6 ms·

I hope it's a joke, or something is missing there. I try to save as much as possible and I barely spend 25% of my income. Forcing me to spend more is not right.

I hope it's a joke, or something is missing there. I try to save as much as possible and I barely spend 25% of my income. Forcing me to spend more is not right. Maybe they were rather thinking about: move your money electronically, which would also include getting salary on a bank account, or wiring it there.

docdeek 7y ago
If I understand it, the point is to avoid cash transactions that cannot be taxed. One article I read pointed out that the 30% would include rent or mortgage payments, utility bills, and such things. Personally, I would find it easy to hit almost 100% of the transactions I make electronically - I use cash rarely now (living in France, no cash tips etc.). I think I would struggle to only spend 25% of my income, though. Even if I am saving a lot, once I pay rent, family groceries, utilities, phone and internet, I’d be past that. If you don’t mind to share, how do you manage to spend so little of your income? There’s always room for me to save more, and I’d love a couple of tips.
- vinni2 7y ago
  He is probably well paid. I agree it’s hard to keep the expenses below 25% of income.
- taneq 7y ago
  I'm guessing single person willing to live frugally, working in high paid tech job. That, or using different definitions and not literally saving 75% of take-home pay.
- esotericn 7y ago
  It's trivial. You just need to earn 4 times your minimum spend and then do it. ;)
- andmarios 7y ago
  Allow me to explain better. The 30% comes before any tax. Also it does not include payments for taxes, rent and other things. So, let's say I make €40K/year. My tax will be about €11K. Further taxes, such as owning some property, owning a car, can add €1-3K more. My rent may be €7K. So now, I have already spent ~€20K but this does not count towards this limit. I still have to spent €12K on various things (food, services, goods, which come with 24% VAT in Greece) or I get an additional 22% tax. It's madness!
  - mnw21cam 7y ago
    The article says that payments for rent do count towards the limit. Can you re-confirm?
    - andmarios 7y ago
      I can. Rent does not count towards spending but it counts towards... earning. So, if you own a house and rent it to others, the rent is part of your income. If you rent a house to leave in, the rent is not part of your spent amount. There is a special clause, that if you spent more than 60% towards tax, rent and loan payments, then you only have to spent 20% of your income on services, goods, etc.
  - docdeek 7y ago
    The article explicitly includes rent: "Greeks can use debit cards, credit cards, bank transfers and ecommerce for the electronic transactions, which includes rent."
- PeterStuer 7y ago
  There is a global 'war on cash' by the finance lobby because they can easily insert fees on every electronic transaction, while at the same time hyper-virtualise their operations. Lose all those branch offices and ATM's that need to be maintained and supplied. Just have a computer, a banking app and some AI bots and you can do it all with near zero cost and rentseek the hell on every single transaction for the 99%. Tell the public sector it is all in the name of combating 'tax-evasion', you know, the evasions you make possible by lobbying for very convoluted taxation regimes with many always changing backdoors you are advising your 1% clientele on.
  - rimliu 7y ago
    Do you really think maintaining infrastructure for electronic payments and internet banking is "near-zero cost"?
    - PeterStuer 7y ago
      Compared to traditional banking real-estate, employees, physical operations and security ... yes.
      - rimliu 7y ago
        "Near-zero“, really?
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
sweeneyrod 7y ago
Then you must be pretty rich. A lot of Americans spend 25% of their income on housing alone.
- puPoh 7y ago
  > Then you must be pretty rich. Not at all! If you own a house or rent a tiny apartment and live frugally you can do that with a middle-class income.
  - abyssin 7y ago
    Owning a house probably makes you pretty rich in the eyes of many people.
  - disiplus 7y ago
    if you own a house you are rich.
    - refurb 7y ago
      70% of Americans own their own home. Are 70% of Americans rich?
      - docdeek 7y ago
        I would expect 70% might have a mortgage but owning - as in not having to pay the mortgage because you own the home entirely - would be well under 70%.
      - Spivak 7y ago
        If you’re under 35 and own your home outright you’re either rich or your parents are.
      - icebraining 7y ago
        No, 70% live in a non-rented home (an adult son living in their parent's home is also counted, for example). Also, only 34% are fully paid off.
stirbot 7y ago
Do you keep the 75% in cash under your mattress? Or do you electronically transfer it to investment accounts?
tomcooks 7y ago
The way I see it is that the government wants Greek nationals to use electronic payments for at least 30% of their expenses, to aid tracking. This does NOT mean the government wants Greek nationals to spend at least 30% of their income.
- andmarios 7y ago
  This is exactly what it wants. 30% before any tax, without counting rent, etc must be spent or you face 22% tax on the unspent amount. :)
- mitsakos 7y ago
  > The way I see it is that the government wants Greek nationals to use electronic payments for at least 30% of their expenses That does not compute. How does one prove that 30% of their expenses were done using electronic payments? Submitting paper receipts for the other 70%? It's been tried and it's unfeasible.
yohannparis 7y ago
I do believe that if you put the rest of your income in a saving account, or investment it is counted as spending it. Become it is not income anymore but an asset.

