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I had a very nice Sharp Aquos TV for a long time. One of the first reasonably priced 1080p 65" TVs. It had absolutely no "smart" features, which was perfectly f

I had a very nice Sharp Aquos TV for a long time. One of the first reasonably priced 1080p 65" TVs. It had absolutely no "smart" features, which was perfectly fine with me. I have my TV hooked up to a home theatre system and have my devices (PS4/AppleTV/XB1/Nvidia Shield) hooked up to that. I recently upgraded to a LG 4K OLED TV. It's an absolutely gorgeous TV, but, I absolutely lament the "smart" features of this TV. I get software update prompts on a regular basis for software I don't use (I'm sure there would be some for the base system anyway, but, an order of magnitude less). The prompts when setting up the TV to accept myriad EULAs are obnoxious. Pop-ups advertising "features" on my TV which I don't want? Ugh. I really want either a manufacturer who resells these panels with 0 features, or a mode from LG which disables all of this. "Lock to HDMI1 and disable everything but color management features". More on-topic with the article: I'm a pretty tech and legally-savvy guy, but, even I'm not sure I've toggled the correct order of knobs and declined the correct EULAs to disable that tracking. Moreover, I'm exactly 0% sure that someone else didn't try to watch Netflix (via the TV and not the AppleTV/Shield/PS4/etc) and wasn't prompted to accept EULAs to do that. My point is, if I can't even do this properly, normal people have a near 0% chance of disabling tracking. That said, it's a fantastically gorgeous panel. I've had a lot of fun re-watching older favorite movies in 4K.

