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Category:Obsolete occupations
- LinuxBender 7y agoGarden Hermit sounds quite relaxing. I would love for someone to pay me to live in their garden. Bonus points if I am allowed to stand like a statue and stare at people. How do we revive this occupation and make it a trend?
- Jamwinner 7y agoOddly, most of these still exist, but hve just chnged names. I must have clicked on a dozen, only to discover that they are just obsolete descriptors, and the roles live on. Which is interesting in a way I was not expecting.
- HenryKissinger 7y agoI was a little surprised to see "line infantry" and "heavy infantry", considering that grunt troops are pretty much the modern successors of line infantry, and Rangers (for the US) and special forces are the modern successors of heavy infantry.
- Bnshsysjab 7y agoI’m sure higher end hotels would have lift operators too.
- TeMPOraL 7y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palace_of_Culture_and_Science https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palace_of_Culture_and_Science has a viewing floor and a lift you use to get to it is operated manually by an employee. I would guess similar places have this arrangement too.
- ofrzeta 7y agoThere was a piece in the NYT a while ago about manually operated elevators in NYC https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/15/nyregion/manual-elevators-operators.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/15/nyregion/manual-elevators...
- semi-extrinsic 7y agoIf you click on e.g. Bombardier, you find the explanation that this job still exists, it's just called Combat Systems Officer. Looking through the list, it can pretty much be divided into "hard manual labor replaced by steam engines" and "old word for an occupation that still exists today".
- C1sc0cat 7y agoRangers, Paras and SF are Light or possibly Dragoons (air Cavalry)
- duxut_staglatz 7y agoSF (or SOF for Americans) would better be light infantry: >Light infantry is a designation applied to certain types of foot soldiers (infantry) throughout history, typically having lighter equipment or armament or a more mobile or fluid function than other types of infantry, such as heavy infantry or line infantry. Historically, light infantry often fought as scouts, raiders and skirmishers—soldiers who fight in a loose formation ahead of the main army to harass, delay, disrupt supply lines, and generally "soften up" an enemy before the main battle. After World War II, the term "light infantry" evolved, and now generally refers to rapid-deployment units (including commandos and airborne units) that specifically emphasize speed and mobility over armor and firepower. Some units or battalions that historically held a skirmishing role have kept their designation "light infantry" for the sake of tradition. Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_infantry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_infantry
- C1sc0cat 7y agoThe British army still has "Line" regiments
- cstrat 7y agoYeah, some are actually not obsolete like Scribe.
- fortran77 7y agoYes! I just placed an offer with the sofer (Hebrew for "scribe") for more scrolls just yesterday. It's still an occupation. (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sofer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sofer )
- stock_toaster 7y agoand coopers! They just mostly work in a far reduced pervasiveness than they used to. Mostly spirits (whisky, wine, etc) aging casks these days?
- matt-attack 7y agoLinotype operator? Type setter?
- jvanderbot 7y agoNay! Moveable type is still sometimes used to print that metalic lettering on high end cards. Before college, I worked one of those machines.
- hbcondo714 7y agoI went on a guided tour in Australia early this year and the topic of occupations came up. Our tour guide said he used to be a cartographer and then switched to being a tour guide because "Google put him out of business". I honestly didn't know what a cartographer was so I googled it and it's someone who makes maps. I can see why he became a tour guide and why he blames Google. I wonder about all the other cartographers out there; perhaps cartographer should be on this list.
- GrifMD 7y agoFrom a strict since of literal map makers drawing maps, yes that position would be obsolete apart from maybe some niche "for the art of it" scenarios, like the man mapping out the remaining dirt roads in the United States. Check out this New Yorker article if you're interested in that specific case: https://www.newyorker.com/culture/annals-of-inquiry/dirt-road-america https://www.newyorker.com/culture/annals-of-inquiry/dirt-roa...
- nexuist 7y agoSurely there are many cartographers that work on the Maps team? I doubt all of that content can be generated directly from satellite images. Furthermore there are many cartographers that work for e.g. oil companies and the military. Google Maps provides a great service to consumers, but there are thousands of map types that it does not support that both the public and private sector need made.
