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Powerful Statement of Resistance from a College Student on Trial in Moscow
- nopriorarrests 7y agoThe problem here is Gessen uses Zhukov's words to bash Donald Trump, but neglects to mention that Zhukov is a right-winger who supports Trump, and the Tea Party. He's also anti-feminist & new yorker readers would feel differently if they knew these things. It's disingenuous. https://twitter.com/27khv/status/1203785706860109830 https://twitter.com/27khv/status/1203785706860109830
- baybal2 7y agoTell me what is your political position
- microcolonel 7y agoProbably in the broad category of “feminism is untouchable, even when it is inconsistent with women's rights”. It's a direct copy of a tweet though, so maybe a different person.
- scandox 7y agoIf you're quoting someone you should indicate that. If you're quoting Bryan MacDonald well I think you should validate it pretty carefully. And if you are Bryan MacDonald...well I'm not surprised how you turned out Bryan.
- nopriorarrests 7y agoYes, I'am quoting Bryan MacDonald, sorry if it wasn't clear. And since I speak russian, I can attest that his tweet is factually correct.
- scandox 7y agoWell even a stopped clock tells the right time twice a day.
- kelvich 7y agoWell, there is a video where Zhukov tells that he doesn't agree with principle of collective responsibility advocated by _some_ feminists. Calling him anti-feminist after that is kind of big jump, isn't it?
- nopriorarrests 7y agohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILuxlimdWoc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILuxlimdWoc this is a part of his interview called "there is no such thing as patriarchy". He says following things: -- Jordan Peterson is essentially correct in most of things he says. -- Current left wing is all about collective identity (such as "straight white man"), and there is no such thing as "collective identity". -- This is absolutely unacceptable for me, and I do not believe in patriarchy at all. Basically, he is your run of the mill right-winger with libertarian bent, nothing special about him, but his anti-feminist stance is pretty clear. I think that he and Ben Shapiro will find common ground in a minute.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- Supermancho 7y agoI'm not sure how you get "right winger" out of someone who doesn't believe in identity politics. I'm basically a socialist christian who voted for Trump (but will go Bernie next time), but I'm not into equality of outcome between social segments. Am I supposed to be right wing because I don't subscribe to liberal attempts at equality of outcome (between socially delineated groups)?
- krastanov 7y agoI have never seen a mainstream liberal to push "equality of outcome" ideas. I have seen liberals push for detailed understanding of what leads to different outcomes and for "equality of opportunity". And I have seen only far right people bring up the notion of "equality of outcome", usually as a strawman as above. And yes, being against the government helping with upward social mobility (the only way I can rephrase what you described, but I sincerely hope you will correct me if I misunderstood) is certainly part of modern American right wing politics.
- 80386 7y agoThe BBC describes Zhukov as a "libertarian activist": https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-50684676 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-50684676
- kelvich 7y agoBut note that journalist who wrote that tweet is actually works for Russia Today -- russian state propaganda outlet. So don't take that seriously.
- AndrewBissell 7y agoIs the tweet correct or not? Is your point here that - Zhukov is not actually a Tea Party Trump supporter and the tweet is made up, or - Zhukov is all these things but it would not in fact be relevant to New Yorker readers, or - Zhukov is all these things, but the facts should be ignored because they are coming from an unapproved source?
- kelvich 7y agoI was just saying that collaboration with RT is a big red flag. Talking about tweet itself it's definitely not correct at least in anti-feminist part. Also whole tweet intention is kind of ad hominem, original article discussed Zhukov's speech and his sentence, not his personality.
- jsnk 7y ago> I was just saying that collaboration with RT is a big red flag How come?
- nirv 7y agoIt comes from the consistent history of the factually incorrect propaganda reporting, with direct funding from the state budget. The very same state that dictates convictions to judges for political prisoners upon a phone call from the state administration.
