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I wonder if there's a market for some company to resell smart TVs that they've lobotomized. I.e., they have a list of TV models that they know how to disable n

I wonder if there's a market for some company to resell smart TVs that they've lobotomized. I.e., they have a list of TV models that they know how to disable network connectivity without causing any other problems. You order from them, and for some reasonable fee they'll make the change, verify everything is okay, and ship you the unit. Personally, I'd be willing to pay a $100-200 premium for that, especially for a TV that (pre-lobotomy) sells for over $600.

tootie 7y ago
Can't you just not connect it to wifi?
- CaptainMarvel 7y ago
  I give it five years before TVs with built-in 5G are mainstream. In addition, some TVs automatically connect to open WiFi.
  - buckminster 7y ago
    Yeah, people keep saying 5G is important for the internet of things. This is surely what they mean.
    - beamatronic 7y ago
      The internet of things with ads
      - tpmx 7y ago
        IoTwA?
  - codetrotter 7y ago
    I'm fine with that. If its using 5G then it's not on my LAN and the concern in the featured article is no longer a problem. Furthermore, if its using 5G then its not tied to the IP address that my other traffic comes from and so they can't use the TV to target me with ads online either. (Provided I don't use any of the same accounts on both the TV and my other devices.)
    - saltcured 7y ago
      I think you are ignoring the use of location-based tracking and other correlation techniques. A bunch of different 5G appliances can all figure out their positions quite accurately from 5G signals and decide they belong to the same household. And, that's before you consider that they can also scan local wifi and bluetooth spectra to glean even more information about their local environments. With participation of vendor applications on phones, they could also use ultrasonics or crazier things like modulated LED lighting. Finally, if one of those devices is compromised, it can then be used to launch local attacks via wifi and bluetooth, or even potentially those other covert channels if they can exploit sloppy code in those other dark apps...
      - codetrotter 7y ago
        You are right, I didn't think about those things. Taking those things into account as well as the things paulmd pointed out in a sibling comment, I am no longer fine with the idea of 5G in my TV.
    - repler 7y ago
      > I'm fine with that. If its using 5G then it's not on my LAN and the concern in the featured article is no longer a problem. Not on your LAN but still harvesting your usage data (a feature!), and still hackable (smile for the camera!).
      - codetrotter 7y ago
        > and still hackable (smile for the camera!) I don't know of any TVs that come with a camera built into them, and if there are any I certainly wouldn't buy one of those.
    - paulmd 7y ago
      TVs can emit ultrasonic tracking tones which your phone can pick up and link your TV identity to your phone identity (facebook, google, whatever apps have microphone access to listen). https://www.pindrop.com/blog/silently-tracking-users-with-ultrasonic-beacons/ https://www.pindrop.com/blog/silently-tracking-users-with-ul... https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2015/11/your-phone-is-literally-listening-to-your-tv/416712/ https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2015/11/your-... https://thehackernews.com/2017/05/ultrasonic-tracking-signals-apps.html https://thehackernews.com/2017/05/ultrasonic-tracking-signal... Also, virtually any device with cell connectivity includes a GPS on the same chipset so it's pretty trivial to connect that with google location data. So if it has 5G it has your location it has your identity.
  - tootie 7y ago
    I will wrap the entire bezel in Faraday tape. Will probably look pretty cool.
- swebs 7y ago
  Many of them connect to 3G automatically. Edit: I guess I was mistaken. They were not caught doing that yet.
  - jaywalk 7y ago
    What? Can you provide any evidence of this?
  - BubRoss 7y ago
    I haven't seen that anywhere, do you have a link or source?
  - SteveNuts 7y ago
    Source please.
- hart_russell 7y ago
  My TCL TV blinked an annoying light when I didn't connect it to wifi
  - unwiredben 7y ago
    That was because it was setup in connected mode and was trying to tell you of a connection loss. If you factory reset the TV and choose not to connect it, you won't have the blink.
lgl 7y ago
I'm probably missing something here but why not just disconnect the TV from the ethernet/wifi? Are these things connecting themselves to the network?
- ygjb 7y ago