- bransonf 7y ago“Cartographer” was replaced by “Geospatial data scientist” or the like. There is little market left for purely drawing maps. That is now just an expected skill among those in the field of GIS.
- DoingIsLearning 7y agoMaybe if they had _some_ cartographers in the maps team perhaps google would understand the importance of a having a scale shown on a map _all_ the time. A map is by definition drawn to scale, having a scale on the map is what makes it a map. We may maintain proportions but by removing the scale, it simply becomes a polished drawing with zero intuition of distance. I am old enough that I navigated forest/mountain treks with a compass and topographic map as a teen. To me not having a map scale when navigating to a new place feels really disconcerting.
- throwaway_2047 7y agoIce cutting https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2eLl_WA7CQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2eLl_WA7CQ Almost.
- BurningFrog 7y agoAnd yet unemployment is the lowest in decades!
- rahuldottech 7y agoBecause new jobs have been created, which didn't exist.
- Bnshsysjab 7y agoUnemployment isn’t bad in theory, it’d imply that we’ve become more productive as a race. There’s plenty of busywork type jobs in Japan and Australia, from what I’ve seen.
- prawn 7y agoDo you mean "as a species"?
- bnt 7y agoThere is a term “human race”
- Bnshsysjab 7y agoSemantic corrections like this alienate people from hn.
- 7y ago
- keiferski 7y agoKnocker-ups are one of my favorites. Essentially human alarm clocks, they would tap on windows with a long stick to quietly wake the room’s inhabitants. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knocker-up https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knocker-up
- k_sze 7y agoWhich makes me wonder: who would wake the knocker-upper so they go wake other people on time? Turtles all the way down. Or maybe a rooster?
- TeMPOraL 7y agoYou designate a knocker-upper knocker-upper, a person who goes to sleep with the inhabitants, and the last thing they do is to wake the knocker-uppers up.
- craz8 7y agoIf it was me, I’d stay up all night, and make sure to have customers really, really early to keep me busy!
- godzilla82 7y agoCan't the knocker-upper just use an alarm clock?
- random_upvoter 7y agoNo need for infinite recursion! A knocks up B, 8 hours later B knocks up C, 8 hours later C knocks up A.
- mxcrossb 7y agoSounds like an industry ripe for disruption. Crowd source that job with an app, and the primary money maker is all that data you get on people waking up. Use the block chain to confirm awakenings. Eventually the workers will be replaced by self driving cars, so we will invest heavily in deep learning. 100 million in seed money should be enough right?
- rahuldottech 7y ago> A printer's devil was an apprentice in a printing establishment who performed a number of tasks, such as mixing tubs of ink and fetching type. Notable writers including Ambrose Bierce, Benjamin Franklin and Mark Twain served as printer's devils in their youth. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Printer%27s_devil https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Printer%27s_devil
- etaioinshrdlu 7y agoOh, that's what that Twilight Zone episode was named after... Neat.
- JoeAltmaier 7y agoI thought it was principally sorting and setting type - the metal letters had to be physically arranged (mirror image) in a small rack and screwed into a tight frame. Tedious.
- aba_cz 7y agoGalley slave https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galley_slave https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galley_slave is not really a job, is it? Maybe the title should be copied from Wikipedia where it says "occupation" instead of "job".
- asab 7y agoHa, one of the entries is Hippeis: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippeis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippeis
- ToFab123 7y agoThe last remaining few happen to live on the same small Thailand island as i do. I am very happy to say that they are not extinct although they are becoming fewer, unfortunately
- LanceH 7y agoWhy do I feel like someone is going through this list today and opening a new shop in Portland tomorrow?
- hinkley 7y agoTomorrow? It's only 9:15, there's plenty of time to start tonight!
- reitzensteinm 7y agoToo unsafe until we bring the Lamplighters back.
