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Health Concerns Mount as More Old Sewer Pipes Are Lined with Plastic
- flaviu2 7y agoI haven't read 100% of the article, but from skimming over it, I see no mention of p-traps [1]. How exactly are these fumes getting into places when there's essentially an airlock in every drain connection? [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trap_(plumbing) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trap_(plumbing)
- arbitrage 7y ago> I haven't read 100% of the article The article states that airborne particles and gasses can travel quite a distance to affect people that aren't in the localized application area of the CIPP sites.
- flaviu2 7y agoah, I see. > Emissions from a nearby CIPP job got indoors through cracks in the building’s foundation and irritated workers to the point that they evacuated This is fascinating. I've always thought of dirt and concrete as being basically impenetrable to things like this, but apparently they're not!
- MS90 7y agoFrom the article, it doesn't sound like it's coming out of the drains. It sounds like chemicals are being released when they fill pipe sections with steam which then dissipates into the surrounding air. The fumes exposure is probably just due to the person's proximity to the job site, not from a plumbing connection.
- ryanobjc 7y agoSee my sibling comment - it’s entirely possible for fumes to enter their work via plumbing. So I’d really downgrade that “probably” - ambient outdoor exposure maybe, but the facts as presented better fits an indoor exposure during the day.
- mshook 7y agoBecause you need to vent the pipes. Otherwise the sewer system would just be a giant vacuum pump. It's even described in the article you mention. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drain-waste-vent_system https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drain-waste-vent_system
- flaviu2 7y agoI'm familiar with vents, but indoor vents are basically one-way air valves. I don't know if this is required by code, but it's definitely common practice (you don't want poop smell coming out of your vents)
- Scoundreller 7y agoVent stacks need to be above that roof’s line, but your building might be next door and taller with open windows downwind. Or a crack in the stack.
- BubRoss 7y agoThat isn't a good explanation, since venting should exit far above the building.
- ldiracdelta 7y agoIf they are using pressure in the system, the air/gas could bubble back through even a proper p-trap.
- ryanobjc 7y agoA p trap can dry out. In my case the resulting sewer gas introduced 120ppm of CO into that bathroom, which started to dissipate and set off CO alarms on the next floor up. This is common knowledge among the fire fighters here. They knew what was up once they found it. So, how could VOC be entering buildings where they’re doing CIPP retrofit? Now you know.
- Scoundreller 7y agoWhy was there CO in your sewer?
- serf 7y agocarbon monoxide can be found in trace amounts within septic tank gas accumulations. http://medcraveonline.com/JACCOA/JACCOA-06-00228.php http://medcraveonline.com/JACCOA/JACCOA-06-00228.php
- winrid 7y agoThe water in these can evaporate.
- RaceWon 7y ago> I see no mention of p-traps [1]. How exactly are these fumes getting into places when there's essentially an airlock in every drain connection? Well they are doing this because the underground piping is presumbly cracked and/or porous; this would enable fumes from the process to leech into buildings through the pipe walls. We are only protected from sewer gases if the entire system is air tight. It is also possible that her building had some issues with its plumbing; for instance I have seen fitures removed either during renovation or even on a permanant basis that were not properly capped off--while there would be some constant leakage of sewer gas it is really not dangerous (or even that noxious) in low concentrations; the chemicals used in the lining process however might be.
- Spooky23 7y agoThis isn't in the building, it's way that municipal utilities retrofit pipes in the street that are leaking. If they catch the leak before it collapses, they are able to inject this sleeve and basically put a plastic cast inside the pipe. They did it on my block when I was telecommuting from my front porch. The smell comes from the excavation holes. It's loud process and they use high pressure air to do it. It smelled like somebody stained a deck, and lasted about a half hour. There was some residual smell that mostly went away after they covered the hole. You wouldn't know it had happened a few hours later. If you've ever dealt with the public with stuff, people freak out about anything smelly or any visible involving radio.
