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How does Apple get away with this UI?
- java-man 7y ago"you don't own it" hilarious.
- wodenokoto 7y agoThe most infuriating of those are the “turn auto update on” Actually the worst part is that if you prolong it long enough it will install. But, Ueah, how do they get away with it? It’s just something you live with. I guess this is like how people just resigned to keeping the IE toolbars in the nineties.
- babypuncher 7y agoIt's possible to block updates from the terminal, but it is intentionally made obtuse because regular end users shouldn't be deferring updates indefinitely.
- marssaxman 7y agoThis irritated me so much that I disabled "OSXNotification.bundle". No more popups.
- mthoms 7y agoHow does one do this? Does it disable all notifications?
- dmix 7y agoAs someone replied in the twitter thread a better solution is to run: > sudo softwareupdate --ignore "macOS Catalina" This turns off MacOS upgrade notifications, instead of turning off all notifications.
- oblosys 7y agoFor me that didn't work. The red badge on System Preferences disappeared, but it came back the next day. Doing a `defaults delete com.apple.preferences.softwareupdate LatestMajorOSSeenByUserBundleIdentifier` got rid of it permanently.
- dmix 7y agoSorry I missed the second half, I fixed my comment: > sudo softwareupdate --ignore "macOS Catalina" It uses the label in the software update catalog to filter out specific updates. You can get rid of it with: > sudo softwareupdate --reset-ignored
- blueberry_47 7y agoI thought that was a joke for some reason!
- baddox 7y agoI'm not sure why people seem to think this is related to Catalina. This popup has appeared nearly every day for years. I'm pretty sure it shows up for any minor system updates, not just major version upgrades.
- plorkyeran 7y agoI want to be notified of new security updates that need to be installed. The problem is that it's now appearing every day even if there aren't any.
- closetohome 7y agoI blocked their update server with Little Snitch. Similar effect.
- m463 7y agoI did that too. Little Snitch is a wonderful app (although I suspect it lets DNS lookups through)
- sneak 7y agoNot applying security updates puts you at risk. It is in your best interest to make all of the paths lead to eventually reminding you again to update. Nothing forces you to update, it will just remind you again that you need to.
- trevyn 7y agoCatalina is not a security update.
- Gaelan 7y agoPretty sure that’s not the UI for major version updates.
- pwinnski 7y agoFalse. That is exactly the interface on my computer, which leads directly to the upgrade to Catalina interface. I can ignore that, and install only security updates instead, but that is indeed the UI for the update to Catalina.
- susijdjdjxa 7y agoIf you install the security updates, so only the Catalina install is pending, do you still get this UI?
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- camgunz 7y agoI really wish Apple would figure out how to update my machine without making me turn it off.
- java-man 7y agoAll modern OSs were designed in the 80s, with limitations and mind set shaped by the hardware limitations. Since then there was no major rethink of the OS architecture, I think.
- hailwren 7y agoThis is just wrong. Operating Systems are an area of extensive ongoing research. New and wonky OS's are coming out all the time (Hurd, nix, Qubes, etc). Even macOS itself is being overhauled pretty frequently (i.e. APFS, whole disk encryption, etc etc)
- felipelemos 7y agoHurd is still "under development" since 1990, so it came out 30 years ago. Not something that I would call new.
- java-man 7y agoSorry, I should have said "mainstream OSs", meaning Linux, Mac OS X, Windows. Case in point - though not a topic of this particular discussion, neither of the three were designed with security in mind. Most of the security features are, in my opinion, bolt-on afterthoughts. This is just my opinion though.
- zadkey 7y agoYes operating systems are in active development and research. For major companies that are profit-driven such as Apple or Microsoft, operating system development takes a major backseat as these companies have already carved out a sizable market share and don't need to invest much to maintain their dominance as they have self-sustaining app ecosystems for their OS which continue to draw users reliably. Sure there are people innovating everyday in operating system development like with Haiku and Redox. Many Linux and UNIX distros are very active as well. But for the major players, it's low priority, as it gives low return to shareholders. Which means the overwhelming majority of users won't benefit from most of these new innovations until they become sufficiently innovative that they become incredibly enticing (likely to expand the market share of a major player) or become either a market threat to a major player by being enticing to app developers leading to a them developing their own self-sustaining ecosystem of apps which draws users away from major players thus creating meaningful competition.