- themodelplumber 7y agoFunny. Personally I was just imagining... Say for (wild) example you end up going to war against a neighboring city and all you have for air support is whatever's parked at your municipal airport. You think a bombardier is going to be an obsolete person at that point? A tad bit more seriously, but still related: I do find lists like this suspect when viewed in terms of their resiliency over time vs. localized changes in circumstances.
- LanceH 7y agoA common contest among pilots is dropping flour bombs for accuracy.
- stock_toaster 7y agoPretty sure we already have Herb Strewers here! ;)
- louis8799 7y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_(job_description) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_(job_description) Computer literally.
- themodelplumber 7y agoI once stumbled across a group of friends doing just that, in order to complete a project. While amusing, it worked and it was all they could think to do at the time. It made me wonder when checking out your link: If those friends could talk to a real Computer (person), would that Computer (person) be able to give them any practicable advice based on years of experience? Little tricks, or things to watch out for? Was any wisdom lost to the ages when the paid Computer role faded from the world at a broader scale?
- pugio 7y agoYour questions reminded me of a wonderful Asimov story where he takes this to a delightfully absurd extreme: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Feeling_of_Power https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Feeling_of_Power Eerily relevant in our smartphone age.
- dbcurtis 7y agoYup. One of my old coworkers from years ago, an OS programmer, used to joke that his mother was a computer. She had been a computer for the University economics department. When electronic computers came in, she became a keypunch operator. He got a job as a systems programmer at the university following the standard hiring track of the day -- as an undergrad he figured out how to crack the OS so that he could under-bill his runs and get free mainframe time. When he was caught, he was offered a part-time student job on the sys-pro staff. I met him years later when he was a senior OS architect.
- moralestapia 7y agoYou would be impressed to know the proportion of Master/PhD students who are, in that sense, literal computers. >Check these 4,000 pictures and count the number of green dots you see, store it in an excel table. If you see more than five, send me an email immediately. >Put a 1 on it, then run it, then put a 2 on it and run it, then put a 3 on it and run it, go on until you reach 10,000. When you are done calculate positives/total and infer a p-value. If it is lower than or equal to 0.05, you're done, if it isn't continue until you reach 100,000. If it still higher than 0.05, we'll get you another PhD project. >From the set {a, b, c, d, e, f, g ... z or more} pick two, run the experiment with those, document the result. Pick another two and continue until you exhaust all the possibilities. And the list goes on ...
- jancsika 7y ago> Alchemist ! Does that mean I can add occupations like "car warranty representative" and "pretending to be an architect"? Edit: also, why is it in italics?
- k_sze 7y agoHere is a fun one: film interpreter (解畫員 in Chinese/Cantonese) Many many years ago, foreign films (primarily from Hollywood and in English?) were becoming popular in Hong Kong, but the general populace was either too illiterate or didn't speak or read English. Dubbing in Cantonese was inexistent back then (I guess the studios didn't distribute the films to the Hong Kong movie theatre chains or distributors with dialogue and sound effects on separate sound tracks, like they can today thanks to object-based encodings); subtitling was also useless or inexistent (maybe due to lack of technology, and also due to poor literacy levels). So the movie theatres hired film interpreters. The film interpreter would literally stand next to the silver screen during the screening, and verbally explain, in Cantonese, what the actors were saying or relevant English text displayed on screen. Obviously that wasn't very scalable. As technology progressed and as the population's literacy and education improved, it became feasible to put subtitles or dub the films in Cantonese. So the job of the film interpreter became obsolete. Nowadays, the verb (解畫, to interprete a film) has been hijacked to mean something else: to defuse a misunderstanding that was a result of ambiguous or careless wordings in speech between two parties.
- rangibaby 7y agoThis movie has a “video joker”: https://youtu.be/KEoGrbKAyKE https://youtu.be/KEoGrbKAyKE
- lisper 7y agoThat was oddly fascinating. Thanks for that pointer!
- soulofmischief 7y agoTo anyone passing by, I cannot recommend this film enough and encourage everyone to see it.