  Many of them throw continuous error messages and warnings about connectivity, and some features just plain don't work without it.
  - DoofusOfDeath 7y ago
    I believe you. That's part of the value proposition: the company would know the impact of their changes to various TV models, and you could factor that into your buying decision.
- imglorp 7y ago
  In theory, that's not enough to keep them offline, if coded deviously enough. If your neighbor, for example, has a syndicated WIFI like Fios or Xfinity, your TV can try those. Also, it has 24/7 free time to sit there and break passwords, if needed. Even a slow CPU would score some eventually. And finally, the room is probably full of other devices which themselves may have connections; a TV can communicate ultrasonically with those to exfiltrate your data. https://security.stackexchange.com/questions/113502/how-to-prevent-iot-devices-from-phoning-home-via-the-neighbors-wifi https://security.stackexchange.com/questions/113502/how-to-p... https://www.aircrack-ng.org https://www.aircrack-ng.org https://www.securityweek.com/stealthy-data-exfiltration-possible-headphones-speakers https://www.securityweek.com/stealthy-data-exfiltration-poss...
  - close04 7y ago
    I don’t see a TV doing 24/7 password cracking. Most WiFi passwords are now relatively complex out of the box and a TV would never have a realistic chance of cracking one. And while collecting data is maybe immoral, hacking passwords is as illegal as it gets. It would be orders of magnitude cheaper and safer to build in 4G connectivity and use it to upload the relatively small payloads.
kgwxd 7y ago
Why companies don't just continue to manufacture screen-only TV's baffles me. I'd love to see some existing privacy-oriented company that already has to deal with screen manufactures start selling "privacy-oriented TVs".
- some-guy 7y ago
  They exist, they're called "commercial displays", and they're quite expensive.
  - DoofusOfDeath 7y ago
    What explains the large price premium of commercial displays? Is it just that they're low-volume SKUs? Or are the somewhat more ruggedized than consumer models?
    - chipperyman573 7y ago
      The fact that the cost isn't subsidized by the tracking and advertising provided by the smart tv (I have no evidence for this but I've seen this comment posted many times before)
      - dawnerd 7y ago
        Bingo! Those Roku / FireTV / Netflix / Amazon/ Etc logos on the boxes don't pay for themselves. Although what's insulting is when the super premium tvs that STILL include all the same tracking junk. A 3k dollar+ tv shouldn't need any subsidizing at all, yet here we are.
      - msbarnett 7y ago
        Here's the evidence for it, by the way. Straight from an interview with the CTO of Vizio: https://www.theverge.com/2019/1/7/18172397/airplay-2-homekit-vizio-tv-bill-baxter-interview-vergecast-ces-2019 https://www.theverge.com/2019/1/7/18172397/airplay-2-homekit... It goes into how running content recognizition software against whatever's on the TV display lets them collect and aggregate data to sell, which helps them sell the TV for very low prices without having to worry about being profitable on the initial sale thanks to data and other monetization streams. Sony, Samsung, and the other major TV players all run very similar Automatic Content Recognition systems.
mensetmanusman 7y ago
That’s why we use projectors in our home :) Also, side benefit of no large black rectangle :)
- DoofusOfDeath 7y ago
  Can you comment on the image quality of that vs. a modern LCD TV? I'm looking to add a TV, large computer monitor, or similar to our living room for PC gaming, XBox gaming, and movies. I assumed that a projector would be washed out whenever the room's lights were on. Which would be a hassle for people who wanted to be in the living room at the time but were doing other activities.
  - 52-6F-62 7y ago
    I'd recommend this route instead. Holy hell these things looked good. Could still suffer from glare, but they were really rich in tone. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Pioneer-Elite-Kuro-PRO-150FD-60-1080p-Plasma-HDTV-TV-w-Remote-Stand-Speakers/113996942374?epid=18034082205&hash=item1a8abf4c26:g:miMAAOSwHIBd5BTN https://www.ebay.com/itm/Pioneer-Elite-Kuro-PRO-150FD-60-108... That thing used to be 7000+ CAD. Even more when they first came out. In between legs at school I sold them in Calgary.
  - themattress 7y ago
    I’ve been using a projector as my only tv for years, and even during the daytime it’s still usable. It definitely is better in the dark, but usually I don’t even close my blinds during the day. I’ve had to replace the bulb once in about 4 years. Or rather the timer went off to warn me and I replaced it — bulb was still working though. New lamp was fairly cheap too IIRC, $40, maybe less? And I can take it with me, or outside in my backyard for a movie night. I probably won’t ever go back to smart or dumb tvs