- RaceWon 7y ago> This isn't in the building, it's The building drainage system in many areas is not "protected" by a house trap. Many municipalities require a backwater water valve which is essentially a check valve with a mechanical moving part. I can easily envision (and I have held a Master Plumbers License) this failing. Furthermore once you trench to bring sewer, and water into a building (these services while in a manner of speaking are kept separate they often share a common or very nearby trench) it's very easy to not backfill properly thereby also allowing vapors to enter a structure in some instances. It depends: did they use dynamite to blast for the foundation or to bring in these services? There are all kinds of variables that could allow trench to building fumes. I agree people do freak involving odors, but on the other hand different people have different actual physical tolorances to chemicals.
- teekert 7y agoThey did this in my City (the Netherlands) the fumes were really bad for some days and seemed to penetrate houses very well.
- pkaye 7y agoFor a second, I though they were referring to the trenchless piping method used on the sewer lateral. They pull a plastic pipe with a winch through a older pipe with a metal head that expands out the old pipe. Fortunately there are no fumes during this process.
- code4tee 7y agoSounds like the building has other more serious plumbing issues. Gasses and odors of any type shouldn’t be able to work their way back into a building via the sewer pipes. The pipes in the building can’t leak and that’s one of the reasons why properly installed drains have traps. Code inspectors often use the “peppermint test” to test all the above. They dump concentrated peppermint oil into the sewer then go around the building and see if you can smell it. If you can then you have problems with the plumbing. Buildings having issues likely have bad plumbing and thus their occupants were likely breathing sewer gasses for ages... the “liner fumes” just made all this more obvious.
- jeffdavis 7y agoI was wondering the same thing. But do you think it's possible that this process causes backpressure that forces the gases through a trap? Maybe it shouldn't cause backpressure if done properly, but maybe some construction companies carelessly block one side of the pipe while it's curing?
- code4tee 7y agoWell if someone wasn’t following procedures then I suppose anything is possible. But the general premise of the article (that ‘fumes’ are making their way back into perfectly good buildings via the plumbing) is problematic.
- ars 7y agoDid we read the same article? They never once implied the fumes were entering via the plumbing. In fact I will quote: "Emissions from a nearby CIPP job got indoors through cracks in the building’s foundation and irritated workers to the point that they evacuated"
- Enginerrrd 7y agoI'd suspect it's more likely the opposite: as the pipe is dewatered it creates a negative pressure that pulls the water out of the p-traps which then temporarily allows gaseous exchange with the building air. EDIT: Nevermind, I originally was thinking that a sufficiently negative pressure differential could overwhelm the capacity of the vent. But the more I think about it, the pressure range that I'd expect even with an unusual operation probably wouldn't be far enough outside normal range to do that. ...although there are definitely still some possibilities to do some stupid.
- purplezooey 7y agoSeems like if we can just let people know ahead of time to not go inside for a while you'd be good.
- muthas 7y agoA couple items to note here: - while agreed that a trap should help contain gasses, in order to cure the resin involved they have to inject high-pressure steam into the piping... possible that it could cause bubbles to pass through functional traps - even if the trap system worked perfectly, the fumes from the cure process get vented to the local atmosphere through outlets set up during the CIPP process. This exposes workers to the largest amount of byproduct chemical vapors, but it's entirely reasonable to think that it could get accumulated or trapped in buildings as well. The CDC has a good article about this very topic: https://blogs.cdc.gov/niosh-science-blog/2017/09/26/cipp/ https://blogs.cdc.gov/niosh-science-blog/2017/09/26/cipp/
- throw3737273728 7y agoI caught a whiff of this venting to the local atmosphere in downtown SF a few years ago, and it was shocking. The smell is so strong and noxious you can’t believe that there isn’t some serious problem happening in your midst. No warning either. It’s about as frightened of a smell as I’ve ever been.
- Reason077 7y agoWhy do people act surprised when “a noxious odour that smells like paint thinner” makes them feel sick?
- 0xADADA 7y agoany great empire expands until it can no longer afford the maintenance of its own infrastructure, at which point it collapses under its own corpulence.