- keiferski 7y agoIIRC this practice is still common in some African countries. I can’t find the article but I believe it was in Nigeria...? The creative act of “dubbing” was itself part of the entertainment and often wasn’t actually true to the dialogue in the film. Edit: found it. Uganda, not Nigeria. https://www.economist.com/baobab/2012/11/02/coming-to-you-live https://www.economist.com/baobab/2012/11/02/coming-to-you-li...
- gre 7y agoI always thought I'd be good at making logarithm tables by hand.
- hsjrbabdv_dbdbd 7y agoWe have several elevator operators in our building. They sit at desks in the service lifts and manage entry for people who don’t have card access to the resident lifts.
- symplee 7y agoWe therefore need to reverse the technological progress that made these jobs obsolete in order to create more jobs for obsolete workers.
- malkia 7y agoImagine an RPG game, set in magical industrial Victorian era with lots of these characters playing these roles... A broomsquire that you can upgrade to squire, or a Dahomey Amazon! Man...
- anon73044 7y agoDishonored took quite a bit of this actually.
- Bilters 7y agoA lamplighter is still employed by the city of Wroclaw. So the job is not 100% obsolete but rather extremely rare.
- mcv 7y agoI think "obsolete" doesn't mean "extinct", but "not necessary anymore". Lamplighters are not necessary anymore. The kind of lamps that require one are obsolete and have usually been replaced by more modern lamps. But you can still hold on to an obsolete profession, item or technology out of nostalgia or tradition.
- ptsneves 7y agoReally? I live in Wroclaw and cannot recall any non electric lamps. Would you care to elaborate?
- Bilters 7y agoSure; Last year I visited the place, at the cathedral island the lamps are lighted every evening.[1] It's a great sight, the guy walks fast, so if you want to make a beautiful photo you have to be quick. [1] https://www.getyourguide.com/wroclaw-l2036/wroclaw-cathedral-island-and-lamplighter-tour-t320638/ https://www.getyourguide.com/wroclaw-l2036/wroclaw-cathedral...
- DonaldFisk 7y agoThere's a photo of him on the Lamplighter Wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamplighter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamplighter
- ravenstine 7y ago> Peddler Uh... peddlers still exist. Ever go to a holiday festival or parade? There's always peddlers slinging shiny, spinny, glowy, useless doo-dads. Anyone who's lived in California has seen roadside peddlers trying to sell flowers, oranges, avocados, etc. Seems peddling is alive and well.
- Anarch157a 7y agoThe linked article itself contadicts the list by showing several examples of modern peddleers. Pretty much every large city in tge world is filled with them. That's a profession that will exists for as long as humanity does.
- bsza 7y agoMissing from the list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garden_hermit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garden_hermit
- ragebol 7y agoThat is on the list (not added since your comment): I was just reading that in utter amazement.
- Qwertystop 7y agoI saw that in Pratchett's _Snuff_; I thought it was a joke, an exaggeration!
- auiya 7y agoAlso missing from the list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milkman https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milkman
- cyorir 7y agoThere are still dairy companies that will deliver fresh milk directly to a consumer's door! Although I expect most such "milkman" services to be subsumed into more general grocery delivery services.
- cletus 7y agoSo in researching my family tree I came across an occupation I’d never heard of, doesn’t exist anymore and isn’t in this list: scutcher. What is that? Someone who separates linen fibers from flax seeds, a job quite literally replaced by the industrial revolution. It makes me wonder if in another 200 years how many jobs will be looked at in the same way. Hopefully, a lot.
- bregma 7y agoA scutcher separates the bast fibers from the flax. It's the job of a thresher to separate the seeds from the flax chaff. They're two different jobs, and you can only scutch after retting and breaking but if you ret the flax, you can't thresh any more.
- PTOB 7y agoThe entire linen-making process is shown here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFuj7sXVnIU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFuj7sXVnIU
- saalweachter 7y agoTo bring 'round to programming, will "Fortran programmer" be on that list? C, Java, Python, LISP programmer? "Programmer?"