docdeek 7y ago

If I understand it, the point is to avoid cash transactions that cannot be taxed. One article I read pointed out that the 30% would include rent or mortgage payments, utility bills, and such things. Personally, I would find it easy to hit almost 100% of the transactions I make electronically - I use cash rarely now (living in France, no cash tips etc.). I think I would struggle to only spend 25% of my income, though. Even if I am saving a lot, once I pay rent, family groceries, utilities, phone and internet, I’d be past that. If you don’t mind to share, how do you manage to spend so little of your income? There’s always room for me to save more, and I’d love a couple of tips.

vinni2 7y ago
He is probably well paid. I agree it’s hard to keep the expenses below 25% of income.
taneq 7y ago
I'm guessing single person willing to live frugally, working in high paid tech job. That, or using different definitions and not literally saving 75% of take-home pay.
esotericn 7y ago
It's trivial. You just need to earn 4 times your minimum spend and then do it. ;)
andmarios 7y ago
Allow me to explain better. The 30% comes before any tax. Also it does not include payments for taxes, rent and other things. So, let's say I make €40K/year. My tax will be about €11K. Further taxes, such as owning some property, owning a car, can add €1-3K more. My rent may be €7K. So now, I have already spent ~€20K but this does not count towards this limit. I still have to spent €12K on various things (food, services, goods, which come with 24% VAT in Greece) or I get an additional 22% tax. It's madness!
- mnw21cam 7y ago
  The article says that payments for rent do count towards the limit. Can you re-confirm?
  - andmarios 7y ago
    I can. Rent does not count towards spending but it counts towards... earning. So, if you own a house and rent it to others, the rent is part of your income. If you rent a house to leave in, the rent is not part of your spent amount. There is a special clause, that if you spent more than 60% towards tax, rent and loan payments, then you only have to spent 20% of your income on services, goods, etc.
- docdeek 7y ago
  The article explicitly includes rent: "Greeks can use debit cards, credit cards, bank transfers and ecommerce for the electronic transactions, which includes rent."
PeterStuer 7y ago
There is a global 'war on cash' by the finance lobby because they can easily insert fees on every electronic transaction, while at the same time hyper-virtualise their operations. Lose all those branch offices and ATM's that need to be maintained and supplied. Just have a computer, a banking app and some AI bots and you can do it all with near zero cost and rentseek the hell on every single transaction for the 99%. Tell the public sector it is all in the name of combating 'tax-evasion', you know, the evasions you make possible by lobbying for very convoluted taxation regimes with many always changing backdoors you are advising your 1% clientele on.
- rimliu 7y ago
  Do you really think maintaining infrastructure for electronic payments and internet banking is "near-zero cost"?
  - PeterStuer 7y ago
    Compared to traditional banking real-estate, employees, physical operations and security ... yes.
    - rimliu 7y ago
      "Near-zero“, really?
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

sweeneyrod 7y ago

Then you must be pretty rich. A lot of Americans spend 25% of their income on housing alone.

puPoh 7y ago
> Then you must be pretty rich. Not at all! If you own a house or rent a tiny apartment and live frugally you can do that with a middle-class income.
- abyssin 7y ago
  Owning a house probably makes you pretty rich in the eyes of many people.
- disiplus 7y ago
  if you own a house you are rich.
  - refurb 7y ago
    70% of Americans own their own home. Are 70% of Americans rich?
    - docdeek 7y ago
      I would expect 70% might have a mortgage but owning - as in not having to pay the mortgage because you own the home entirely - would be well under 70%.
    - Spivak 7y ago
      If you’re under 35 and own your home outright you’re either rich or your parents are.
    - icebraining 7y ago
      No, 70% live in a non-rented home (an adult son living in their parent's home is also counted, for example). Also, only 34% are fully paid off.

stirbot 7y ago

Do you keep the 75% in cash under your mattress? Or do you electronically transfer it to investment accounts?

tomcooks 7y ago

The way I see it is that the government wants Greek nationals to use electronic payments for at least 30% of their expenses, to aid tracking. This does NOT mean the government wants Greek nationals to spend at least 30% of their income.

andmarios 7y ago
This is exactly what it wants. 30% before any tax, without counting rent, etc must be spent or you face 22% tax on the unspent amount. :)
mitsakos 7y ago
> The way I see it is that the government wants Greek nationals to use electronic payments for at least 30% of their expenses That does not compute. How does one prove that 30% of their expenses were done using electronic payments? Submitting paper receipts for the other 70%? It's been tried and it's unfeasible.

yohannparis 7y ago

I do believe that if you put the rest of your income in a saving account, or investment it is counted as spending it. Become it is not income anymore but an asset.