- chr1 7y agoTurns out even people who work for Russia Today tell the truth sometimes (if they were consistently lying they would be telling the truth after all:). I have watched Zhukovs videos before he got arrested, he self identifies as a libertarian, supports Trump as a lesser evil compared to Sanders and Warren, and likes Jordan Peterson. Because of this Russian twitter was abuzz today with feminists arguing whether it was ok to support him. So the article indeed misrepresents his views.
- m0zg 7y agoIt's also par for the course for Gessen. She's extremely biased, and she doesn't even try to hide it. There's no nuance whatsoever in what she writes, it's all black and white for her. I'm not sure why she still calls herself a "jornalist". His statement, however, looks like something a US conservative would largely agree with: decries identity (in his words "atomization") politics (which Gessen largely supports), calls to strengthen traditional families (which Gessen opposes), calls for individual responsibility, etc. For the record: I don't know about his "anti-feminist" views, but I agree with what he says in that particular statement. It's directly applicable to the US as well - people are pretty much at war with each other here, and at least half the population is quite willing to give up their liberty for taxpayer funded government handouts. Having grown up in the USSR, I know where this particular road ends. There's one bit of context that people in the US will miss: the Soviet legacy. Back then people relied on the government for _everything_ and had little to no individual responsibility for anything. You worked for peanuts and by Western standards lived in poverty, but a lot of the stuff was "free" and you didn't have to worry about your future - it was largely predetermined. A large, older chunk of Russian population still lives like that and has futile expectations that the government will solve whatever problems they might have. The government stopped doing that some 30 years ago, but they don't know any better. I think this, and the extreme level of corruption, is why the GDP of Russia is less than that of Texas. IMO for a country with such insane wealth of natural resources, and a pretty decent education system this is shameful.
- notfromhere 7y agoThe whole 'government doing anything is a slippery slope to socialism' is such a worn cliche. It's much more likely that having a large, disadvantaged population thats cut off from class mobility or basic life necessities is what encourages people to start dragging landowners into the streets. There's a reason why the Great Depression led to a number of relief programs - the threat of a soviet-style communist uprising was pretty high.
- m0zg 7y agoThere also were some pretty great "relief programs" in the USSR at the time, where millions of people were relieved of their food and left to die of starvation. A government powerful enough to give you everything is also necessarily powerful enough to take everything. And "class mobility" is a 100% capitalist concept. Under communism there's no "upper class" to be mobile to. As of 2018, the US is experiencing the lowest poverty rate in history (considerably lower than e.g. UK, Germany, and France), and record low unemployment as well. https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2019/09/10/us-poverty-rate-fell-lowest-since-while-uninsured-rate-rose-census-says/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2019/09/10/us-povert...
- woodandsteel 7y agoSo are you saying that because Zhukov is, you claim, a right-winger, that means that his criticisms of Russia are wrong, and that Russia is actually a pretty good place? Oh, and by the way, I don't know if Zhukov actually is a right winger, but Putin definitely is.
- nopriorarrests 7y agoNo, I just find it amusing that Masha Gessen is praising some person, who, if relocated to USA while keeping his political views intact, will instantly become alt-right monster and God knows what else (see Covington kids case). Funny how these things work.
- woodandsteel 7y agoThe question of how good or bad Russia is, is a million times more important than an amusing observation about a particular journalist. So let me ask you again, what do you think of it?
- nirv 7y ago> So are you saying that because Zhukov is, you claim, a right-winger, that means that his criticisms of Russia are wrong, and that Russia is actually a pretty good place? There is no causal connection between the OP's message and this assumption. The initial argument is that the journalist interpreted the Zhukov’s letter and his (right-wing libertarian) views in accordance with her political (left-wing and anti-Trump) views. edit: Putin is authoritarian right-wing, which has nothing to do with Zhukov's libertarianism. As follows at least from his indictment.
- qxnqd 7y agoSad that someone who is so pro-liberty thinks that Zhukov doesn't deserve liberty because he's a right-winger. I don't know what to make of something like that.
- larnmar 7y agoI found the speech very interesting, and the columnist’s attempt to twist it into relevance about his own hobbyhorse of US politics to be very boring. Russian politics is very interesting on its own, and we hear far too little about it (whilst also hearing far too much about US politics). The analogies between the two are extremely weak and generally uninformative; saying “my opponent is like Putin” carries no more information than “my opponent is a big poop face”.
