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There's no shortage of talent. If there was a shortage we would see real indicators of a shortage like increasing average salaries across the field, training pr

There's no shortage of talent. If there was a shortage we would see real indicators of a shortage like increasing average salaries across the field, training programs, etc. Instead employers consistently use bullshit to filter, puzzles without any relation to the job, etc in their hiring. That's a strong indicator that there's no shortage. If employers are making up things to filter candidates, then they have too many options. If I had to guess, this is probably just more propaganda from the large tech companies to get more people into the field and an increased visa cap, so they can drive down wages.

h3throw 7y ago
I don't understand people who say this. Have you ever tried to hire? I'm 28yrs old and I make ~$400K/yr. That doesn't happen when there's some major abundance of talent sitting around.
- rgbrenner 7y ago
  I make quite a bit too... but the average developer doesnt.. average US software dev salary is just $100k/year.
  - jimbokun 7y ago
    That's more than about 90% of US workers.
    - mikekchar 7y ago
      TL;DR (in advance): I think you are correct in your estimate, though household income is higher than that. $100K household income is still considerably higher than most Americans make. Just to give some real numbers, the median household income in the US is $63,688. Unfortunately I couldn't find reliable numbers for dual income families in the US, but it appears to be over 60% (I saw numbers anywhere between 60-69%, but unfortunately no authoritative references). Rough histogram of income distribution is: 10th percentile: < $15K 20th percentile: $15K <=> $25K 30th percentile: $25K <=> $35K 40th percentile: $35K <=> $50K 50th percentile: $50K <=> $65K 60th percentile: $65K <=> $80K 70th percentile: $80K <=> $130K 80th percentile: $130K <=> $160K 90th percentile: > $160K I constructed this from a variety of different sources since I couldn't find anything that stated it explicitly. It is not entirely accurate, but it should give you a rough idea of the distribution. Would be nice if someone could find better data.
      - scarface74 7y ago
        Just adding a reference. https://dqydj.com/average-median-top-household-income-percentiles/ https://dqydj.com/average-median-top-household-income-percen...
  - peruvian 7y ago
    That's twice the US household average even in big cities. Most workers will never make $100k.
  - perl4ever 7y ago
    Pay scale for programmers at large organizations I'm aware of starts around $55K and tops out around $100K. And non-profits or small businesses pay even less. I browse job ads on indeed frequently and see offerings in the $40-50K range for IT positions in the NYC area. What do people think that offshore employees of an American IT company are paid? I haven't any definite figures for places I've worked, but I have gotten the impression from Indian job ads that $10K/year is in the ballpark. Why would a typical company pay more than five times that for US-based employees?
    - scarface74 7y ago
      I’m nowhere near the west coast - I’m on the opposite coast. In most major cities in the US outside of the west coast your bog standard enterprise developers make $110K - $170K. This also excludes NYC.
      - perl4ever 7y ago
        The nice thing about standards is there are so many of them... ...and they don't have to represent more than a fraction of what's out there. Also, "bog standard" is not something real Amurricans recognize.
        scarface74 7y ago
        Well in the US, look at the top 20 cities for developers - a simple Google search and then go to salary.com. That range is average. As far “bog standard”, I’m referring to a CRUD developer doing “enterprise software” that may never see the light of day outside of the company or your yet another software as a service developer. They don’t spend all day worrying about “computer science” and algorithms and they don’t spend time worrying about the complexity of reversing a b-tree on a whiteboard.
        perl4ever 7y ago
        Look at it this way, what I think you're talking about requires roughly the same level of talent as being a decent mechanic, electrician, or whatever, and clients get billed about the same per hour, like $100-150. So, if we pretend we don't have preconceptions, and with the knowledge that the programmers are competing with people who are paid $5/hr, whereas my other examples aren't, does it make sense that they would be paid much more than $50-100K on average?
- sys_64738 7y ago
  You're more than likely the exception so enjoy it while you're still a youngster as the next generation to replace you will be along shortly. I hope with that amount of finance behind you that you are self-sufficient if it suddenly vanished. It will.
  - h3throw 7y ago
    Thanks for the completely uninformed prognostication on my future income! I will definitely not keep it in mind.
  - NotSammyHagar 7y ago
    I have wondered what my secret sauce is. Mid 50s, worked my way through a series of jobs with several faangs, now doing the latest of several 2 year stints at startups. You can make well over 200k in cash comp at startups in west cost cities. I guess I have good exp by this point.
    - sys_64738 7y ago
      There are always outliers but tell me this, is $200k really worth it on the left coast? Life is too short for that.
      - NotSammyHagar 7y ago
