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> Ask women and you'll find that most aren't interested in programming a computer all day I think this though itself is an artefact of a male dominated profess

by zmmmmm 7y ago

> Ask women and you'll find that most aren't interested in programming a computer all day I think this though itself is an artefact of a male dominated profession. The fact that working with software is "programming a computer all day" reflects a male preference and value system, and many people open acknowledge that it's quite harmful and often creates quite dysfunctional teams. We need better requirements, better communication, better documentation, more human approach to the whole process. I've talked to great women working in software development who say "I don't really care about the programming itself and I would never go home and do it for fun - but I love the other aspects of the job". Perhaps the nature of the job itself needs to change a bit for the preferences to adjust.

jimbokun 7y ago
If I understand you correctly, people who like working alone on challenging tasks are inherently deficient and we need to drive them out of the workplace to make others more comfortable? Isn't there a place for people good at thinking deeply about difficult problems on their own and coming up with effective solutions? Yes, everyone needs to be able to communicate well to be part of an effective team. But there is also a role for deep thinking and introspection. By the way, introverted women exist, too.
- foldr 7y ago
  > If I understand you correctly, people who like working alone on challenging tasks are inherently deficient and we need to drive them out of the workplace to make others more comfortable? You can't possibly think that this is what the person you are replying to is saying. But anyway, the point is that the conception of programming as a task suited to people who like to work in isolation is incorrect and harmful. One of the most common pitfalls of software development is writing software that no-one wants or needs. The solution to that problem lies in better communication. Of course, there are some kinds of programming problems that are suited to intense work in isolation. But most programmers probably need to spend more time talking to their non-programmer colleagues.
  - jimbokun 7y ago
    > You can't possibly think that this is what the person you are replying to is saying. I do think that. I think programming selects for people high in introversion and maybe even on the autistic spectrum. I think some extroverted people find those people deficient and don't like working with them, and would like to change the working environment to be less comfortable for the introverts and more comfortable for the extroverts.
    - foldr 7y ago
      Programming culture selects for those people, to an extent. If you're employed as a programmer, you're most likely being paid to solve other people's problems by writing code. If you can't communicate with those people, you'll never be able to do that successfully. It's no conspiracy. A socially clueless introvert who's being paid a lot of money to do nothing useful doesn't have much to offer.
      - jimbokun 7y ago
        Of course you have to communicate with people to be effective. There are also a lot of tasks where thinking deeply without distractions or interruptions for an extended period of time is the best way to come up with good solutions. And even a lot of the best communication comes from taking time in quiet and deeply thinking about what you want to say and writing a good, convincing argument. Thinking introverts have nothing productive to offer is just bigotry, and really makes you come across as a complete ass.
        foldr 7y ago
        Of course you sometimes need quiet time alone to work on a programming task. The point is that you'd better also be capable of communicating frequently and effectively with your colleagues. For sure, many introverts are perfectly capable of doing that. (There are also many extroverts who can work alone when the occasion calls for it.) My point is that introversion is not a wholly adventitious trait for a programmer. Looking at the job description objectively, one would not expect programmers to skew strongly towards introversion.

by zmmmmm 7y ago

jimbokun 7y ago

If I understand you correctly, people who like working alone on challenging tasks are inherently deficient and we need to drive them out of the workplace to make others more comfortable? Isn't there a place for people good at thinking deeply about difficult problems on their own and coming up with effective solutions? Yes, everyone needs to be able to communicate well to be part of an effective team. But there is also a role for deep thinking and introspection. By the way, introverted women exist, too.

foldr 7y ago
> If I understand you correctly, people who like working alone on challenging tasks are inherently deficient and we need to drive them out of the workplace to make others more comfortable? You can't possibly think that this is what the person you are replying to is saying. But anyway, the point is that the conception of programming as a task suited to people who like to work in isolation is incorrect and harmful. One of the most common pitfalls of software development is writing software that no-one wants or needs. The solution to that problem lies in better communication. Of course, there are some kinds of programming problems that are suited to intense work in isolation. But most programmers probably need to spend more time talking to their non-programmer colleagues.
- jimbokun 7y ago
  > You can't possibly think that this is what the person you are replying to is saying. I do think that. I think programming selects for people high in introversion and maybe even on the autistic spectrum. I think some extroverted people find those people deficient and don't like working with them, and would like to change the working environment to be less comfortable for the introverts and more comfortable for the extroverts.
  - foldr 7y ago
    Programming culture selects for those people, to an extent. If you're employed as a programmer, you're most likely being paid to solve other people's problems by writing code. If you can't communicate with those people, you'll never be able to do that successfully. It's no conspiracy. A socially clueless introvert who's being paid a lot of money to do nothing useful doesn't have much to offer.
    - jimbokun 7y ago
      Of course you have to communicate with people to be effective. There are also a lot of tasks where thinking deeply without distractions or interruptions for an extended period of time is the best way to come up with good solutions. And even a lot of the best communication comes from taking time in quiet and deeply thinking about what you want to say and writing a good, convincing argument. Thinking introverts have nothing productive to offer is just bigotry, and really makes you come across as a complete ass.
      - foldr 7y ago
        Of course you sometimes need quiet time alone to work on a programming task. The point is that you'd better also be capable of communicating frequently and effectively with your colleagues. For sure, many introverts are perfectly capable of doing that. (There are also many extroverts who can work alone when the occasion calls for it.) My point is that introversion is not a wholly adventitious trait for a programmer. Looking at the job description objectively, one would not expect programmers to skew strongly towards introversion.