14 ms·

The Science of Wi-Fi on Airplanes

158 points by Anon84 7y ago

Vordax 7y ago
I wonder how SpaceX Starlink will disrupt the current players in this market.
- ggm 7y ago
  lowering RTT significantly would immediately alter the equation between ground facing and sat facing comms.
  - tyingq 7y ago
    The lower bandwidth cost is a big deal as well. Though actively tracking and often swinging to new satellites while going 500mph, with the aircraft tilting and yawing is probably not easy.
    - dreamcompiler 7y ago
      It's not that hard with a phased array. Not trivial of course, and there are lots of subtleties (like handoff) but it's known engineering.
    - ch4ch4 7y ago
      Starlink receivers will use solid-state phased array beamforming antennae, so nothing has to physically "swing" to a new satellite. With a reasonably accurate accelerometer and inertial sensor, it's easy to compensate for aircraft movement.
      - ggm 7y ago
        I thought even the current GEO orbit antenna were phased array. If not, there might also be the point that the aerodynamics for a phased array shell may be less expensive on fuel burden (less air resistance, less turbulence) and lighter, so cheaper overall. (at a refit cost)
        dreamcompiler 7y ago
        Most of the ones I've seen still have moving parts. They're clever mechanisms and are not as deep as a swinging dish, but they're still motorized.
        tyingq 7y ago
        The Connexion antenna was all phased array with no tilt/yaw, but it was huge. The ones on aircraft now do track the satellite, tilt, etc.
      - tyingq 7y ago
        Ahh, that's helpful, but the spot size is likely pretty small, so there is probably some work on how to make the transition from spot to spot seamless.
        nradov 7y ago
        Installing two antennas per aircraft could make the transitions pretty seamless, at the cost of a little extra weight and drag.
        dreamcompiler 7y ago
        That's how it will have to be done in any case. The only question is whether they'll split the phased array transducers in one large array to look at two satellites at once, or have two separate smaller arrays. Both approaches can be made to work, and the first is probably better aerodynamically.
      - hoseja 7y ago
        I don't think you'd even need that, the antenna can "simply" seek the strongest signal direction.
- trixie_ 7y ago
  https://www.reuters.com/article/us-spacex-starlink-airforce/musks-satellite-project-testing-encrypted-internet-with-military-planes-idUSKBN1X12KM https://www.reuters.com/article/us-spacex-starlink-airforce/...
ggm 7y ago
At one point connexion by boeing was doing some fearsome BGP re-steering to try and get traffic efficient ground station routing. I don't know how they did it (by hand?) or how well it worked, it was anecdata. I was also told the FAA at one point demanded all aircraft have the same IP and ASN. I suspect thats magnified bullshit but it is an interesting question, what FAA compliance in data services means for certifying a configuration which has to be mutable as you move, as aircraft change lease, as ISPs come and go.
- tyingq 7y ago
  I doubt the FAA got involved with IP addresses and BGP. They do care about airgapping , heat, grounding, electrical, antenna radomes and hull integrity, etc.
air7 7y ago
> Surfing the internet at 35,000 feet is now something that we expect on flights. Not only do I not expect this, I actually dread the time when it is ubiquitous and free. Flying is really a unique experience in that it forces you to sit still, disconnect and entertain yourself for a substantial period. This has a meditative element for me: I have time to not be updated, to gaze, to talk to strangers, to be bored... All the things people used to do in the long long ago. It gives flying a kind of sublime quality because it prepares me mentally for arriving at a completely different place than the one I left. It's not just a continuous Instagram fueled frenzy like any other day. Of course I can choose to not use my phone/internet at any time, but it's so much harder that it loses its entire allure: Instead of just disengaging I'm constantly fighting the urge and telling myself "No!". Once it's available on board I won't be able to resist.
- xwdv 7y ago
  If you want this go on a cruise for a week and disconnect yourself. Don’t buy the WiFi package, tell everyone you’re in the middle of an ocean, gone. I don’t get why people treat flying so ceremoniously; it’s a glorified bus ride. I still got shit to do, and I need access to resources. It is a waste of time to burn 6 hours when flying cross country for nothing. I could get a lot done in that time.
  - mehrdadn 7y ago
    Cruises come with a lot more baggage than just disconnecting yourself for a week.
  - teflodollar 7y ago
    A cheaper way would be to just go camping. I agree with parent, planes are a great space to focus for me. I don't think there's anywhere else that I've done so much heavy reading. The lack of connection and the white noise of the engines make it the perfect place to zone in (or zone out!).
  - ggm 7y ago
    I travel for work 20 years, 6-7 internationals per year (or more) and I can tell you 1) its not always cross country and 2) sleep is possibly the most important thing you can do, if you need to move timezones and be alert and working when you get there. I do work in the air. I've had other passengers complain about my keyboard volume. I also now pace it, police it and don't try to over-do it: The spam-can is not condusive to good work outcomes always. Its ok for reading and reflection, and oftentimes they don't depend on connectivity.
tyingq 7y ago