- cr0sh 7y agoThe thing I hate most about Apple's updates is that if you say "try again in an hour", rather than prompting you if you want to update again, it just starts the update! My PB is supplied by my employer, so I'm using it all the time in the daytime. Sometimes I have time to do the update, but sometimes I don't - but I might anticipate that I can come to a stopping point in an hour or two. But I don't get that option. If I say "wait an hour" - it will just start the update in an hour - killing my browser and tabs, my IDE, my terminal sessions, whatever else I have open... Hosed isn't the right word for it - fortunately IntelliJ allows me to continue where I left off, and getting my tabs back is no problem in most browsers. Terminal sessions are jacked, though. And just getting back to where you were mindset-wise - that's a major pain (it's one thing when it's on your terms, but when the rug is yanked out from under you, it becomes a real problem). Ubuntu (and probably other Debian-based Linux systems - and maybe all of them - so many distros I haven't tried or haven't played with in a long while - sigh) does it right - if you say to try again later, it will pop up the same dialog later. Most security updates aren't of the nature that waiting an hour or a day is going to be a major issue (and if it were, we generally are informed well ahead of time of it). So - I can understand and feel everyone's pain on this; Apple really should change this to allow user choice. Heck - I'd also love options to install "at next shutdown", "at next powerup", and "at a set time/day" - because at the end of the day, when I shutdown my machine, that would actually be the best time to do the install/update (for me at least).
- saagarjha 7y ago> Terminal sessions are jacked, though. Interestingly, I protect against this by running iTerm, which asks me before quitting and prevents the shutdown.
- allovernow 7y ago> Terminal sessions are jacked, though Tmux might be useful for that.
- inetknght 7y agoI was going to recommend `tmux` as well. It won't help for _local_ terminal sessions but running `tmux` on any remote hosts has saved my bacon more times than I can count.
- wilg 7y agoThe best part is "Try Tonight" never actually works.
- saagarjha 7y agoThere's a set of conditions you need to fulfill, probably involving being connected to power in some way.
- cactus2093 7y agoThis really seems like a fixable problem, if my laptop is in sleep mode in my backpack overnight but > 70% battery, why can't it still install the update overnight? PS4 is also laughably bad at this. It's been sitting there, plugged in and connected to internet for 6 months, in rest mode and not completely powered off. But it'll wait until I finally try to play a game to force me to download and install 50GB of updates right then.
- inetknght 7y ago> This really seems like a fixable problem, if my laptop is in sleep mode in my backpack overnight but > 70% battery, why can't it still install the update overnight? Yes, that way you can wake up with a 20% battery. Just enough to power it on and get all kinds of warnings about how there's not enough power left to run things.
- president 7y agoI remember this was one of the things that made people switch to Apple from Microsoft around ~2006. Looks like Apple is turning into Microsoft now.
- ProAm 7y agoApple is in it's Microsoft ME phase of life.
- jonplackett 7y agoAre you sure it’s not Vista already?
- mthoms 7y agoI've been pressing "Remind me tomorrow" every. single. day. for the 31 days since Catalina has been released. I'm waiting for 10.15.2 (which thankfully, appears to be right around the corner). Edit: 10.15.2 appears to be available as of this moment. Though release notes don't appear to be up yet(?)
- pwagland 7y agoIndeed, I just installed 10.15.2. :-)
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- pazimzadeh 7y agoYou can uncheck "Install macOS updates" in System Preferences: https://imgur.com/BbDLlYy https://imgur.com/BbDLlYy
- mthoms 7y agoI have done so. I still get the daily notification.
- irskep 7y agoYou can do this to disable those notifications: sudo softwareupdate --ignore "macOS Catalina"
- strangelove026 7y agoOh interesting! I looked into making a mac "automator" shortcut that hid notifications on a specific key press, but didn't end up following through
- cpeterso 7y agoThe Twitter thread says there is a `sudo softwareupdate --ignore "macOS Catalina"` command.
- dfabulich 7y agoThey are pushing macOS Catalina pretty hard, but this pop-up is just pushing you to the Software Update control panel. There, you'll find that while the most prominent option is to upgrade to Catalina, there's a teeny tiny link to install other updates, which is where you can (and should) get critical updates for macOS Mojave. https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT210788 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT210788 Today's Dec 10 update addresses a kernel vulnerability, CVE-2019-8847. All users should get this update, but click carefully to make sure you don't accidentally try to upgrade to Catalina.
- hanche 7y agoOh, that's so astoundingly bad, it blows my mind! In effect, they are actively hindering users who don't (yet) want to upgrade to Catalina from discovering security upgrades. Surely, that cannot be their intention?