        You actually make way more than that if you are reasonably experienced. If you have 20 years experience your goal should be 400-500k+ total comp (ie actual valuable stock like you get from amazon or microsoft, not worthless future vapor startup stock). I like living here, but no place is perfect for everyone. My house tripled in value, my kids are getting a good education. I wish there was less growth though.
- cvhashim 7y ago
  Are those wages sustainable?
- sjg007 7y ago
  Where regionally and in what market?
- astura 7y ago
  As an average employee? Is your company VC funded?
- nradov 7y ago
  I've done a fair amount of hiring. It's usually pretty easy. The managers complaining about it are just bad at their jobs or work for employers with bad reputations. Don't take their whining too seriously.
- halfjoking 7y ago
  Yes - the 5% of elite devs have seen a dramatic increase in salary recently. You're one of them. The rest of us do not make that and haven't seen much change in wages in the last 5-10 years. At most in the midwest I'd top out at $150k as a Senior dev and that's if I busted my ass. The exception is if I worked for FANG but just like me, 95% of devs couldn't pass a FANG interview even if they put in some real effort. Personally my dream is to have a side-business anyway, so I put up with my $100k salary because it's low-stress and I have energy for my own projects. If there was a real shortage I would be paid more. But there isn't a shortage for average devs who get shit done. Google just wants the top 5%. Google's hiring is like if Google visited a homeless dog shelter and said to the employee (Federal Gov) that there's not enough cute puppies. "We need to import some dogs from Asia. There's a cute-puppy shortage here, let's get some Visas for more dogs." You're just f-ing picky Google. Those dogs in the shelter are good dogs.
vsskanth 7y ago
> If there was a shortage we would see real indicators of a shortage like increasing average salaries across the field, training programs, etc. Isn't this happening right now in software with coding bootcamps and no minimum degree reqs ? What's the new grad salary for an engineer at a top N firm in 2019 compared to 2011 ?
- filoleg 7y ago
  >What's the new grad salary for an engineer at a top N firm in 2019 compared to 2011 ? Fully agreed with you. You don't even need to go as far as 2011. Even compared to 3 years ago, new grad comp is noticeably higher at top N tech companies now than it was back then.
  - codingslave 7y ago
    Software compensation is bimodal. The top 5% all make over 200k a year, no matter how many years of experience they have. The bottom 95% mostly make less than that, and never will make more than 225k.
    - filoleg 7y ago
      The parent question was about the stagnation of total comp in top N tech companies, which I directly addressed.
rednerrus 7y ago
Good luck trying to hire someone. We are seeing Devops Engineers with 4 years of experience requesting >$150k (no in the bay).
- kangnkodos 7y ago
  Yes. This is the key. It is difficult to hire when you are given the two constraints that the person must have high skills, and accept a relatively low wage. I see it as a matrix with two axes. Salary: High/Low Skills and Training: High specific skills/Low skills and require training after being hired This creates four different quadrants. 1) When companies say they are having difficultly hiring, what they really mean is they are having difficulty hiring someone with specific high skills at a relatively low salary. 2) If the company is willing to pay a much higher salary, then the company will not have a problem finding someone. 3) If the company is willing to hire someone with less skill, and train them on the job, then the company will not have a problem finding someone. 4) If the company does both, pays a relatively high wage, and is willing to take someone with less skill, and train them on the job, then the company will not have a problem finding someone.
purplezooey 7y ago
Yes, if you have dumbass hiring processes, it's a business deficiency just like any other, wasteful spending, etc.
mianos 7y ago
The 'puzzle' part is the best filter for them. Any professional programmer who has spent many years writing stock exchanges/banks/financial systems has not had any recent practice delving into the intricacies of the most commonly provided abstract data types. They probably have come across concurrency and synchronisation problems for which there is no simple one line answer so those questions don't get asked. I can't recall the last time someone told me 'this std::map or python dict()' is not fast enough, can you delve into it and make a better one. The skill is in the selection considering the big picture. Some recent graduate will have looked at all this recently and easily pass this barrier, get the job and move on in a short amount of time while they can. Is there a IT staff shortage? There probably is a shortage of people who don't spend their spare time on hacker-rank or don't really feel motivated enough to spend a day on a bullshit contrived project. There are plenty of you people who don't mind.
skwb 7y ago
Bingo! And it's not just in tech/IT, but in other related fields as well. The real answer is that the Fed has been a bit overly skittish when it comes to balancing economic growth vs. inflation, despite real inflation remaining at very low rates over the past decade. https://www.vox.com/2019/1/7/18166951/skills-gap-modestino-shoag-ballance https://www.vox.com/2019/1/7/18166951/skills-gap-modestino-s...
ijiiijji1 7y ago
They want an oversupply because they want to drive engineering wages down as close to minimum wage / slavery as possible. Underpaying young foreigners remotely is the typical approach used.