Most of why WiFi on aircraft sucks is because airlines went too early. To be fair, they had to guess. The better Ka band satellite experience wasn't ready when most airlines made their initial choice, so most of them went with either Ku band satellite or air to ground cellular. Both have either technical or cost barriers to deliver enough bandwidth. And, the cost for the hardware, FAA certification, and long aircraft downtimes to get it all installed and working was really high. So they have to recoup all that before upgrading. JetBlue guessed better with the timing, waiting until it was ready, so their experience is better, and pricing isn't terrible as compared to others. I feel like Southwest made a decent compromise. They went Ku, but use a separate transponder to give away TV and movies at no charge, and a small slice of bandwidth to give iMessage and whatsApp for free. The paid wifi is slow, but comparitively cheap. The airlines that went with AirCell/GoGo are the worst of the lot. Nothing for free, and the pricing is outrageous given the experience. Most airlines should be about ready to upgrade all the old stuff soon, so the experience should improve. Low orbit tech would help even more.
- rootusrootus 7y ago
  Alaska uses GoGo and they also give away iMessage for free. A weird side effect is that sometimes you get more than just free messaging. Every time I've used it, I get full Internet access (though it sure is slow). My wife's phone only ever gets iMessage. No idea why I get the accidental free upgrade.
  - o-__-o 7y ago
    do you have tmobile? I think the service provider is related. on a side note, I've always gotten iMessage to work on southwest flights without paying. and on united you can get to certain google hosts without a paywall. I think that's all I'll share on here for now
    - bronco21016 7y ago
      As someone who practically lives on airliners equipped with GoGo I’m curious what else you have... What Google hosts work? Would creating a tunnel to something on GCE work?
thedudeabides5 7y ago
Pumped for the day when Roko's basilisk comes this close to taking over the world's financial system, but is thwarted by crappy airplane wifi. RB's up there excited, all ready to press the big red button after departing JFK in Air Force One, but can't because it forgot to download the mandatory app before take-off. Foiled again!
- Dylan16807 7y ago
  The term "basilisk" is referring to the thought experiment itself, not the AI, by the way. A basilisk is something where perceiving it damages you, more or less. The AI is nameless or might be referred to as Omega.
  - thedudeabides5 7y ago
    ah my bad. guess that's why no one liked the joke. gotta be accurate with your Omega jokes on HN or people will shred you.
trixie_ 7y ago
Just flew from LA to Boston on JetBlue. Woo free WiFi. Boo everyone is on it, literally unusable. Then I flew NY to LA on Alaska. Woo WiFi that isn’t free so there’s bandwidth. Boo it’s $40 for the flight. How’s 20 bucks sound?
Nextgrid 7y ago
The problem with public Wi-Fi (not just on airplanes) is that there's no guarantee about what you're gonna get in terms of bandwidth or if there are any limitations or restrictions. Most public Wi-Fi for example blocks video websites such as YouTube and Netflix - if the network is paid you only find out after you've paid with no easy way to get a refund. I get why they're blocking them, but I feel like a better solution would just be to split the bandwidth evenly and give every user a guaranteed bandwidth on which they're allowed to do anything they want (since it won't disrupt other users as they can't use more than their allocated bandwidth). The bandwidth should be advertised upfront along with the price so any potential customers know what they're getting and whether it'll work for their application (if it's advertising 1Mbps I know I wouldn't be able to watch Netflix in HD, but it'll still be fine for e-mails and casual browsing). Authentication should also be improved; currently it's all captive portals which are hacks and inefficient for frequent users. If I'm commuting every day and happy to pay for your Wi-Fi just give me my own WPA2 Enterprise credentials (unique username/password) so my devices can connect seamlessly without any further action on my part.
- danilocesar 7y ago
  AirFrance gave me the option to get "Stream speed" in a flight from Paris to Sao Paulo a few days ago. By "stream speed" I assume it allows netflix. I didn't test it tough.
usamaabid 7y ago
I was reading up on this article the other day and was wondering if Li-Fi can be utilized for ATG or Satellite to Plane transmission. Will this increase stability of internet connection on the plane? https://www.eenewseurope.com/news/lifi-trialed-commercial-airplanes-0 https://www.eenewseurope.com/news/lifi-trialed-commercial-ai... I have personally experienced very slow and unstable connection even on the premium WiFi plan of American Airlines, Alaska, Etihad and Qatar Airways.
hoseja 7y ago
3. Starlink
- fsargent 7y ago
  Thank you. Was very disappointed to not find that in the discussion. Looks like it’s already being trialed for military C-12 planes. https://www.space.com/spacex-starlink-satellite-internet-service-2020.html https://www.space.com/spacex-starlink-satellite-internet-ser...
m-p-3 7y ago
It's nice that airlines are offering this and I'm sure there is a lot of people who benefit from this, but I guess I'm used to be prepared and have all the data I need cached on my system before I leave. And with FileVault/Bitlocker, I'm not too concerned in case of a theft. Google makes it quite easy these days with File Stream, Gmail offline mode, etc. And for multimedia, I just download / sync content I'm likely to watch beforehand on Netflix or Plex.