  - emptybottle 7y ago
    It's apples to oranges in my opinion, since it's a comparison between 50" and 150" at the same resolution. What advantage the TV may have in pixel sharpness a good projector more than makes up for in size and field of view. I went with an Epson 1060 (which is a fairly budget option) and it's freaking awesome. I was afraid it would be dim in full sunlight, but it's not a problem at all. My screen is next to two windows and even in full daylight with the lights on it is super bright and visible even while in eco mode (which is dimmer than regular mode). Fully replaced my TV and at a much much lower price point than the biggest possible LCD. Also, replacement bulbs are ~$60 bucks and I have yet to replace one after ~2 years. Added bonus is the option to install a powered retractable screen, which make the TV all but disappear from the room when not in use.
Iwillgetby 7y ago
This is fairly trivial for packet nerds using bro/zeek, pihole and iptables. Zeek (or wireshark) can revel what domains and ip addresses are being accessed. Pihole and iptables can block those addresses. Pihole needs to be the only DNS allowed and iptables needs to be running in between the TV and its path to the internet.
- PeterStuer 7y ago
  Easily bypassed with Wifi or 4G.
dylan604 7y ago
I'm guessing lawyers would get involved to shut that type of service down. Right to repair laws might help, but this sounds like the model for people selling modified PlayStations. There are companies that will re-house a photography lens to be cinema friendly. The lens manufactures don't stop this, because it doesn't really affect their bottom line. TV manufactures would lose the money they made agreements with 3rd party people, so you know they would be more litigious to protect that income.
travisporter 7y ago
Yes, this! I asked in another thread if there was a faraday cage we could use for the tv or at least tamper with the wifi antenna. I know CRTs have dangerous levels of voltage, so I hope it's not the case for lcd/led TVs
- Merrill 7y ago
  You could wrap the TV in aluminum foil. >Perhaps the best April Fools’ joke of the (Youth) Journal [a Dutch news program] came in 1969. Special cars would drive around with scanners to track down television owners who hadn’t paid the license fee [it’s like in the UK, where you have to pay a fee to the BBC]. But if you wrapped the TV in aluminum foil, you could fool the scanners. Before long there was no foil to be found in stores. http://business.time.com/2007/08/21/why_dutch_people_wrapped_their/ http://business.time.com/2007/08/21/why_dutch_people_wrapped...
wil421 7y ago
How about you don’t connect your TV to the internet? Here’s a consumer reports article that tells you how to turn off most tracking if you must connect it to the internet.[1] Get a decent set of network hardware so you can monitor everything that’s going on. I can recommended UniFi by Ubiquiti, despite the recent blow back about crash reports being sent to them. [1] https://www.consumerreports.org/privacy/how-to-turn-off-smart-tv-snooping-features/ https://www.consumerreports.org/privacy/how-to-turn-off-smar...
- GrayShade 7y ago
  > How about you don’t connect your TV to the internet? Then we'll see the manufacturers include SIM cards, at least in countries where it's affordable.
  - F147H34D 7y ago
    Twilio is making this pretty easy. I just ordered three SIM cards from them that I can provision, to see how it works. Their aim is for these SIMs to be utilized in IoT devices. https://www.twilio.com/wireless https://www.twilio.com/wireless
  - MrMember 7y ago
    That's the future of all internet connected appliances. We're already seeing it with cars, at some point it will be affordable enough to include in TVs, fridges, ovens, anything that might want to phone home.
- paulmd 7y ago
  Hope you're not connecting it to any internet-connected device (PC, console, etc) either because most HDMI cables nowadays have pins to carry an ethernet signal as well.
  - wil421 7y ago
    My Sony TV and Apple TV do not support it. According to stack exchange nobody really supports it, although I can’t attest to the commenters credibility.[1] A quick google search doesn’t show any Sony TV with this capability. Can you give me an example of any consumer TV that supports Ethernet over HDMI? [1] https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/325215/appletv-ethernet-over-hdmi https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/325215/appletv-eth...
burk96 7y ago
Most of the TVs provide a software update functionality, maybe custom firmware that disables networking hardware could become a thing.