- adamsea 7y agoThe common thread is corruption.
- baybal2 7y agoRussian politics? There are no such things since late nineties. Whatever "opposition" is left in Russia today, is no more real than the token opposition to the CPSU that legally existed in the Soviet Union. There is a long held Russian political tradition that long proceeded the creation of the Union: they pick the weakest enemy, the weakest opposition camp, and then surround them with spies, puppets, and then purposely let them show everybody their helpless, futile struggle. In comparison, all credible opponents to the CPSU was dealt with in the swiftest way, without even a token trial. They either met their demise from KGB's signature potato trucks, or simply "disappeared" Latin American style. The same was with modern Russia. The last credible, real opposition to MAFIA—KGB chimera was the Primakov-Lebed group. Lebed died in a helicopter crash, and Primakov, you know it. At the same time, KGB plotters didn't care the slightest about formal liberal opposition, because they knew that they were complete jokes, incapable of killing a fly. Nor Primakov, nor Lebed were even remotely "liberal." That fabled "Russian liberal opposition" only existed in the imagination of Western "Kremlinologists." Those "non-violent resistance" clowns brought demise not only on themselves, but all and everybody else who was capable of standing against resurgent KGB. Their last chance assassinating Putin expired right around 2005-2006, and you know what those clowns did back then? They said "we need to bring Putin to Hague...," few month later a wave of assassinations rolled over Russia
- notfromhere 7y ago
- cmroanirgo 7y agoPoliticking aside, I wish all the leaders in all the countries of the world held such ideals as this man. There's a lot to absorb, but the rising alcohol and domestic abuse due to despair is something that's increasing in my country too: oz. Mental health issues are skyrocketing. Our politicians ignore what we ask for, but propagandize what they think we need based on their corruption, while actively suppressing liberty. The middle class is almost gone... ... and we're widely regarded as being called the lucky country. By comparison to many less fortunate others we still are. Edit: typos
- qnsi 7y agoWhich country?
- tagawa 7y agooz = Australia
- manicdee 7y ago“The lucky country” refers to how we have managed to make it this far for a nation whose economy is primary production and debt. The term was originally intended as a criticism not a compliment.
- hnick 7y agoIt is far more. It is an indictment of Australia as an incurious (yet hardy) nation run by incurious people. It still adequately captures the state of our modern leadership. "Australia is a lucky country run mainly by second rate people who share its luck. It lives on other people's ideas, and, although its ordinary people are adaptable, most of its leaders (in all fields) so lack curiosity about the events that surround them that they are often taken by surprise."[1] Edit: Also as an aside, the quote originally didn't have anything to do with resources, though in modern times it makes sense to make that link. "When I invented the phrase in 1964 to describe Australia, I said: 'Australia is a lucky country run by second rate people who share its luck.' I didn't mean that it had a lot of material resources … I had in mind the idea of Australia as a [British] derived society whose prosperity in the great age of manufacturing came from the luck of its historical origins … In the lucky style we have never 'earned' our democracy. We simply went along with some British habits." [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lucky_Country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lucky_Country
- shmerl 7y agoIn Russia, there is no judicial system. Courts are simply rubber stamps for Putin run mafia, they do the bidding of the boss. So if repressive machine wants to crush someone, it would do it without hesitation, using hundreds of anti-social "laws" passed by the fascist Duma (parliament), that does the bidding of the same boss. Basically courts do nothing in practice, just pass "judgements" that are handed to them by the "investigators" or whoever relays the mafia command to them. And if the boss decides that public would react too much to the court case, the "judges" might suddenly become more lenient.
- testdummy 7y ago> Courts are simply rubber stamps for Putin run mafia You will see that in US too. Just watch Gorsuch and Kavanaugh do their masters bidding on issues like tax returns.