- iscoelho 7y agoI'm not sure what this means. They released an update for a previous version intentionally to allow them to resolve security upgrades. That does not sound like hindering users. The UI is clear. The notification is clear. Catalina only will install if you specifically ask it to install. Notifications for Catalina are distinct from Software Upgrades (they are two different notifications). I do not understand people who assume the worst without even seeing it for themselves. Some people just want a bit of drama in their life.
- ipqk 7y agoThe UI is not clear at all. I don't want to update Catalina for the time being and the "other updates" option is small and hardly noticeable and clearly being mostly hidden in order to get people to update to Catalina. I definitely missed the option the first couple times.
- hanche 7y agoIn my experience, I only get a rather generic notification for software updates. When I click on it, I wind up in System Preferences, Software Update. And that displays the Catalina update very prominently, then in a much smaller font, “Other updates are available” with a “More info” link. Only after I click the latter, do I learn about the security update for Mojave. After having been pestered about Catalina for quite some time, obviously my response is to close the window without looking further. If it weren't for the current discussion thread, I would still not know about this security update. This is why I called it hindering users. (Not sure how your final comment applies here.)
- settsu 7y agoMicrosoft and Apple are unlikely to ever make this as easy as flipping a UI switch at this point. It'd be careless to provide a simple means of allowing a mainstream user to effectively disable the delivery of security patches.
- Mirioron 7y agoIs it actually true? Are the updates really for security and that these companies care about our security so much that they're willing to create a really bad user experience? My dad has an old machine now that is essentially unusable due to updates. The machine is used rarely enough that almost any time it is used some of the software (Windows, the browser or something else) wants to and automatically updates. The problem is that you cannot do anything for 15+ minutes when that machine updates. I guess it keeps him secure by discouraging him from using the computer in the first place.
- settsu 7y agoIdeally? No. Inevitably? Probably. An operating system is software. Most software eventually stops being updated. Microsoft has historically done a pretty reasonable job at delivering security patches to old versions of Windows but that eventually ends. Apple tends to EOL their OS updates relatively sooner but they will still sign security patches for older versions at times. Your dad's computer may continue to be technically operable but will inevitably become functionally obsolete. It's unfortunate but it happens. Automobiles that required leaded gas to run right might be a good analog here: you could/can keep them running, but at what cost. Leaded gas was a known health danger so the benefits in that regard were clear, but also look at the advances that have been made in internal combustion engines since leaded gasoline was phased out. Likewise, an old computer (namely one that is connected to the internet) becomes a risk and Microsoft does not have the impetus to continue supporting it. And this is the point when the suggestion to install a friendly version of Linux is made. But frankly I'm not sure I'd even go to that trouble before reviewing what your dad's needs actually are and considering other devices that may actually be a better solution for the time and money.
- brootstrap 7y agoI have just accepted this as part of my daily routine now alongside other great staples such as daily standup, email checking, checking logs, slack, etc.
- hostcontroller 7y agosudo softwareupdate --ignore "macOS Catalina"
- Solvitieg 7y agoWould you guys prefer we go back to the day where browsers weren't automatically updated? Oh but that's different right?
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- logicallee 7y agoIt is different, yes. Sometimes OS upgrades delete your mail: https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/apple-mail-app-catalina-wipes-deletes-email/ https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/apple-mail-app-catal... So that's the world we live in. However I think you have a very good point and silent updates are an okay end-game, as they are with browsers. The stakes are very high, as they are with browsers. With browsers, here are the table stakes with auto updates: a silent update without a prompt could introduce a security issue to all users - web sites are untrusted and can send any html they want to browsers. Users browse websites they don't trust all the time. They click links willy nilly. I could put in any URL into this comment and you would click it, since you know you are on latest Chrome or Firefox and you know any zero day would be patched. You view HTML across a very hard security sandbox. So browser security issues could be instant p0wnage, and keeping everyone always updated introduces a huge baddie incentive on each latest update. There's no chance to fix it if everyone gets it. The update mechanism also needs to be harder than Fort Knox. I imagine the infrastructure for Chrome's update role outs has 10,000 human hours of security hours spent on it. The stakes are even higher with operating systems, though: people run local applications they may rely on and which could break. Here it is not so much security as functionality. The software was written against and tested against a certain version. A new version can behave differently. Software can't adapt to that, it's not live. With web sites, at least it's always being served. If it renders weird in latest chrome or firefox, there's a good chance it will get fixed. (The main reason for this would be if it wasn't compliant to begin with.) Web sites are always actively being served. If they're "dead" they're offline. Software running locally is already there. It may or may not be updated. It could be dead but people still use it. So the models are different but with very high stakes in each case.