158 points by Anon84 7y ago

Vordax 7y ago

I wonder how SpaceX Starlink will disrupt the current players in this market.

ggm 7y ago
lowering RTT significantly would immediately alter the equation between ground facing and sat facing comms.
- tyingq 7y ago
  The lower bandwidth cost is a big deal as well. Though actively tracking and often swinging to new satellites while going 500mph, with the aircraft tilting and yawing is probably not easy.
  - dreamcompiler 7y ago
    It's not that hard with a phased array. Not trivial of course, and there are lots of subtleties (like handoff) but it's known engineering.
  - ch4ch4 7y ago
    Starlink receivers will use solid-state phased array beamforming antennae, so nothing has to physically "swing" to a new satellite. With a reasonably accurate accelerometer and inertial sensor, it's easy to compensate for aircraft movement.
    - ggm 7y ago
      I thought even the current GEO orbit antenna were phased array. If not, there might also be the point that the aerodynamics for a phased array shell may be less expensive on fuel burden (less air resistance, less turbulence) and lighter, so cheaper overall. (at a refit cost)
      - dreamcompiler 7y ago
        Most of the ones I've seen still have moving parts. They're clever mechanisms and are not as deep as a swinging dish, but they're still motorized.
      - tyingq 7y ago
        The Connexion antenna was all phased array with no tilt/yaw, but it was huge. The ones on aircraft now do track the satellite, tilt, etc.
    - tyingq 7y ago
      Ahh, that's helpful, but the spot size is likely pretty small, so there is probably some work on how to make the transition from spot to spot seamless.
      - nradov 7y ago
        Installing two antennas per aircraft could make the transitions pretty seamless, at the cost of a little extra weight and drag.
        dreamcompiler 7y ago
        That's how it will have to be done in any case. The only question is whether they'll split the phased array transducers in one large array to look at two satellites at once, or have two separate smaller arrays. Both approaches can be made to work, and the first is probably better aerodynamically.
    - hoseja 7y ago
      I don't think you'd even need that, the antenna can "simply" seek the strongest signal direction.
trixie_ 7y ago
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-spacex-starlink-airforce/musks-satellite-project-testing-encrypted-internet-with-military-planes-idUSKBN1X12KM https://www.reuters.com/article/us-spacex-starlink-airforce/...