- kyrieeschaton 7y agoThe irony is pretty rich here, because Masha would be happy to see an identically situated American (ie, a libertarian with a flag of violent resistance to state tyranny expressing concern about demographic changes and attempting to form non-state mutual support networks) suffer a number of legal and extralegal consequences.
- chr1 7y ago> libertarian with a flag of violent resistance to state tyranny Perhaps you meant non-violent, because the whole court case that government was trying to fabricate was an attempt to accuse him in calls to violent protest, which was not true.
- AndrewBissell 7y agoThe OP is referring to the Gadsden Flag which Zhukov has used in videos.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- chr1 7y agoMany libertarians use it, and i can not find any place referring to it as a symbol of specifically violent resistance.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- lcall 7y agoI spent a small part of my life studying Russian language and history, as other family members have done with other cultures (or lived in them, etc etc). And regardless of where else we will agree or disagree, when anyone can sincerely talk like this young man did about love (meaning caring for others as much as for oneself) and personal responsibility (actually doing something about it, all of which I relate closely with honesty and the Golden Rule), I automatically think: "I would probably like knowing this person, and almost certainly we could enjoy working together on some worthwhile things." That is a political (or whatever) "tribe", as some say, that I would like to belong to.
- lcall 7y ago(fwiw, I have posted more about those thoughts at my simple site: http://lukecall.net http://lukecall.net . Use of https is on the to-do list...)
- mcsoft 7y agoThis guy's father worked for Russian government space agency, trained to be a cosmonaut. Now he's in the court watching the same government prosecute his son for political youtube videos. It is a disturbing sign when authorities press baseless charges against children of people who served their country their whole life.
- kortilla 7y ago> is a disturbing sign when authorities press baseless charges against children of people who served their country their whole life. As opposed to baseless charges against an ordinary citizen being ok?
- Ididntdothis 7y ago"It is a disturbing sign when authorities press baseless charges against children of people who served their country their whole life." The baseless charges are disturbing but if they have done something wrong it's also disturbing to NOT press charges against children of people who served their country their whole life. Which happens quite a bit.
- mcsoft 7y agoI had followed this case closely. Initially they accused a boy with directing crowds during Moscow protests on July 27, there was a video evidence. He was arrested and put into jail. Meanwhile prosecutors admitted that the guy on the video is not him. They let him go, he spent over a month in jail for no reason. They dropped initial charges but instead of begging his pardon, they brought totally different, unrelated charges of his blog content being extremist. While I agree your statement in general, in this particular case it all looks very thin and biased.
- empath75 7y agoThere’s a long history of russia executing and jailing it’s heroes.
- notlukesky 7y ago
- tejohnso 7y ago"I will endeavor to take joy in having this chance—the chance to be tested in the name of values I hold dear. In the end, Your Honor, the more frightening my future, the broader the smile with which I look at it. Thank you.” Outstanding courage.
- voidmain0001 7y agoI would say his courage comes from his conviction that he is right in his beliefs. There have been many individuals and groups that have endured state oppression with the same attitude of bliss because of their resolute belief that what they are doing is right.
- woodandsteel 7y agoIt's interesting that we have a number of commentators trying to divert the discussion, but none that make any attempt to actually defend Russia.
- chr1 7y agoIf paid trolls were to work on hn, they would be unlikely to work in the middle of night. So the lack of people defending Putin and his cronies is not remarkable. It is indeed unfortunate that there is no discussion about the other people who were arrested at the same protests with Zhukov, and who got 2-3 years for things like throwing plastic bottle towards policemen or touching the helmet, but i don't believe that's because some commenters are trying to divert attention. The article is poorly writen, and i believe Zhukov himself would have made similar comments.
- abbadadda 7y agoNot sure about you but I would wager that trolls work 24/7.
- FpUser 7y ago"who got 2-3 years for things like throwing plastic bottle towards policemen" You might be in for the whole lot of surprise on what similar act performed in the US can get you into. I encourage you to google "assaulting police officer". And what actually constitutes an "assault".
- chr1 7y agoPutins press secretary Peskov would be happy to know that you confirm his views about USA. I encourage you to share stories about things analogous to handling of Moscow protests happening in USA. And also to tell why something unreasonable happening in USA should be the standard for all other countries. (Disclaimer i am neither from Russia nor from USA).