tootie 7y ago

Can't you just not connect it to wifi?

CaptainMarvel 7y ago
I give it five years before TVs with built-in 5G are mainstream. In addition, some TVs automatically connect to open WiFi.
- buckminster 7y ago
  Yeah, people keep saying 5G is important for the internet of things. This is surely what they mean.
  - beamatronic 7y ago
    The internet of things with ads
    - tpmx 7y ago
      IoTwA?
- codetrotter 7y ago
  I'm fine with that. If its using 5G then it's not on my LAN and the concern in the featured article is no longer a problem. Furthermore, if its using 5G then its not tied to the IP address that my other traffic comes from and so they can't use the TV to target me with ads online either. (Provided I don't use any of the same accounts on both the TV and my other devices.)
  - saltcured 7y ago
    I think you are ignoring the use of location-based tracking and other correlation techniques. A bunch of different 5G appliances can all figure out their positions quite accurately from 5G signals and decide they belong to the same household. And, that's before you consider that they can also scan local wifi and bluetooth spectra to glean even more information about their local environments. With participation of vendor applications on phones, they could also use ultrasonics or crazier things like modulated LED lighting. Finally, if one of those devices is compromised, it can then be used to launch local attacks via wifi and bluetooth, or even potentially those other covert channels if they can exploit sloppy code in those other dark apps...
    - codetrotter 7y ago
      You are right, I didn't think about those things. Taking those things into account as well as the things paulmd pointed out in a sibling comment, I am no longer fine with the idea of 5G in my TV.
  - repler 7y ago
    > I'm fine with that. If its using 5G then it's not on my LAN and the concern in the featured article is no longer a problem. Not on your LAN but still harvesting your usage data (a feature!), and still hackable (smile for the camera!).
    - codetrotter 7y ago
      > and still hackable (smile for the camera!) I don't know of any TVs that come with a camera built into them, and if there are any I certainly wouldn't buy one of those.
  - paulmd 7y ago
    TVs can emit ultrasonic tracking tones which your phone can pick up and link your TV identity to your phone identity (facebook, google, whatever apps have microphone access to listen). https://www.pindrop.com/blog/silently-tracking-users-with-ultrasonic-beacons/ https://www.pindrop.com/blog/silently-tracking-users-with-ul... https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2015/11/your-phone-is-literally-listening-to-your-tv/416712/ https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2015/11/your-... https://thehackernews.com/2017/05/ultrasonic-tracking-signals-apps.html https://thehackernews.com/2017/05/ultrasonic-tracking-signal... Also, virtually any device with cell connectivity includes a GPS on the same chipset so it's pretty trivial to connect that with google location data. So if it has 5G it has your location it has your identity.
- tootie 7y ago
  I will wrap the entire bezel in Faraday tape. Will probably look pretty cool.
swebs 7y ago
Many of them connect to 3G automatically. Edit: I guess I was mistaken. They were not caught doing that yet.
- jaywalk 7y ago
  What? Can you provide any evidence of this?
- BubRoss 7y ago
  I haven't seen that anywhere, do you have a link or source?
- SteveNuts 7y ago
  Source please.
hart_russell 7y ago
My TCL TV blinked an annoying light when I didn't connect it to wifi
- unwiredben 7y ago
  That was because it was setup in connected mode and was trying to tell you of a connection loss. If you factory reset the TV and choose not to connect it, you won't have the blink.

lgl 7y ago

I'm probably missing something here but why not just disconnect the TV from the ethernet/wifi? Are these things connecting themselves to the network?