ggm 7y ago

At one point connexion by boeing was doing some fearsome BGP re-steering to try and get traffic efficient ground station routing. I don't know how they did it (by hand?) or how well it worked, it was anecdata. I was also told the FAA at one point demanded all aircraft have the same IP and ASN. I suspect thats magnified bullshit but it is an interesting question, what FAA compliance in data services means for certifying a configuration which has to be mutable as you move, as aircraft change lease, as ISPs come and go.

tyingq 7y ago
I doubt the FAA got involved with IP addresses and BGP. They do care about airgapping , heat, grounding, electrical, antenna radomes and hull integrity, etc.

air7 7y ago

> Surfing the internet at 35,000 feet is now something that we expect on flights. Not only do I not expect this, I actually dread the time when it is ubiquitous and free. Flying is really a unique experience in that it forces you to sit still, disconnect and entertain yourself for a substantial period. This has a meditative element for me: I have time to not be updated, to gaze, to talk to strangers, to be bored... All the things people used to do in the long long ago. It gives flying a kind of sublime quality because it prepares me mentally for arriving at a completely different place than the one I left. It's not just a continuous Instagram fueled frenzy like any other day. Of course I can choose to not use my phone/internet at any time, but it's so much harder that it loses its entire allure: Instead of just disengaging I'm constantly fighting the urge and telling myself "No!". Once it's available on board I won't be able to resist.

xwdv 7y ago
If you want this go on a cruise for a week and disconnect yourself. Don’t buy the WiFi package, tell everyone you’re in the middle of an ocean, gone. I don’t get why people treat flying so ceremoniously; it’s a glorified bus ride. I still got shit to do, and I need access to resources. It is a waste of time to burn 6 hours when flying cross country for nothing. I could get a lot done in that time.
- mehrdadn 7y ago
  Cruises come with a lot more baggage than just disconnecting yourself for a week.
- teflodollar 7y ago
  A cheaper way would be to just go camping. I agree with parent, planes are a great space to focus for me. I don't think there's anywhere else that I've done so much heavy reading. The lack of connection and the white noise of the engines make it the perfect place to zone in (or zone out!).
- ggm 7y ago
  I travel for work 20 years, 6-7 internationals per year (or more) and I can tell you 1) its not always cross country and 2) sleep is possibly the most important thing you can do, if you need to move timezones and be alert and working when you get there. I do work in the air. I've had other passengers complain about my keyboard volume. I also now pace it, police it and don't try to over-do it: The spam-can is not condusive to good work outcomes always. Its ok for reading and reflection, and oftentimes they don't depend on connectivity.

tyingq 7y ago

Most of why WiFi on aircraft sucks is because airlines went too early. To be fair, they had to guess. The better Ka band satellite experience wasn't ready when most airlines made their initial choice, so most of them went with either Ku band satellite or air to ground cellular. Both have either technical or cost barriers to deliver enough bandwidth. And, the cost for the hardware, FAA certification, and long aircraft downtimes to get it all installed and working was really high. So they have to recoup all that before upgrading. JetBlue guessed better with the timing, waiting until it was ready, so their experience is better, and pricing isn't terrible as compared to others. I feel like Southwest made a decent compromise. They went Ku, but use a separate transponder to give away TV and movies at no charge, and a small slice of bandwidth to give iMessage and whatsApp for free. The paid wifi is slow, but comparitively cheap. The airlines that went with AirCell/GoGo are the worst of the lot. Nothing for free, and the pricing is outrageous given the experience. Most airlines should be about ready to upgrade all the old stuff soon, so the experience should improve. Low orbit tech would help even more.