- TurkishPoptart 7y agoYes. I am tired of updating and my 2015 MBP getting slower with whatever software they add to make it intentionally bloated and slower. Planned obsolescence is not a conspiracy theory. It's a real thing: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/oct/24/apple-samsung-fined-for-slowing-down-phones https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/oct/24/apple-sam...
- qmmmur 7y agoIn your opinion when is a good version to roll back to?
- dzhiurgis 7y agoI keep a list of shit like this: - [ ] Fix FaceTime audio ducking BS - [ ] Add screen sharing to FaceTime - [ ] VP9 decoder in Safari - [ ] Make Puck.app part of macOS - [ ] Make iMessage search actually useful - [ ] Tree style tabs (like that FF extension) - [ ] Safari profiles - [ ] A protocol to link profiles (tab A in iTerm opens links in profile A, emails from email account B opens links in profile B) - [ ] Improve Preview reliability - [ ] Make screenshots save faster - [ ] Something to announce that my charger is plugged but not charging (happens once a week - you realise you've got 2% battery left when everything slows down massively) - [ ] Something to stop Mail opening main window when there's some letters already open (aka behave like every other mac app) - [ ] Zoom on email when composing - [ ] Solve Mail app performance (3k of emails shouldn't take 5 seconds to render on i9) - [ ] Spell checker is pretty bad - [ ] Reliable way to disable dedicated GPU (and a 15" MBP model without it - most devs don't need it, but I understand devs aren't target market anyway) - [ ] This checklist was made with Notes app, which I starting to love, but pasting this list back doesn't parse as a checklist - [ ] Unsure if it's macOS or iOS bug, but it's been like that for years - storing Mom or Dad in contacts get's converted into Mom Lastname or Dad Lastname. Trying to use Siri "Call Dad" results in "I can't find a number for 'Dad Lastname' in your contacts, would you like to search instead?". - [ ] Contacts adds invisible characters when copy/pasting phone numbers - [ ] Can't change audio input without disconnecting bluetooth speaker (while on FaceTime) - [ ] Siri Announce can't tell apart english messages from non-english so it just reads out this madness - [ ] 2 letters missing from keyboard in my language (confirmed "working as intended" by Apple) - [ ] Can't share iCloud data with family who lives in different country
- ben_w 7y agoTo add to your list: * When rebooting after an update, Chrome tabs will begin auto-playing YouTube videos around ten seconds before I enter my password to log in. * Number of unread items != number shown next to “Unread” in Mail.app != number shown in red dot over Mail.app icon * Step count and distance reported by Activity.app != values reported by Health.app * Reminders.app does not in fact remind me of anything, ever * Unable to have multiple simultaneous timers running in Clock.app, unlike Android equivalent * Un-deleteable duplicate entries in Calendar.app * Maps.app keeps reverting to driving instructions (I don’t own a car) * If I am listening to my phone or tablet through Bluetooth headphones, and an alarm goes off, the alarm first silences the headphones and then comes out of the phone or tablet instead Some are macOS issues, others are iOS, but they’re all problems.
- q845712 7y agoI recall that OSX used to let me select which updates, and I was always happy to explicitly allow security updates while skipping the latest versions of all the things i don't use, and also skipping unwanted OS upgrades. IMO the worst thing they did for security was making it impossible to distinguish between security patches, Garage Band releases, and UX changes.
- breatheoften 7y agoThere are so many huge UI fails in Apple products nowadays ... My most recent encounter is pretty much anything to do with Apple Pay (especially on the mac). I couldn't get any transactions to complete. Ended up being that my address didn't validate (apparently) because it was 'too long' -- good luck figuring that out via the (horrific) Apple Pay address form edit UI ...
- goldcd 7y agoTo be fair, I had a pretty similar problem with Google Pay yesterday. The handy "google pay" button just sent me on a loop to fix my address, I did, it accepted, then rejected on pay as there was "an issue with my address" - tried 3 times before just nuking my address, re-entering it (I swear the same details) and then it was accepted. Maybe random co-incidence, or maybe common card back-end was having a wobble.
- Someone1234 7y agoApple Pay story: We had a credit card on the account that was expired by months and thrown away. We couldn't delete the old card because it was the default[0], and we couldn't add a new card to make the default without entering the last digits of the old (which we no longer had). We also couldn't cancel a subscription without the last digits. Ultimately found a work-around by going to the accounts website and adding the new card from a family plan member (which didn't require the last digits of the old on the main account holder's account) and then cahnging the default and deleting the old. But it wasn't documented anywhere. [0] https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT203905 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT203905
- Rebelgecko 7y agoFunnily enough, I've had a ton of UI problems with Apple's new bug report tool (https://feedbackassistant.apple.com/ https://feedbackassistant.apple.com/). Depending on your screen resolution/window size, it can be impossible to submit a bug report using Firefox or the Android version of Chrome.