unstatusthequo 7y ago
Yeah even when toggling options to stop tracking, I don’t trust it. I will usually find what it calls out to and block it on my home network with Pi-Hole. I also am moving to projector which may have less “smart” bs crammed in there. But, I haven’t researched that yet to see if that’s true or not.
- AdamJacobMuller 7y ago
  I don't think the options are blatantly false, the legal teams at these respective companies would never allow them to be demonstrably false. I do think they are as confusing as possible and designed to be as difficult as possible to place in "max privacy" mode and as easy as possible to place in "max tracking" mode. > block it on my home network with Pi-Hole That's a really good idea. I just configured my firewall (Palo Alto) to block the TV, I'm not sure why I didn't think of that.
  - shyn3 7y ago
    Look through this, they seem to connect to open WiFi networks. [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/privacy/comments/bpr6xs/if_you_choose_to_not_connect_your_samsung_smart/ https://www.reddit.com/r/privacy/comments/bpr6xs/if_you_choo...
    - Silhouette 7y ago
      I've been arguing for a long time that the "don't connect it to your network" defence was insufficient because sooner or later these devices will simply start including their own connectivity as well. Various other categories of device, notably cars, already do, and frequently abuse it for tracking purposes. My take on this is that we should impose the kind of draconian restrictions we have here in the UK on products like cigarettes. You can buy them, age restrictions permitting, but they are legally required to cover a large part of their packaging with prominent disclosures of the harm they cause. If devices with consumer-hostile measures like phone home functionality were similarly required to disclose it, and exactly what it is doing, on their packaging and other promotional materials, average consumers might start asking more questions instead of just the relatively small and so usually insignificant class of techie consumers. If that still didn't produce meaningful competition, outright prohibition by law might be the only solution.
      - asdfasgasdgasdg 7y ago
        "We collect viewing data when you use our TV in order to recommend other content you might like" will probably not really move the needle for most consumers.
        Silhouette 7y ago
        And if it doesn't and they accept that by genuine choice, that's fine, it's an informed decision. But equally, maybe some people wouldn't be comfortable with, "This device contains a camera and microphone that are always on and an independent Internet connection that you cannot block. We cannot guarantee that the software in this device is 100% secure and we only guarantee to update that software for 12 months after the date of purchase. We do not control some online services used by this device and Internet-connected features of this device might break at any time with no way to fix them. There is a {regulator-imposed description/statistic} chance that someone will be able to hack your device, watch and listen to the area around it including other nearby rooms, and provide hackers with access to any other devices and activity on your home network. This device will upload information about what you watch and when to {names of business(es)}, which will use the data to profile you including guessing your family make-up, wealth, interests and vulnerability to advertising, and this information will be sold to {list of recipients} who may use it to {purposes}."
DrPhish 7y ago
What you are looking for are called "Commercial Displays" or "Digital Signage" Expect to pay a premium, but they are generally simple panels built to endure a very heavy duty cycle and harsher-than-a-living-room environment
- troydavis 7y ago
  I looked in to this and at least for large sizes as of earlier this year, commercial displays aren't practical. The premium isn't 10% or 20% (which I'd gladly pay to omit "features" that disclose data to third parties), it's $2000-$5000 (60%-150%). Also, for that massive premium, commercial displays often don't include HDR, HDMI features (CEC, ARC), and sometimes even 4k. They aren't a realistic solution.
- AdamJacobMuller 7y ago
  The panels aren't nearly as nice as the ones you can get on consumer TVs. LG C9 OLED is a thing to behold.
WA 7y ago
Which model is it?
NeedMoreTea 7y ago
I think we've reached the point where the only safe way of buying a TV is to buy a business conference room display or large screen monitor instead. Seems to be the only way to get something without all the dystopian crap.
- pimeys 7y ago
  But then you're losing all of the goodies for movies and games, such as proper color space or contrast. Usually the business TVs are anything but good for movies.
  - Sharlin 7y ago
    But consumer TVs nowadays come with absolutely hideous defaults, with color, contrast and sharpness adjusted to first and foremost compete for attention against other manufacturers on store shelves. It's gotten bad enough that stores now offer adjustment services — for a price, obviously — just to get the picture to look the way it should in the first place!
    - jmccorm 7y ago
      You’re absolutely right. Commonly referred to as “scorch” mode.
    - MagnumPIG 7y ago
      The factory tint setting is always too high!
  - namibj 7y ago
    I will counter with the Iiyama prolite x4071uhsu-b1, the highest-contrast (5000:1 typ) LCD I have ever seen with such a competitive sticker price. 500~600$ 4k 40". Up to 75Hz @24bit color or 60Hz @40bit color. It has zero smart stuff, and comes with an RS232 input for which documentation exists to control _everything_ remotely. I think the latter is due to it's brother being a 24/7 rated digital signage device, which typically implies remote management. I'm passively looking for a newer model for a potential secondary setup on a different desk/location, but haven't stumbled on anything I'd prefer.
wvenable 7y ago
> My point is, if I can't even do this properly, normal people have a near 0% chance of disabling tracking. The other point is that all these features are advertised on the box (Netflix, Alexa integration, etc) but you can't even use them unless you accept those EULA prompts.
- o-__-o 7y ago
  If you don’t accept you can return for a refund. Something tells me lots of ppl accept tho
ownagefool 7y ago
Yeah, I'd really like slightly better support for plugging in something smart into a dumb TV. In the UK, if my shield would show freeview TV channels I'd probably never need to leave the interface, and thus I'd be happy to lock a TV into a shield slave. Unfortunately it just doesn't work like that for us over here though.
- nr152522 7y ago
  I have a HD Homerun and the channels app for that. I’m using the shield exclusively for smart features and the OLED as a dumb display.
  - ownagefool 7y ago
    That's interesting. Thanks of making me aware.
tekstar 7y ago
I recently bought an LG OLED as well. I never connected it to my network and never will. It was a dark pattern during setup. The options were to connect via LAN or WIFI, and only by scrolling into "nothing" did a skip option appear. This ImO is the only option and even then I bet it's trying to exhilarate data by like trying to connect to a phone or high frequency audio or something.
- xwdv 7y ago
  How do you install firmware updates??
  - kspacewalk2 7y ago
    I bought a dumb tv in 2013 that I still use just fine without any firmware updates. It's a screen, it needs no updates.
    - o-__-o 7y ago
      I plugged in my pre-all-devices-spy 10 year old dumb tv to the network for the first time and now it hounds me for firmware updates.... I always reject because I don’t want it to learn how to spy on me. Pretty sure my firetv phones my hdmi content home
      - dghughes 7y ago
        Can't you set the onboard clock back a few years to fool it?
  - defen 7y ago
    If it's not on the network why would you need firmware updates? (serious question)
    - newnewpdro 7y ago
      Bugs affecting its base functionality?
glitchc 7y ago
Just unplug it from the network. That should get rid of most of it. I have an LG smart TV that has never seen the network. I get no ads, no popups, no features, no EULA, nothing. It behaves like a dumb TV. It was the LG 65UH series from Costco.
- codezero 7y ago
  I wonder if one day they’ll connect to other TVs that are online to get around the WiFi.
  - Scoundreller 7y ago
    Or have a GPS and realize that it’s been 12 months since their last mandatory update and lock you out.
    - SteveNuts 7y ago
      Why would you need a GPS for that?
      - tristor 7y ago
        GPS provides high quality RTC signals. So the TV could update its time with high accuracy via GPS and countdown a timer.
        SmellyGeekBoy 7y ago
        Thankfully the majority of people use their TV indoors.
        corint 7y ago
        All you need is to glimpse 1 satellite for a short while if you're looking for a roughly accurate time. You need 3 to get a position fix, but fewer will still give you the time.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
Fiahil 7y ago
I just bought a LG OLED as well. This screen is amazingly good ! I connected it to the network in order to watch netflix, and unchecked all tracking and advertising related EULAs. I'm also running a pihole on my network, so most third party ads will be denied from reaching the TV.
technofiend 7y ago
Just one humble non-lawyer's opinion but I'd love to see merchantability and fitness laws updated to explicitly bar reduced functionality without the forced exchange of consumer data, which is what's happening here. Manufacturers claim they are subsidizing the TVs via data collection, assuming that's true then banning the reduction of features unless the consumer opts in then raises the bar on every manufacturer. If TVs go back up in price so be it.