rootusrootus 7y ago
Alaska uses GoGo and they also give away iMessage for free. A weird side effect is that sometimes you get more than just free messaging. Every time I've used it, I get full Internet access (though it sure is slow). My wife's phone only ever gets iMessage. No idea why I get the accidental free upgrade.
- o-__-o 7y ago
  do you have tmobile? I think the service provider is related. on a side note, I've always gotten iMessage to work on southwest flights without paying. and on united you can get to certain google hosts without a paywall. I think that's all I'll share on here for now
  - bronco21016 7y ago
    As someone who practically lives on airliners equipped with GoGo I’m curious what else you have... What Google hosts work? Would creating a tunnel to something on GCE work?

thedudeabides5 7y ago

Pumped for the day when Roko's basilisk comes this close to taking over the world's financial system, but is thwarted by crappy airplane wifi. RB's up there excited, all ready to press the big red button after departing JFK in Air Force One, but can't because it forgot to download the mandatory app before take-off. Foiled again!

Dylan16807 7y ago
The term "basilisk" is referring to the thought experiment itself, not the AI, by the way. A basilisk is something where perceiving it damages you, more or less. The AI is nameless or might be referred to as Omega.
- thedudeabides5 7y ago
  ah my bad. guess that's why no one liked the joke. gotta be accurate with your Omega jokes on HN or people will shred you.

trixie_ 7y ago

Just flew from LA to Boston on JetBlue. Woo free WiFi. Boo everyone is on it, literally unusable. Then I flew NY to LA on Alaska. Woo WiFi that isn’t free so there’s bandwidth. Boo it’s $40 for the flight. How’s 20 bucks sound?

Nextgrid 7y ago

The problem with public Wi-Fi (not just on airplanes) is that there's no guarantee about what you're gonna get in terms of bandwidth or if there are any limitations or restrictions. Most public Wi-Fi for example blocks video websites such as YouTube and Netflix - if the network is paid you only find out after you've paid with no easy way to get a refund. I get why they're blocking them, but I feel like a better solution would just be to split the bandwidth evenly and give every user a guaranteed bandwidth on which they're allowed to do anything they want (since it won't disrupt other users as they can't use more than their allocated bandwidth). The bandwidth should be advertised upfront along with the price so any potential customers know what they're getting and whether it'll work for their application (if it's advertising 1Mbps I know I wouldn't be able to watch Netflix in HD, but it'll still be fine for e-mails and casual browsing). Authentication should also be improved; currently it's all captive portals which are hacks and inefficient for frequent users. If I'm commuting every day and happy to pay for your Wi-Fi just give me my own WPA2 Enterprise credentials (unique username/password) so my devices can connect seamlessly without any further action on my part.

danilocesar 7y ago
AirFrance gave me the option to get "Stream speed" in a flight from Paris to Sao Paulo a few days ago. By "stream speed" I assume it allows netflix. I didn't test it tough.

usamaabid 7y ago

I was reading up on this article the other day and was wondering if Li-Fi can be utilized for ATG or Satellite to Plane transmission. Will this increase stability of internet connection on the plane? https://www.eenewseurope.com/news/lifi-trialed-commercial-airplanes-0 https://www.eenewseurope.com/news/lifi-trialed-commercial-ai... I have personally experienced very slow and unstable connection even on the premium WiFi plan of American Airlines, Alaska, Etihad and Qatar Airways.

hoseja 7y ago

3. Starlink

fsargent 7y ago
Thank you. Was very disappointed to not find that in the discussion. Looks like it’s already being trialed for military C-12 planes. https://www.space.com/spacex-starlink-satellite-internet-service-2020.html https://www.space.com/spacex-starlink-satellite-internet-ser...

m-p-3 7y ago

It's nice that airlines are offering this and I'm sure there is a lot of people who benefit from this, but I guess I'm used to be prepared and have all the data I need cached on my system before I leave. And with FileVault/Bitlocker, I'm not too concerned in case of a theft. Google makes it quite easy these days with File Stream, Gmail offline mode, etc. And for multimedia, I just download / sync content I'm likely to watch beforehand on Netflix or Plex.