ygjb 7y ago
Many of them throw continuous error messages and warnings about connectivity, and some features just plain don't work without it.
- DoofusOfDeath 7y ago
  I believe you. That's part of the value proposition: the company would know the impact of their changes to various TV models, and you could factor that into your buying decision.
imglorp 7y ago
In theory, that's not enough to keep them offline, if coded deviously enough. If your neighbor, for example, has a syndicated WIFI like Fios or Xfinity, your TV can try those. Also, it has 24/7 free time to sit there and break passwords, if needed. Even a slow CPU would score some eventually. And finally, the room is probably full of other devices which themselves may have connections; a TV can communicate ultrasonically with those to exfiltrate your data. https://security.stackexchange.com/questions/113502/how-to-prevent-iot-devices-from-phoning-home-via-the-neighbors-wifi https://security.stackexchange.com/questions/113502/how-to-p... https://www.aircrack-ng.org https://www.aircrack-ng.org https://www.securityweek.com/stealthy-data-exfiltration-possible-headphones-speakers https://www.securityweek.com/stealthy-data-exfiltration-poss...
- close04 7y ago
  I don’t see a TV doing 24/7 password cracking. Most WiFi passwords are now relatively complex out of the box and a TV would never have a realistic chance of cracking one. And while collecting data is maybe immoral, hacking passwords is as illegal as it gets. It would be orders of magnitude cheaper and safer to build in 4G connectivity and use it to upload the relatively small payloads.

kgwxd 7y ago

Why companies don't just continue to manufacture screen-only TV's baffles me. I'd love to see some existing privacy-oriented company that already has to deal with screen manufactures start selling "privacy-oriented TVs".

some-guy 7y ago
They exist, they're called "commercial displays", and they're quite expensive.
- DoofusOfDeath 7y ago
  What explains the large price premium of commercial displays? Is it just that they're low-volume SKUs? Or are the somewhat more ruggedized than consumer models?
  - chipperyman573 7y ago
    The fact that the cost isn't subsidized by the tracking and advertising provided by the smart tv (I have no evidence for this but I've seen this comment posted many times before)
    - dawnerd 7y ago
      Bingo! Those Roku / FireTV / Netflix / Amazon/ Etc logos on the boxes don't pay for themselves. Although what's insulting is when the super premium tvs that STILL include all the same tracking junk. A 3k dollar+ tv shouldn't need any subsidizing at all, yet here we are.
    - msbarnett 7y ago
      Here's the evidence for it, by the way. Straight from an interview with the CTO of Vizio: https://www.theverge.com/2019/1/7/18172397/airplay-2-homekit-vizio-tv-bill-baxter-interview-vergecast-ces-2019 https://www.theverge.com/2019/1/7/18172397/airplay-2-homekit... It goes into how running content recognizition software against whatever's on the TV display lets them collect and aggregate data to sell, which helps them sell the TV for very low prices without having to worry about being profitable on the initial sale thanks to data and other monetization streams. Sony, Samsung, and the other major TV players all run very similar Automatic Content Recognition systems.

mensetmanusman 7y ago

That’s why we use projectors in our home :) Also, side benefit of no large black rectangle :)

DoofusOfDeath 7y ago
Can you comment on the image quality of that vs. a modern LCD TV? I'm looking to add a TV, large computer monitor, or similar to our living room for PC gaming, XBox gaming, and movies. I assumed that a projector would be washed out whenever the room's lights were on. Which would be a hassle for people who wanted to be in the living room at the time but were doing other activities.
- 52-6F-62 7y ago
  I'd recommend this route instead. Holy hell these things looked good. Could still suffer from glare, but they were really rich in tone. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Pioneer-Elite-Kuro-PRO-150FD-60-1080p-Plasma-HDTV-TV-w-Remote-Stand-Speakers/113996942374?epid=18034082205&hash=item1a8abf4c26:g:miMAAOSwHIBd5BTN https://www.ebay.com/itm/Pioneer-Elite-Kuro-PRO-150FD-60-108... That thing used to be 7000+ CAD. Even more when they first came out. In between legs at school I sold them in Calgary.
- themattress 7y ago
  I’ve been using a projector as my only tv for years, and even during the daytime it’s still usable. It definitely is better in the dark, but usually I don’t even close my blinds during the day. I’ve had to replace the bulb once in about 4 years. Or rather the timer went off to warn me and I replaced it — bulb was still working though. New lamp was fairly cheap too IIRC, $40, maybe less? And I can take it with me, or outside in my backyard for a movie night. I probably won’t ever go back to smart or dumb tvs
- emptybottle 7y ago
  It's apples to oranges in my opinion, since it's a comparison between 50" and 150" at the same resolution. What advantage the TV may have in pixel sharpness a good projector more than makes up for in size and field of view. I went with an Epson 1060 (which is a fairly budget option) and it's freaking awesome. I was afraid it would be dim in full sunlight, but it's not a problem at all. My screen is next to two windows and even in full daylight with the lights on it is super bright and visible even while in eco mode (which is dimmer than regular mode). Fully replaced my TV and at a much much lower price point than the biggest possible LCD. Also, replacement bulbs are ~$60 bucks and I have yet to replace one after ~2 years. Added bonus is the option to install a powered retractable screen, which make the TV all but disappear from the room when not in use.