- sandGorgon 7y agoI would like to add one from the gin world. Ramos Gin Fizz or the New Orleans Gin Fizz is a drink that needs to be shaken for a seriously long time to get its tall structure. In the 1880s, there used to be "shaker boys" just for shaking the gin fizz - https://lettersandliquor.com/14-RAMOS-GIN-FIZZ-1880s https://lettersandliquor.com/14-RAMOS-GIN-FIZZ-1880s
- PaulRobinson 7y agoLists like these on Wikipedia drive me crazy. As others have pointed out, there are still footmen, peddlers, Mudlarks (the recently published book about it is great by the way), nursemaids, troubadors and even arguably privateers working away in the World today. Their numbers may be fewer, their fortunes and status somewhat smaller, but they haven't disappered. Some have also pointed out that in many cases the role exists, it's just the name and nature of the job that has changed slightly over time. So then we come to the definition of "obsolete", and it's this which prevents me from editing the list and removing these: I would argue "no longer used" does not apply, and somebody else would argue they are "out of date", which arguably is true. The community at Wikipedia is not a friendly one to engage with in such debates, IME - it's defensive, cliquey and closed. As a newcomer, there is a good chance I'd end up losing the argument. So, I don't edit Wikipedia. Ever. What they have produced is in the whole, remarkable. However, lists like this make me sad as they remind me of the closed shop nature of being able to contribute.
- DanBC 7y agoA core feature of wikipedia is "no original research". It doesn't matter whether you think these occupations are obsolete or not. It only matters if someone else thought it, and wrote it down, and then got it published in a reliable source. At that point a wikipedia editor can add the occupation to the list. It's a bizarre system because there are large cultural around fact-checking in different media in different countries, so there's a load of opinion that's now in Wikipedia because it got published somewhere else.
- ghaff 7y agoOne of the ironies of Wikipedia is that concepts like "notability" and "no original research" tend to be adjudicated, in no small part when they are, by publication in non-digital form. (Which, I assume, no one actually physically checks much of the time.)
- colejohnson66 7y agoThis has always made me wonder: could one make up fake quotes and “cite” them out of an old book?
- sthottingal 7y agoWeb developer - an obsolete occupation?!
- de_watcher 7y agoYou mean spider?
- narag 7y agoHoplite. No shit.
- ilaksh 7y agoSoon to be added: truck driver, data entry clerk, etc. Beyond that, people don't realize how powerful AI actually is and how close we are to making it general purpose. AI can already automatically create functions for just about anything given enough data. The only real problem is that it generally provides a shallow and entangled understanding of the world. But it _can_ automatically create an understanding. So what they are working on is creating a better factored and more accurate representation of the world automatically. In a way this is a matter of degree of performance. You have basically a Manhattan Project scale effort at this. All of the Turing Award winners, many geniuses at companies like Deep Mind, Open AI, Microsoft, Tencent, Baidu. Also John Carmack. Plus thousands of enthusiasts who have access to most of the same research which is posted on arxiv and the same core open source tools. It's strange to me how many people expect all of these geniuses (and largely working together by sharing research openly) to continue to fail for the next 30-40 years.
- purplezooey 7y agoWhat do you mean obsolete, I've got an Alewife right here next to me.
- mcv 7y agoThat one struck me too. Ale and beer are still being made, and I'm sure there are plenty of women doing that. Still, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alewife_(trade) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alewife_(trade) is mostly about the historical and outdated notions of the trade. In the distant past, many trades were seen as either male or female trades, and brewer is one that started out as a trade for women, and later became a trade specifically for men (before finally, in modern times, opening up to everybody). It's really the notion that professions need to be for a specific gender that's obsolete here.
- baxtr 7y agoMy favorite is the "knocker-up"! A knocker-up, sometimes known as a knocker-upper, was a profession in Britain and Ireland that started during and lasted well into the Industrial Revolution, when alarm clocks were neither cheap nor reliable, and to as late as the beginning of the 1920s. A knocker-up's job was to rouse sleeping people so they could get to work on time. from Wikipedia
- cpach 7y agoSome mornings I could really find use for that kind of services.
- myself248 7y agoBe VERY careful in how you word that Craigslist gigs posting.