unstatusthequo 7y ago

Yeah even when toggling options to stop tracking, I don’t trust it. I will usually find what it calls out to and block it on my home network with Pi-Hole. I also am moving to projector which may have less “smart” bs crammed in there. But, I haven’t researched that yet to see if that’s true or not.

AdamJacobMuller 7y ago
I don't think the options are blatantly false, the legal teams at these respective companies would never allow them to be demonstrably false. I do think they are as confusing as possible and designed to be as difficult as possible to place in "max privacy" mode and as easy as possible to place in "max tracking" mode. > block it on my home network with Pi-Hole That's a really good idea. I just configured my firewall (Palo Alto) to block the TV, I'm not sure why I didn't think of that.
- shyn3 7y ago
  Look through this, they seem to connect to open WiFi networks. [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/privacy/comments/bpr6xs/if_you_choose_to_not_connect_your_samsung_smart/ https://www.reddit.com/r/privacy/comments/bpr6xs/if_you_choo...
  - Silhouette 7y ago
    I've been arguing for a long time that the "don't connect it to your network" defence was insufficient because sooner or later these devices will simply start including their own connectivity as well. Various other categories of device, notably cars, already do, and frequently abuse it for tracking purposes. My take on this is that we should impose the kind of draconian restrictions we have here in the UK on products like cigarettes. You can buy them, age restrictions permitting, but they are legally required to cover a large part of their packaging with prominent disclosures of the harm they cause. If devices with consumer-hostile measures like phone home functionality were similarly required to disclose it, and exactly what it is doing, on their packaging and other promotional materials, average consumers might start asking more questions instead of just the relatively small and so usually insignificant class of techie consumers. If that still didn't produce meaningful competition, outright prohibition by law might be the only solution.
    - asdfasgasdgasdg 7y ago
      "We collect viewing data when you use our TV in order to recommend other content you might like" will probably not really move the needle for most consumers.
      - Silhouette 7y ago
        And if it doesn't and they accept that by genuine choice, that's fine, it's an informed decision. But equally, maybe some people wouldn't be comfortable with, "This device contains a camera and microphone that are always on and an independent Internet connection that you cannot block. We cannot guarantee that the software in this device is 100% secure and we only guarantee to update that software for 12 months after the date of purchase. We do not control some online services used by this device and Internet-connected features of this device might break at any time with no way to fix them. There is a {regulator-imposed description/statistic} chance that someone will be able to hack your device, watch and listen to the area around it including other nearby rooms, and provide hackers with access to any other devices and activity on your home network. This device will upload information about what you watch and when to {names of business(es)}, which will use the data to profile you including guessing your family make-up, wealth, interests and vulnerability to advertising, and this information will be sold to {list of recipients} who may use it to {purposes}."

DrPhish 7y ago

What you are looking for are called "Commercial Displays" or "Digital Signage" Expect to pay a premium, but they are generally simple panels built to endure a very heavy duty cycle and harsher-than-a-living-room environment

troydavis 7y ago
I looked in to this and at least for large sizes as of earlier this year, commercial displays aren't practical. The premium isn't 10% or 20% (which I'd gladly pay to omit "features" that disclose data to third parties), it's $2000-$5000 (60%-150%). Also, for that massive premium, commercial displays often don't include HDR, HDMI features (CEC, ARC), and sometimes even 4k. They aren't a realistic solution.
AdamJacobMuller 7y ago
The panels aren't nearly as nice as the ones you can get on consumer TVs. LG C9 OLED is a thing to behold.

WA 7y ago

Which model is it?

