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It's worse than virtually any other way to learn a language. Saying that you can't expect it to be perfect doesn't justify it being really bad. DuoLingo isn't

It's worse than virtually any other way to learn a language. Saying that you can't expect it to be perfect doesn't justify it being really bad. DuoLingo isn't optimized to learn a language, it's optimized to give people the feeling they're learning a language. Flash cards are better, books are better, CDs are better, Spotify is better, YouTube videos are a lot better, and learning in person is way better.

SpicyLemonZest 7y ago
But is that actually true? When I see people say Duolingo is bad, they're always comparing it to some highly optimized language learning strategy, where you weave together Anki and suchandsuch grammar resource and a strict regimen of 30 minutes of target language media every day. I'd agree that Duolingo significantly compromises effectiveness for the sake of engagement, but to most people engagement is the hardest part of learning a language!
- claudeganon 7y ago
  I would say that Duolingo does the distinctly American thing of optimizing for making you “feel good” about your progress, even if that progress has no correlation with actual language ability. It’s more of a self-esteem simulator by way of language-learning than it is a useful tool for foreign language instruction.
- DiogenesKynikos 7y ago
  The point is that if you want to learn a language, you either follow an intensive regimen like the one you've described, or you don't and you make essentially no progress. Learning languages is not rocket science. It's mostly just work and dedication.
- AlchemistCamp 7y ago
  Yes, it's true. Using Duolingo is significantly worse than just about all your other options, including picking up a $30 Living Language textbook/workbook/CD set of whatever language you want. Living Language isn't aimed at university students or the most motivated people either. It's just one of the cheaper options. This is not just a throwaway comment, either. I've built and run a language school for four years (with two partners), taught thousands of children, worked at a language learning startup, and have read a lot L2 acquisition papers and know this space pretty well. I also contributed to Anki long ago, but I'm not a huge fan of using SRS for learning vocabulary. Extensive reading (and listening once you can) is a far better strategy. (Anki is pretty good for memorizing discrete pieces info though, such as how to write each Chinese character or all the atomic weights and numbers on the periodic table). As for engagement, I think Duolingo is pretty boring compared to making new friends, talking with people or even just reading a book about something I'm curious about. If you're learning any popular language (e.g. English, French, Spanish, Mandarin, Japanese, etc), you'll be able to find some pretty good graded readers aimed at beginners that let you start actually reading in your first few months of studying.
  - Jd 7y ago
    > I'm not a huge fan of using SRS for learning vocabulary. Extensive reading (and listening once you can) is a far better strategy Can you explain your logic and how you measure success? FWIW I'm ~8 languages deep and started using SRS with my 5th language. For the last couple languages I've tracked my metrics extensively (i.e. words learned and retained per day). Also with the SRS tool I use I read sentences along side the words I'm learning so I get some context.
    - AlchemistCamp 7y ago
      There's a lot of L2 acquisition research on extensive reading and it's definitely worth checking out. I covered some of my reasoning about the limitations of SRS in the 2nd half of this podcast: https://alchemist.camp/learning-machine/spaced-repetition-systems https://alchemist.camp/learning-machine/spaced-repetition-sy...
      - DiogenesKynikos 7y ago
        One of your criticisms of spaced repetition is the difficulty of representing associations between words on flashcards. I agree that that's difficult (though you can mitigate it by including example sentences in your deck). However, I think that that criticism expects too much of spaced repetition. It's a very powerful technique for learning and holding onto new vocabulary, but it doesn't replace reading, listening and speaking. You really can't learn nuances of word meaning with flashcards alone, but you can build up and retain a large vocabulary. You can deepen your understanding of the subtleties of the language in other ways.
      - Jd 7y ago