h3throw 7y ago

I don't understand people who say this. Have you ever tried to hire? I'm 28yrs old and I make ~$400K/yr. That doesn't happen when there's some major abundance of talent sitting around.

rgbrenner 7y ago
I make quite a bit too... but the average developer doesnt.. average US software dev salary is just $100k/year.
- jimbokun 7y ago
  That's more than about 90% of US workers.
  - mikekchar 7y ago
    TL;DR (in advance): I think you are correct in your estimate, though household income is higher than that. $100K household income is still considerably higher than most Americans make. Just to give some real numbers, the median household income in the US is $63,688. Unfortunately I couldn't find reliable numbers for dual income families in the US, but it appears to be over 60% (I saw numbers anywhere between 60-69%, but unfortunately no authoritative references). Rough histogram of income distribution is: 10th percentile: < $15K 20th percentile: $15K <=> $25K 30th percentile: $25K <=> $35K 40th percentile: $35K <=> $50K 50th percentile: $50K <=> $65K 60th percentile: $65K <=> $80K 70th percentile: $80K <=> $130K 80th percentile: $130K <=> $160K 90th percentile: > $160K I constructed this from a variety of different sources since I couldn't find anything that stated it explicitly. It is not entirely accurate, but it should give you a rough idea of the distribution. Would be nice if someone could find better data.
    - scarface74 7y ago
      Just adding a reference. https://dqydj.com/average-median-top-household-income-percentiles/ https://dqydj.com/average-median-top-household-income-percen...
- peruvian 7y ago
  That's twice the US household average even in big cities. Most workers will never make $100k.
- perl4ever 7y ago
  Pay scale for programmers at large organizations I'm aware of starts around $55K and tops out around $100K. And non-profits or small businesses pay even less. I browse job ads on indeed frequently and see offerings in the $40-50K range for IT positions in the NYC area. What do people think that offshore employees of an American IT company are paid? I haven't any definite figures for places I've worked, but I have gotten the impression from Indian job ads that $10K/year is in the ballpark. Why would a typical company pay more than five times that for US-based employees?
  - scarface74 7y ago
    I’m nowhere near the west coast - I’m on the opposite coast. In most major cities in the US outside of the west coast your bog standard enterprise developers make $110K - $170K. This also excludes NYC.
    - perl4ever 7y ago
      The nice thing about standards is there are so many of them... ...and they don't have to represent more than a fraction of what's out there. Also, "bog standard" is not something real Amurricans recognize.
      - scarface74 7y ago
        Well in the US, look at the top 20 cities for developers - a simple Google search and then go to salary.com. That range is average. As far “bog standard”, I’m referring to a CRUD developer doing “enterprise software” that may never see the light of day outside of the company or your yet another software as a service developer. They don’t spend all day worrying about “computer science” and algorithms and they don’t spend time worrying about the complexity of reversing a b-tree on a whiteboard.
        perl4ever 7y ago
        Look at it this way, what I think you're talking about requires roughly the same level of talent as being a decent mechanic, electrician, or whatever, and clients get billed about the same per hour, like $100-150. So, if we pretend we don't have preconceptions, and with the knowledge that the programmers are competing with people who are paid $5/hr, whereas my other examples aren't, does it make sense that they would be paid much more than $50-100K on average?
sys_64738 7y ago
You're more than likely the exception so enjoy it while you're still a youngster as the next generation to replace you will be along shortly. I hope with that amount of finance behind you that you are self-sufficient if it suddenly vanished. It will.
- h3throw 7y ago
  Thanks for the completely uninformed prognostication on my future income! I will definitely not keep it in mind.
- NotSammyHagar 7y ago
  I have wondered what my secret sauce is. Mid 50s, worked my way through a series of jobs with several faangs, now doing the latest of several 2 year stints at startups. You can make well over 200k in cash comp at startups in west cost cities. I guess I have good exp by this point.
  - sys_64738 7y ago
    There are always outliers but tell me this, is $200k really worth it on the left coast? Life is too short for that.
    - NotSammyHagar 7y ago
      You actually make way more than that if you are reasonably experienced. If you have 20 years experience your goal should be 400-500k+ total comp (ie actual valuable stock like you get from amazon or microsoft, not worthless future vapor startup stock). I like living here, but no place is perfect for everyone. My house tripled in value, my kids are getting a good education. I wish there was less growth though.
cvhashim 7y ago
Are those wages sustainable?
sjg007 7y ago
Where regionally and in what market?
astura 7y ago
As an average employee? Is your company VC funded?
nradov 7y ago
I've done a fair amount of hiring. It's usually pretty easy. The managers complaining about it are just bad at their jobs or work for employers with bad reputations. Don't take their whining too seriously.
halfjoking 7y ago
Yes - the 5% of elite devs have seen a dramatic increase in salary recently. You're one of them. The rest of us do not make that and haven't seen much change in wages in the last 5-10 years. At most in the midwest I'd top out at $150k as a Senior dev and that's if I busted my ass. The exception is if I worked for FANG but just like me, 95% of devs couldn't pass a FANG interview even if they put in some real effort. Personally my dream is to have a side-business anyway, so I put up with my $100k salary because it's low-stress and I have energy for my own projects. If there was a real shortage I would be paid more. But there isn't a shortage for average devs who get shit done. Google just wants the top 5%. Google's hiring is like if Google visited a homeless dog shelter and said to the employee (Federal Gov) that there's not enough cute puppies. "We need to import some dogs from Asia. There's a cute-puppy shortage here, let's get some Visas for more dogs." You're just f-ing picky Google. Those dogs in the shelter are good dogs.