NeedMoreTea 7y ago

I think we've reached the point where the only safe way of buying a TV is to buy a business conference room display or large screen monitor instead. Seems to be the only way to get something without all the dystopian crap.

pimeys 7y ago
But then you're losing all of the goodies for movies and games, such as proper color space or contrast. Usually the business TVs are anything but good for movies.
- Sharlin 7y ago
  But consumer TVs nowadays come with absolutely hideous defaults, with color, contrast and sharpness adjusted to first and foremost compete for attention against other manufacturers on store shelves. It's gotten bad enough that stores now offer adjustment services — for a price, obviously — just to get the picture to look the way it should in the first place!
  - jmccorm 7y ago
    You’re absolutely right. Commonly referred to as “scorch” mode.
  - MagnumPIG 7y ago
    The factory tint setting is always too high!
- namibj 7y ago
  I will counter with the Iiyama prolite x4071uhsu-b1, the highest-contrast (5000:1 typ) LCD I have ever seen with such a competitive sticker price. 500~600$ 4k 40". Up to 75Hz @24bit color or 60Hz @40bit color. It has zero smart stuff, and comes with an RS232 input for which documentation exists to control _everything_ remotely. I think the latter is due to it's brother being a 24/7 rated digital signage device, which typically implies remote management. I'm passively looking for a newer model for a potential secondary setup on a different desk/location, but haven't stumbled on anything I'd prefer.

wvenable 7y ago

> My point is, if I can't even do this properly, normal people have a near 0% chance of disabling tracking. The other point is that all these features are advertised on the box (Netflix, Alexa integration, etc) but you can't even use them unless you accept those EULA prompts.

o-__-o 7y ago
If you don’t accept you can return for a refund. Something tells me lots of ppl accept tho

ownagefool 7y ago

Yeah, I'd really like slightly better support for plugging in something smart into a dumb TV. In the UK, if my shield would show freeview TV channels I'd probably never need to leave the interface, and thus I'd be happy to lock a TV into a shield slave. Unfortunately it just doesn't work like that for us over here though.

nr152522 7y ago
I have a HD Homerun and the channels app for that. I’m using the shield exclusively for smart features and the OLED as a dumb display.
- ownagefool 7y ago
  That's interesting. Thanks of making me aware.

tekstar 7y ago

I recently bought an LG OLED as well. I never connected it to my network and never will. It was a dark pattern during setup. The options were to connect via LAN or WIFI, and only by scrolling into "nothing" did a skip option appear. This ImO is the only option and even then I bet it's trying to exhilarate data by like trying to connect to a phone or high frequency audio or something.

xwdv 7y ago
How do you install firmware updates??
- kspacewalk2 7y ago
  I bought a dumb tv in 2013 that I still use just fine without any firmware updates. It's a screen, it needs no updates.
  - o-__-o 7y ago
    I plugged in my pre-all-devices-spy 10 year old dumb tv to the network for the first time and now it hounds me for firmware updates.... I always reject because I don’t want it to learn how to spy on me. Pretty sure my firetv phones my hdmi content home
    - dghughes 7y ago
      Can't you set the onboard clock back a few years to fool it?
- defen 7y ago
  If it's not on the network why would you need firmware updates? (serious question)
  - newnewpdro 7y ago
    Bugs affecting its base functionality?

glitchc 7y ago

Just unplug it from the network. That should get rid of most of it. I have an LG smart TV that has never seen the network. I get no ads, no popups, no features, no EULA, nothing. It behaves like a dumb TV. It was the LG 65UH series from Costco.

codezero 7y ago
I wonder if one day they’ll connect to other TVs that are online to get around the WiFi.
- Scoundreller 7y ago
  Or have a GPS and realize that it’s been 12 months since their last mandatory update and lock you out.
  - SteveNuts 7y ago
    Why would you need a GPS for that?
    - tristor 7y ago
      GPS provides high quality RTC signals. So the TV could update its time with high accuracy via GPS and countdown a timer.
      - SmellyGeekBoy 7y ago
        Thankfully the majority of people use their TV indoors.
        corint 7y ago
        All you need is to glimpse 1 satellite for a short while if you're looking for a roughly accurate time. You need 3 to get a position fix, but fewer will still give you the time.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

Fiahil 7y ago

I just bought a LG OLED as well. This screen is amazingly good ! I connected it to the network in order to watch netflix, and unchecked all tracking and advertising related EULAs. I'm also running a pihole on my network, so most third party ads will be denied from reaching the TV.

technofiend 7y ago

Just one humble non-lawyer's opinion but I'd love to see merchantability and fitness laws updated to explicitly bar reduced functionality without the forced exchange of consumer data, which is what's happening here. Manufacturers claim they are subsidizing the TVs via data collection, assuming that's true then banning the reduction of features unless the consumer opts in then raises the bar on every manufacturer. If TVs go back up in price so be it.