- FpUser 7y ago
- zarkov99 7y agoI wonder if the New Yorker writer realizes this brave young man is for the most part quoting the evil, alt-right, misogynistic, transphobic Jordan Peterson. And whether he would have republished the speech if he did. /s
- dblotsky 7y agoPeterson said many other things that are objectionable. If he only said what Zhukov said, Peterson would also be in a more favourable light.
- zarkov99 7y agoLike what? I am fairly familiar with his work, could you point out what you found problematic? Peterson talks mainly about personal responsibility as the only way to meaning in a life that is mostly suffering. Clearly this young man was influenced by that message.
- dblotsky 7y agoI find objectionable his “slippery slope” argument about pronouns and his calls for silencing disciplines with which he disagrees.
- ourmandave 7y agoSometimes you need a martyr to make people realize the fuckery happening around them. For example, from Occupied France during WWII... On 5 December 1940, Bonsergent was convicted by a German military court of insulting the Wehrmacht as he insisted on taking full responsibility, saying he wanted to show the French what sort of people the Germans were and he was shot on 23 December 1940.[50] The execution of Bonsergent, a man guilty only of being a witness to an incident that was in itself only very trivial brought home to many of the French the precise nature of the "New Order in Europe". wikipedia link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Resistance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Resistance
- Waterluvian 7y agoThe incredible bravery, to me, comes from the fact that you can't know for sure your sacrifice will ultimately mean anything or be noticed by anyone.
- GVRV 7y agoThis is what is so interesting about it to me. If I were Snowden, I would have been suicidal or at least extremely depressed seeing how I basically threw away my life without the public caring at all (were there any long term changes? Does the average global citizen care about government spying? Were the responsible government officials brought to justice?). If no one cares about your sacrifice, then what's the point of making the sacrifice in the first place? I know this is a very negative point of view looking at the world, but it's something I've been spending a lot of time thinking about as I grow up (maybe it's a normal thing you realise when you're starting to change into a realist from an idealist as you mature).
- anovikov 7y agoAt the very least, privacy practices have evolved dramatically since Snowden affair. Everyone uses end-to-end encryption now, a website without https is now eyebrows-raising. So while government spying probably didn't reduce, there is a lot less they can do now.
- rdiddly 7y agoNot too bad either: The 2012 remarks of Nadya Tolokonnikova (Pussy Riot) before being sent to prison: https://eng-pussy-riot.livejournal.com/4602.html https://eng-pussy-riot.livejournal.com/4602.html
- notlukesky 7y agoPresident Obama allegedly attempted to kill a similar YouTuber/journalist American citizen. https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/trump-syria-drones-kill-list-first-amendment-dni-ukraine-a9127116.html https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/trump-syria-drones-kill... In Russia they put you on trial. From the Wikipedia link on the American YouTuber: Bilal Abdul Kareem (born Darrell Lamont Phelps) is an American journalist and war correspondent covering the Syrian Civil War.[1][2][3] He has worked with CNN,[4] and produces the YouTube channel On the Ground News TV (OGN TV).[2] He believes that he has been placed on the U.S. kill list.[5][6][7][8] He claims to have survived five drone assassination attempts by the U.S. military, which killed random civilians that were present nearby, including two attacks on vehicles he was traveling in, including one where the car he was sitting in was blown up by a missile shot from a drone.[9][10] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bilal_Abdul_Kareem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bilal_Abdul_Kareem https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/journalist-bilal-abdul-kareem-files-lawsuit-over-alleged-us-kill-list https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/journalist-bilal-abdul-ka...
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- sAbakumoff 7y agoPutin's regime killed dozens of journalists.
- notlukesky 7y agoWell known and documented. Just like the Putin regime, the Obama regime and W Bush regimes also killed journalists. https://www.theguardian.com/media/2003/apr/09/pressandpublishing.Iraqandthemedia https://www.theguardian.com/media/2003/apr/09/pressandpublis...