presumably it's cheaper than electrifying branch lines.

Reason077 7y ago
Battery electric trains also greatly reduce the cost of rail electrification. They can charge when running under the wires, then use battery power on unnelectrified sections and branch lines.
- taneq 7y ago
  I’d imagine you would only need a relatively short section of powered rail around each station, plus maybe some boosters for long inter-station runs or hills. I’m surprised this approach isn’t more common.

api 7y ago

I've always wondered why you couldn't just string a wire from a tower down to a combine, tractor, or other piece of farm equipment and run it right off the grid. Using very high voltage could allow the wire to not be that heavy.

ethbro 7y ago
Because farms are huge, and any given unit of area needs to be touched relatively infrequently.
- api 7y ago
  Cables can be thin and long. Look at high tension wires which carry vastly more power. It stands to reason that a much thinner lighter cord could run a combine.
  - mikestew 7y ago
    I won’t even use a corded lawn mower. I highly doubt I’d put up with dragging a wire behind a combine through a 400 acre field.
    - api 7y ago
      Not dragging but way overhead from something about the height of a radio tower. There could be one about every square mile in a grid. It could have a smaller battery too to permit driving between them. Drive up, hook on, unhook, go to next.
      - mikestew 7y ago
        It occurs to me that because I’ve operated farm equipment, maybe one should ignore my poo-pooing. Seriously, sure, I can tell you eight ways to Sunday this won’t work, and some smarty-pants can show me how I’m wrong. But right now I’m just stuck in a mode of “that’s more hassle than filling it with diesel and being done with it”. I might be right, but that’s not where innovation comes from, so I’ll be quiet.
        api 7y ago
        It probably is more of a hassle but it would also be cheaper and lower emission. Of course I dont know if fuel is a significant cost to farmers. There may be ways to make it less of a hassle by automating it somehow. I'm thinking of some standard hook on/off system. It's a tough problem though. Maybe batteries will just keep getting better and lighter and cheaper and we can just go that way.

maxerickson 7y ago

Some alcohol probably makes more sense in a near zero cost energy world than hydrogen. It's easier to store and blah blah blah.

marcosdumay 7y ago

It's much easier to add some carbon into your hydrogen than it is to deal with all the problems that hydrogen bring.

pm90 7y ago
This might be a dumb question: what if you could build a reactor that electrolyzes water but then also converts it into methane? If the electricity used for the process was derived from renewable sources, the process would still be carbon neutral, yeah? I'm assuming the carbon itself could be harvest through non-fossil fuel means (biological perhaps? burn cellulose?).
- Reason077 7y ago
  Pilot “methanation” plants are already producing synthetic methane from hydrogen and CO2: https://www.uniper.energy/news/methanation-plant-in-falkenhagen-starts-operation-and-supplies-synthetic-methane--another-step-towards-a-successful-energy-transition/ https://www.uniper.energy/news/methanation-plant-in-falkenha...

madengr 7y ago

This is a good article on zero carbon farming utilizing hydrogen and ammonia powered tractors, using solar to produce the hydrogen. https://spectrum.ieee.org/energy/environment/a-retired-jpl-engineers-journey-from-space-probes-to-carbonneutral-farming https://spectrum.ieee.org/energy/environment/a-retired-jpl-e...

vvanders 7y ago

As an EV owner who also owns a 7klb Kubota CUT diesel is still ideal here for a few reasons. First it's easy to handle and transport, hydrogen has no shortage of issues there. It has a heck of a shelf life, my understanding is hydrogen will leak out and is a massive pain to store. Unless you're doing serious ground work an EV based platform could be fine with solar. JCB already has a few electric excavators and they work pretty well. I also with there was more focus on biodiesel, that has the aspect of being carbon neutral while working with a lot of existing infrastructure.

Reason077 7y ago
Biodiesel doesn’t solve air pollution, which is a huge health issue in many cities. Admittedly it’s not such an acute problem for farms and rural areas, though, where biodiesel does make sense.
- vvanders 7y ago
  Yeah, that also depends on how modern your diesel is. The Kubota is much, much better on the particulate scale vs out old Ford thanks to a substantial DPF filter. Newer diesels, when not modified are much better than they used to be.

mcot2 7y ago

Theres also this thing: https://www.slashgear.com/hydrogen-fuel-cell-ev-charger-afc-energy-17562686/ https://www.slashgear.com/hydrogen-fuel-cell-ev-charger-afc-... I have no idea if the economics of that actually will work.

blotter_paper 7y ago

> I think we're approaching a time where the marginal cost of energy will be 0 I strongly believe that we will continue to find arbitrary uses for available energy, e.g. Bitcoin mining. I can buy that current normal household energy use will approach 0 cost, but I think there will be players that scale use in such massive amounts that marginal costs will still matter to them.