        Seems like you pretty much contrast: [1] SRS flashcard apps as an exclusive language learning system [2] Extensive reading While (2) is clearly better if those are your only choices, as you point out yourself SRS can easily be integrated into other curriculum or used as a supplemental tool. I'm not sure how many languages deep you are but I find getting through the first 1000-3000 words a real slog in the language and it is also quite hard to read in a language when you are at sub-3000 words unless you are reading especially prepared texts in a textbook for language learners. My preferred method is to do the basic grammar of a language and first 2000 words as quickly as possible with a cram method and then work on speaking and transitioning from passive to active vocabulary. SRS is a nice tool, esp. if the SRS tool you are using also has included sentences in context (I mostly use learnwitholiver.com). Then usually I work to train for the state run test of the language that I'm studying at a reasonably high level.
sjy 7y ago
What do you mean by worse? I’ve spent a lot of time on Duolingo as well as in face-to-face language classes, in high school and university. I’ve also spent a smaller amount of time self-studying from books, CDs and software that predated Duolingo. I’m not fluent in any of the languages I’ve studied because of a lack of immersion, but I learned a lot more from Duolingo than any other source because it was so easy to establish a daily habit and stick with it without having to pay anything. I’ve had basic conversations as a tourist in France after learning French exclusively from Duolingo. I’m sure I would have learned more if I spent that time in class instead, but I didn’t because it’s very expensive and inconvenient compared to spending 30 minutes a day on Duolingo while I’m commuting.
- benatkin 7y ago
  It is inefficient. The vocabulary lessons on Spotify run through words a lot faster. You don't have free reign of what category to study things in. It teaches vocabulary when you should be learning grammar. It teaches pronunciation just by having you repeat words, which is inadequate - the specifics of pronunciation (including emphasis of syllables) must be explained.
  - sjy 7y ago
    I don’t doubt that it’s less efficient than learning from a human teacher, if you just look at the time spent by the student and ignore the “efficiency” of software that interacts with millions of students at the same time. I’ve never heard of anyone learning a language by passively listening to Spotify, so I have a hard time seeing it as a Duolingo alternative, but I’m sure just like Duolingo and other language tapes, it would be a valuable complement to any other language-learning tool. None of them will make you fluent without immersion. What makes you say that explicit instruction in grammar (which does exist in Duolingo, although you’re right that the emphasis is on vocabulary) and pronunciation is necessary? That’s not how people learn their native languages. Considering that anyone can learn any language with enough exposure, and most people fail to achieve their language learning goals due to giving up after less than a thousand hours, I’m skeptical of this kind of pedagogical criticism.
davidzweig 7y ago
I'll plug our own mostly free-to-use project here, I think many will find it useful: http://languagelearningwithnetflix.com http://languagelearningwithnetflix.com (bilingual subs for Netflix and more)
- iandanforth 7y ago
  At first glance this is really well done. Subtitles and translations for Japanese are tricky due to furigana so good job!
  - davidzweig 7y ago
    Thanks.
- ant6n 7y ago
  I find a very good way to learn languages by Netflix is to watch content in foreign language plus foreign subs. This is really good for English, because virtually all content is subbed with closed captions. French on the other hand is nearly impossible since virtually all content has mismatches between the audio and the caption (i.e. they always have subtitles, never closed captions). I've yet to find way to search for closed captions (vs subtitles) on Netflix.
  - davidzweig 7y ago
    Way ahead of you :-) http://languagelearningwithnetflix.com/catalogue.html#language=English&country= http://languagelearningwithnetflix.com/catalogue.html#langua... (should update the catalogue data though, bit old now.)
- ralfd 7y ago
  I was sceptical, but this does look neat. I am German and trying to learn Spanish. - Can one disable the voice when looking up words in the dictionary? - Does it only work with Netflix or do you have plans for Amazon/Disney+? - Do you have large costs (hosting?) and plan paid pro features?
ilikehurdles 7y ago
How many people go through these other better methods for learning a language? In that sense, it’s a great way to learn a language if you wouldn’t otherwise be learning a language.
- benatkin 7y ago
  I think most go through a bunch of them. I have, and I've used DuoLingo, and it helped some. I might not be giving it enough credit, as it did help me get started, but since exploring other methods I've stopped using it.
- claudeganon 7y ago
  Using an ineffective language learning tool to maybe memorize a handful of terms is not in real terms more useful than never getting to or dropping other methods. If anything, it’s worse because it instills people with a false sense of their progress at a real goal (language acquisition) by simulating it with a fake one (accomplishing tasks on Duolingo).