Iwillgetby 7y ago

This is fairly trivial for packet nerds using bro/zeek, pihole and iptables. Zeek (or wireshark) can revel what domains and ip addresses are being accessed. Pihole and iptables can block those addresses. Pihole needs to be the only DNS allowed and iptables needs to be running in between the TV and its path to the internet.

PeterStuer 7y ago
Easily bypassed with Wifi or 4G.

dylan604 7y ago

I'm guessing lawyers would get involved to shut that type of service down. Right to repair laws might help, but this sounds like the model for people selling modified PlayStations. There are companies that will re-house a photography lens to be cinema friendly. The lens manufactures don't stop this, because it doesn't really affect their bottom line. TV manufactures would lose the money they made agreements with 3rd party people, so you know they would be more litigious to protect that income.

travisporter 7y ago

Yes, this! I asked in another thread if there was a faraday cage we could use for the tv or at least tamper with the wifi antenna. I know CRTs have dangerous levels of voltage, so I hope it's not the case for lcd/led TVs

Merrill 7y ago
You could wrap the TV in aluminum foil. >Perhaps the best April Fools’ joke of the (Youth) Journal [a Dutch news program] came in 1969. Special cars would drive around with scanners to track down television owners who hadn’t paid the license fee [it’s like in the UK, where you have to pay a fee to the BBC]. But if you wrapped the TV in aluminum foil, you could fool the scanners. Before long there was no foil to be found in stores. http://business.time.com/2007/08/21/why_dutch_people_wrapped_their/ http://business.time.com/2007/08/21/why_dutch_people_wrapped...

wil421 7y ago

How about you don’t connect your TV to the internet? Here’s a consumer reports article that tells you how to turn off most tracking if you must connect it to the internet.[1] Get a decent set of network hardware so you can monitor everything that’s going on. I can recommended UniFi by Ubiquiti, despite the recent blow back about crash reports being sent to them. [1] https://www.consumerreports.org/privacy/how-to-turn-off-smart-tv-snooping-features/ https://www.consumerreports.org/privacy/how-to-turn-off-smar...

GrayShade 7y ago
> How about you don’t connect your TV to the internet? Then we'll see the manufacturers include SIM cards, at least in countries where it's affordable.
- F147H34D 7y ago
  Twilio is making this pretty easy. I just ordered three SIM cards from them that I can provision, to see how it works. Their aim is for these SIMs to be utilized in IoT devices. https://www.twilio.com/wireless https://www.twilio.com/wireless
- MrMember 7y ago
  That's the future of all internet connected appliances. We're already seeing it with cars, at some point it will be affordable enough to include in TVs, fridges, ovens, anything that might want to phone home.
paulmd 7y ago
Hope you're not connecting it to any internet-connected device (PC, console, etc) either because most HDMI cables nowadays have pins to carry an ethernet signal as well.
- wil421 7y ago
  My Sony TV and Apple TV do not support it. According to stack exchange nobody really supports it, although I can’t attest to the commenters credibility.[1] A quick google search doesn’t show any Sony TV with this capability. Can you give me an example of any consumer TV that supports Ethernet over HDMI? [1] https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/325215/appletv-ethernet-over-hdmi https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/325215/appletv-eth...

burk96 7y ago

Most of the TVs provide a software update functionality, maybe custom firmware that disables networking hardware could become a thing.