vsskanth 7y ago

> If there was a shortage we would see real indicators of a shortage like increasing average salaries across the field, training programs, etc. Isn't this happening right now in software with coding bootcamps and no minimum degree reqs ? What's the new grad salary for an engineer at a top N firm in 2019 compared to 2011 ?

filoleg 7y ago
>What's the new grad salary for an engineer at a top N firm in 2019 compared to 2011 ? Fully agreed with you. You don't even need to go as far as 2011. Even compared to 3 years ago, new grad comp is noticeably higher at top N tech companies now than it was back then.
- codingslave 7y ago
  Software compensation is bimodal. The top 5% all make over 200k a year, no matter how many years of experience they have. The bottom 95% mostly make less than that, and never will make more than 225k.
  - filoleg 7y ago
    The parent question was about the stagnation of total comp in top N tech companies, which I directly addressed.

rednerrus 7y ago

Good luck trying to hire someone. We are seeing Devops Engineers with 4 years of experience requesting >$150k (no in the bay).

kangnkodos 7y ago
Yes. This is the key. It is difficult to hire when you are given the two constraints that the person must have high skills, and accept a relatively low wage. I see it as a matrix with two axes. Salary: High/Low Skills and Training: High specific skills/Low skills and require training after being hired This creates four different quadrants. 1) When companies say they are having difficultly hiring, what they really mean is they are having difficulty hiring someone with specific high skills at a relatively low salary. 2) If the company is willing to pay a much higher salary, then the company will not have a problem finding someone. 3) If the company is willing to hire someone with less skill, and train them on the job, then the company will not have a problem finding someone. 4) If the company does both, pays a relatively high wage, and is willing to take someone with less skill, and train them on the job, then the company will not have a problem finding someone.

purplezooey 7y ago

Yes, if you have dumbass hiring processes, it's a business deficiency just like any other, wasteful spending, etc.

mianos 7y ago

The 'puzzle' part is the best filter for them. Any professional programmer who has spent many years writing stock exchanges/banks/financial systems has not had any recent practice delving into the intricacies of the most commonly provided abstract data types. They probably have come across concurrency and synchronisation problems for which there is no simple one line answer so those questions don't get asked. I can't recall the last time someone told me 'this std::map or python dict()' is not fast enough, can you delve into it and make a better one. The skill is in the selection considering the big picture. Some recent graduate will have looked at all this recently and easily pass this barrier, get the job and move on in a short amount of time while they can. Is there a IT staff shortage? There probably is a shortage of people who don't spend their spare time on hacker-rank or don't really feel motivated enough to spend a day on a bullshit contrived project. There are plenty of you people who don't mind.

skwb 7y ago

Bingo! And it's not just in tech/IT, but in other related fields as well. The real answer is that the Fed has been a bit overly skittish when it comes to balancing economic growth vs. inflation, despite real inflation remaining at very low rates over the past decade. https://www.vox.com/2019/1/7/18166951/skills-gap-modestino-shoag-ballance https://www.vox.com/2019/1/7/18166951/skills-gap-modestino-s...

ijiiijji1 7y ago

They want an oversupply because they want to drive engineering wages down as close to minimum wage / slavery as possible. Underpaying young foreigners remotely is the typical approach used.