SpicyLemonZest 7y ago

But is that actually true? When I see people say Duolingo is bad, they're always comparing it to some highly optimized language learning strategy, where you weave together Anki and suchandsuch grammar resource and a strict regimen of 30 minutes of target language media every day. I'd agree that Duolingo significantly compromises effectiveness for the sake of engagement, but to most people engagement is the hardest part of learning a language!

claudeganon 7y ago
I would say that Duolingo does the distinctly American thing of optimizing for making you “feel good” about your progress, even if that progress has no correlation with actual language ability. It’s more of a self-esteem simulator by way of language-learning than it is a useful tool for foreign language instruction.
DiogenesKynikos 7y ago
The point is that if you want to learn a language, you either follow an intensive regimen like the one you've described, or you don't and you make essentially no progress. Learning languages is not rocket science. It's mostly just work and dedication.
AlchemistCamp 7y ago
Yes, it's true. Using Duolingo is significantly worse than just about all your other options, including picking up a $30 Living Language textbook/workbook/CD set of whatever language you want. Living Language isn't aimed at university students or the most motivated people either. It's just one of the cheaper options. This is not just a throwaway comment, either. I've built and run a language school for four years (with two partners), taught thousands of children, worked at a language learning startup, and have read a lot L2 acquisition papers and know this space pretty well. I also contributed to Anki long ago, but I'm not a huge fan of using SRS for learning vocabulary. Extensive reading (and listening once you can) is a far better strategy. (Anki is pretty good for memorizing discrete pieces info though, such as how to write each Chinese character or all the atomic weights and numbers on the periodic table). As for engagement, I think Duolingo is pretty boring compared to making new friends, talking with people or even just reading a book about something I'm curious about. If you're learning any popular language (e.g. English, French, Spanish, Mandarin, Japanese, etc), you'll be able to find some pretty good graded readers aimed at beginners that let you start actually reading in your first few months of studying.
- Jd 7y ago
  > I'm not a huge fan of using SRS for learning vocabulary. Extensive reading (and listening once you can) is a far better strategy Can you explain your logic and how you measure success? FWIW I'm ~8 languages deep and started using SRS with my 5th language. For the last couple languages I've tracked my metrics extensively (i.e. words learned and retained per day). Also with the SRS tool I use I read sentences along side the words I'm learning so I get some context.
  - AlchemistCamp 7y ago
    There's a lot of L2 acquisition research on extensive reading and it's definitely worth checking out. I covered some of my reasoning about the limitations of SRS in the 2nd half of this podcast: https://alchemist.camp/learning-machine/spaced-repetition-systems https://alchemist.camp/learning-machine/spaced-repetition-sy...
    - DiogenesKynikos 7y ago
      One of your criticisms of spaced repetition is the difficulty of representing associations between words on flashcards. I agree that that's difficult (though you can mitigate it by including example sentences in your deck). However, I think that that criticism expects too much of spaced repetition. It's a very powerful technique for learning and holding onto new vocabulary, but it doesn't replace reading, listening and speaking. You really can't learn nuances of word meaning with flashcards alone, but you can build up and retain a large vocabulary. You can deepen your understanding of the subtleties of the language in other ways.
    - Jd 7y ago
      Seems like you pretty much contrast: [1] SRS flashcard apps as an exclusive language learning system [2] Extensive reading While (2) is clearly better if those are your only choices, as you point out yourself SRS can easily be integrated into other curriculum or used as a supplemental tool. I'm not sure how many languages deep you are but I find getting through the first 1000-3000 words a real slog in the language and it is also quite hard to read in a language when you are at sub-3000 words unless you are reading especially prepared texts in a textbook for language learners. My preferred method is to do the basic grammar of a language and first 2000 words as quickly as possible with a cram method and then work on speaking and transitioning from passive to active vocabulary. SRS is a nice tool, esp. if the SRS tool you are using also has included sentences in context (I mostly use learnwitholiver.com). Then usually I work to train for the state run test of the language that I'm studying at a reasonably high level.