- wayneftw 7y agoIt's not just nowadays, it's always been that way all the way back to the first Mac OS. I work with a lot of Mac users and just watching them trying to manage application windows is painful. Ever since they replaced maximize with full-screen - whenever someone wants to click near the top of the window, I make a bet with myself whether they're going to miss the mark and cause the menubar to drop down or not.
- rubyn00bie 7y agoThis is hardly as bad as Windows 10 where I was quite literally given a prompt (full screen modal, couldn't close) for a system update that said: "Restart Now" and "Ok" Guess what "Ok" did? Restarted the fucking machine, but _not_ right away... no, it waited about ten minutes before randomly performing the update during a game I was playing.
- bazinga2019 7y agoThis is a discussion on Apple's macOS. Not sure what mentioning Windows does (unless it somehow makes you feel better).
- unethical_ban 7y agoThis is either an alternate account, or you're new here. Discussions can branch to the underlying theme of a link, like "UI for updates" and "system security updates being forced or not".
- mrlala 7y agoEven though he is delusional in how windows updates work- to be fair it seems pertinent to compare updates to other OS's.. you can't just complain about how apple updates in a bubble without considering what other companies do.
- mrlala 7y agoThat's not how windows updates work at all so either you are just making shit up or your memory is terrible.
- frostyj 7y agoIPhone is worse. Whenever there is a new version update, now you have to update it or there will be a popup window the whole time, day and night, even when using other apps. Annoying AF
- luxuryballs 7y agoReally? I always have to go hunt to Settings to trigger my updates. Got a screenshot? Maybe I’m pwnd by the man...
- hombre_fatal 7y agoYeah, never noticed that either across my two iPhones. I just notice that the System Settings icon has a red dot and will run the update when I have time.
- luxuryballs 7y agoSo maybe the other guy is the one who is NSA pwned...
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 7y agoI will be the first to jump on Apple but why would you turn off updates entirely?
- Rebelgecko 7y agoThe Catalina "upgrade" breaks a lot of things, and for me the things it breaks are much more important than the new features(?) that I'd get
- crazygringo 7y agoThis is silly. If you click anywhere on the notification it brings you to the "Software Update" preferences dialog where "Advanced..." lets you uncheck "Check for updates". There are a bunch of options, actually, for very granular control, like whether to download in advance or not. And here's the thing... this is good UI, because... Like herd immunity, I want everyone to be installing security updates as soon as convenient to prevent malware from spreading. What is shown are exactly what the easy, default options should be. But if you're an informed consumer and have specific reasons to disable updates, then "Advanced..." is exactly the place to put it.
- plorkyeran 7y agoUnchecking "Check for updates" does not make this stop appearing every day if you aren't running Catalina because they conflate notifications for new major OS versions and for security updates.
- jdmg94 7y agoas commented on the same thread "...Windows will literally just install them and make your pc restart if you wait too long." generally speaking, you should install updates at least for security's sake
- ungzd 7y agoBTW, a website with similar nasty UI aspects: https://grumpy.website/ https://grumpy.website/ (I'm not affiliated with this)
- jbj 7y agoI got enough of that reminder and upgraded to catalina. after this was done I could not ise microsoft office, to which I have a license key. An "update" to office 365 was promted, to which I also accepted .... turns out office 365 is a subscription based product. as a user with some knowledge of open source alternatives I dont see why these two corporations are lowering the incentive for me to keep using their products, at one point it will just be easier to boot something like manjaro or ubuntu from the hardware and get rid of reminders and subscription offers. I am actually open for HN users suggestions for an OS replacement for an MBP from late 2013
- egfx 7y agoIt’s even worse with the sign in with your Apple ID toaster. There is no remind me later option that at least hides the toaster so you can continue with your work. You have to click view and enter into the modal.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- dismalpedigree 7y agoI would pay money for an application that adds a “fuck off” button to this UI. Hides the prompt for a week. I swear it only comes up when I am in the middle of something. I have fallen for the dark pattern of delayed install a few times and it is maddening. I update my software fairly frequently, but not every damn day.
- jonplackett 7y agoThere’s another one they have like this, I think it was in iTunes It says something like: Do you want to update iOS. It then has a YES and a CANCEL but also a check box to say don’t ask again, but it it only pays any attention to the checkbox if you click YES for this time. Cancel just closes the dialogue and does nothing. Dark patterns.