- fanf2 7y agoI’m slightly surprised that the Wikipedia page doesn’t mention that the term “knocking up” is still used by political campaigners in the context of rousing people to vote if they have asked to be reminded early on election day.
- Sharlin 7y agoThis reminds me of one of the tasks that was traditionally assigned to the church carekeeper, or sacristan[1], in Finland (Finnish: suntio): to poke dozing churchgoers with a long stick to keep them awake during a mass! [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacristan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacristan
- C1sc0cat 7y agoIts also a political term in the UK. On the day of the election checking your known supporters have voted is still called "knocking up"
- auiya 7y agoOur political leaders in the US attempt to knock-up all their constituents as well, but to a much different effect.
- yetihehe 7y agoHmm, seems like 'hetaira' is still not obsolete occupation.
- zoul 7y ago“Useful man”! So it’s official now.
- rgrs 7y agoyou mean the intern right?
- vortico 7y agoMissing: jQuery developer
- mywacaday 7y agoA dark one https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baby_farming https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baby_farming
- ninguem2 7y agoAre there still typists?
- stebann 7y agoYes. In some countries of South America we have typists for transcribing litigations in the legal system. Of course we also have cameras and voice recorders,but transcriptions are done faster with typists.
- bitfhacker 7y agoIn the past weekend I saw the movie "Lisbon Story". The main character was a "sound maker" for movies that were filmed with no sound (I don't know the right term). His job consisted in reproduce the sounds of, for example, a water splashing sound, a horse running, an egg frying, a pigeon flapping his wings trying to eat...
- Stratoscope 7y agoFoley Artist https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foley_(filmmaking) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foley_(filmmaking)
- calt 7y agoThis is still done. The incidental sounds you hear in movies are often (or almost entirely?) dubbed after the fact, and are not from the microphones on the filming set.
- Xophmeister 7y agohttps://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foley_(filmmaking) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foley_(filmmaking)
- dxemy 7y agoIf I wanted to make up an article for laughs, this would be a good category.
- tyingq 7y ago"Baby Farmer" is listed there as people that take on children solely for the purpose of making money. That's a common complaint about the foster care industry in the US. Not sure that one is obsolete just yet.
- Jemm 7y agoIs Ninja really and obsolete occupation or is that just the ultimate a Ninja move.
- kolla 7y agoI think they just finally perfected themselves with the ultimate Ninja move.
- Anarch157a 7y agoExcept for the social structures of the old clans, I like to think that the ninja traditions are alive and well in the espionage business of today, especially in black ops teams.
- DonaldFisk 7y agoWhile they were still used, my mother was a Comptometer operator. https://www.jaapsch.net/mechcalc/comptometer.htm https://www.jaapsch.net/mechcalc/comptometer.htm To use one required, for operations more complex than addition (e.g. division), an understanding of arithmetic algorithms - similar to those used in a CPU, except in decimal.
- neiman 7y agoSoon to be obsolete: a driver.
- JoeAltmaier 7y agoMy wife claims 'Editor' should be on the list. When word processors got invented, editing tanked since everybody now thinks they can compose and edit for themselves. Leading to the appalling state of printed literacy we have.
- ur-whale 7y agoHere's a neat one: "Computer (job description)"
- Merrill 7y agoBased on recent discussions here, "keypunch operator" should be added to the list.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- avaku 7y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soda_jerk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soda_jerk -- sounds like a modern smoothy barista :) not obsolete at all!
- MEGMAIL 7y agoYikes -- this one is insane. A priest hunter was a person who, acting on behalf of the British government, spied on or captured Catholic priests during Penal Times.
- arbitrary_name 7y agoProbably should bring that one back to be honest...
- cafard 7y agoI don't know whether anyone calls them that any longer, but the work of the "gandy dancer" has not gone away. There is a union now pat of the Teamsters, the Brotherhood of Maintenance of Way Employees: https://www.bmwe.org/default.aspx https://www.bmwe.org/default.aspx
- bradezone 7y agoLink-boys FTW