sjy 7y ago

What do you mean by worse? I’ve spent a lot of time on Duolingo as well as in face-to-face language classes, in high school and university. I’ve also spent a smaller amount of time self-studying from books, CDs and software that predated Duolingo. I’m not fluent in any of the languages I’ve studied because of a lack of immersion, but I learned a lot more from Duolingo than any other source because it was so easy to establish a daily habit and stick with it without having to pay anything. I’ve had basic conversations as a tourist in France after learning French exclusively from Duolingo. I’m sure I would have learned more if I spent that time in class instead, but I didn’t because it’s very expensive and inconvenient compared to spending 30 minutes a day on Duolingo while I’m commuting.

benatkin 7y ago
It is inefficient. The vocabulary lessons on Spotify run through words a lot faster. You don't have free reign of what category to study things in. It teaches vocabulary when you should be learning grammar. It teaches pronunciation just by having you repeat words, which is inadequate - the specifics of pronunciation (including emphasis of syllables) must be explained.
- sjy 7y ago
  I don’t doubt that it’s less efficient than learning from a human teacher, if you just look at the time spent by the student and ignore the “efficiency” of software that interacts with millions of students at the same time. I’ve never heard of anyone learning a language by passively listening to Spotify, so I have a hard time seeing it as a Duolingo alternative, but I’m sure just like Duolingo and other language tapes, it would be a valuable complement to any other language-learning tool. None of them will make you fluent without immersion. What makes you say that explicit instruction in grammar (which does exist in Duolingo, although you’re right that the emphasis is on vocabulary) and pronunciation is necessary? That’s not how people learn their native languages. Considering that anyone can learn any language with enough exposure, and most people fail to achieve their language learning goals due to giving up after less than a thousand hours, I’m skeptical of this kind of pedagogical criticism.

davidzweig 7y ago

I'll plug our own mostly free-to-use project here, I think many will find it useful: http://languagelearningwithnetflix.com http://languagelearningwithnetflix.com (bilingual subs for Netflix and more)

iandanforth 7y ago
At first glance this is really well done. Subtitles and translations for Japanese are tricky due to furigana so good job!
- davidzweig 7y ago
  Thanks.
ant6n 7y ago
I find a very good way to learn languages by Netflix is to watch content in foreign language plus foreign subs. This is really good for English, because virtually all content is subbed with closed captions. French on the other hand is nearly impossible since virtually all content has mismatches between the audio and the caption (i.e. they always have subtitles, never closed captions). I've yet to find way to search for closed captions (vs subtitles) on Netflix.
- davidzweig 7y ago
  Way ahead of you :-) http://languagelearningwithnetflix.com/catalogue.html#language=English&country= http://languagelearningwithnetflix.com/catalogue.html#langua... (should update the catalogue data though, bit old now.)
ralfd 7y ago
I was sceptical, but this does look neat. I am German and trying to learn Spanish. - Can one disable the voice when looking up words in the dictionary? - Does it only work with Netflix or do you have plans for Amazon/Disney+? - Do you have large costs (hosting?) and plan paid pro features?

ilikehurdles 7y ago

How many people go through these other better methods for learning a language? In that sense, it’s a great way to learn a language if you wouldn’t otherwise be learning a language.

benatkin 7y ago
I think most go through a bunch of them. I have, and I've used DuoLingo, and it helped some. I might not be giving it enough credit, as it did help me get started, but since exploring other methods I've stopped using it.
claudeganon 7y ago
Using an ineffective language learning tool to maybe memorize a handful of terms is not in real terms more useful than never getting to or dropping other methods. If anything, it’s worse because it instills people with a false sense of their progress at a real goal (language acquisition) by simulating it with a fake one (accomplishing tasks on Duolingo).