- 3fe9a03ccd14ca5 7y ago“Societies grow inexorably more complex until one day they become really simple again (collapse)”
- 3fe9a03ccd14ca5 7y ago> The sleeve hardens to form a continuous plastic liner along the old pipe’s inner walls. I didn’t finish reading the article, but this sounds amazing. Isn’t plastic one of the least reactive materials we know about and an excellent choice for this? It seems like maybe the issue is in the curing process.
- Havoc 7y agoThis aside...hows the general plastic pipes & microplastics situation?
- AlleyTrotter 7y agoNo mention of the actual chemicals being used. Seems they would at least include the MSDS sheets for the process for a well researched article.
- therealcamino 7y agoThe article mentions a number of chemicals and links to a paper describing the emissions at the job sites.
- supercommand 7y agoIt should be noted the fumes are from the cast in place pipe liner (cipp) which is a Fiberglas style sock that is pulled through the existing pipe and then filled with compressed steam. This has quite a few voc’s that really give your stomach a churn if you are in close proximity.
- aaron695 7y agoMaybe is a Russian listening device with unintended side effects like in Cuba? That would explain why 'workers' aren't dropping dead and people far away under the cube law are legitimately sick?
- baybal2 7y agoI found irrational preference for "retrofit" and "intermediate" solutions over proper replacement even costs are unfavourable rather puzzling. ADSL — often required new wiring or a DSLAM on premises to deliver acceptable signal DOCSiS — same, you have to rewire all coax in the building to deploy it. House heat insulation — often ends up with inefficient house designs perpetuating because of hopes "we can always add insulation later" Piping — used to work in a trade company in Canada for half a year as an intern. Tried to import and popularise polypropylene piping there. Got hit by ferocious marketing FUD counterattack by a company selling crap PVC piping in a month after I sent booklets to prospective clients. Their main argument was that "PVC piping is a cheaper "intermediary" solution for plastic piping as PVC pipe can still be joined by plain mechanical means, unlike polypropylene" even when doing so negates their entire point of using plastic piping for its physically continuous joints.
- engineer_22 7y agoI'm a professional engineer with experience on these types of projects. CIPP has been used since the 80s, in the US as well as Europe (and I presume Asia and Oceania). Originally it was done with hot water, though steam curing processes have an economic advantage today. UV curing processes are now wide spread as well. In the steam curing process high temperature water is circulated through the pipe to cause the resin compound to catalyze (industry term is "kick"). Steam is not allowed to escape from the liner into any sewer laterals. In fact, sewer laterals are plugged by the liner and have to be reinstated (cut out) by a robot afterwards. At the end of the process the steam is released to atmosphere, it tends to have an odor. From my understanding the odor is styrene, a common industrial solvent. Sometimes people with flaws in their plumbing report the odor is coming from the drain. This indicates they could potentially have a more serious issue: chronic exposure to sewer gases. I always recommend they have a plumber investigate. Other times the airborne plume is enough to cause very sensitive individuals to complain. There are many industry veterans who have been working with these materials for decades - if you were serious about studying the potential for harm, you would follow this group. They are the canary in the coal mine. Folks with only transient exposures are at very low likelihood of harm. The American Society of Civil Engineers gave the sewer systems in this country a grade of D+. Just above failing. In reality, and I see this every day, our sewer systems are in need of immediate overhaul. CIPP is a keystone technology for renewal of these assets, because excavation is too dangerous(!) and expensive to be our primary mode of repair. FYI - pipeline characterization and renewal is a growth industry with a lot of opportunity for AI. In my opinion, a lot of these processes could be automated. Video below shows the CIPP process. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Swp81X4jSDk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Swp81X4jSDk
- abduhl 7y agoI don’t disagree with any of the substance of what you said (as someone who has also had tangential experience in sewer rehab work), but it’s worth pointing out that ASCE has a vested interest in constantly throwing out the “nearly failing” grades. I have never taken those reports seriously (even as a card carrying member) and I suggest nobody else do it either.
- flashman 7y ago
- randyrand 7y agoI thought plastic was inert?
- randyrand 7y ago“ Davis has recovered from most of what she says her doctor told her were neurological effects from a chemical exposure.” Is this another way of saying the placebo effect?
- source99 7y agoIf anyone is interested in the subject this is my company. www.sewerai.com