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The documents reveal how every aspect of a detainee's life is monitored and controlled: "The students should have a fixed bed position, fixed queue position, fi

The documents reveal how every aspect of a detainee's life is monitored and controlled: "The students should have a fixed bed position, fixed queue position, fixed classroom seat, and fixed station during skills work, and it is strictly forbidden for this to be changed. "Implement behavioural norms and discipline requirements for getting up, roll call, washing, going to the toilet, organising and housekeeping, eating, studying, sleeping, closing the door and so forth." Is it even possible to not be broken by something like this?

api 7y ago
That kind of harsh routine along with sleep deprivation, repetition, and calorie restriction are bog standard cult mind control techniques, and yes they do work. All appear to be present in these camps.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
abtinf 7y ago
This is exactly how American education is structured. What are we doing to our children?
- kd3 7y ago
  Yes indeed, practically worldwide. As Larken Rose writes in "The most dangerous superstition": "The purported purpose of schools is to teach reading, writing, mathematics, and other academic ﬁelds of thought. But the message that institutions of “education” actually teach, far more effectively than any useful knowledge or skills, is the idea that subservience and blind obedience to “authority” are virtues. The “grades” the student receives, the way he is treated, the signals he is sent — written, verbal, and otherwise — all depend upon one factor: his ability and willingness to unquestioningly subvert his own desires, judgment and decisions to those of “authority.” If he does that, he is deemed “good.” If he does not, he is deemed “bad.” This method of indoctrination was not accidental. Schooling in the United States, and in fact in much of the world, was deliberately modeled after the Prussian system of “education,” which was designed with the express purpose of training people to be obedient tools of the ruling class, easy to manage and quick to unthinkingly obey, especially for military purposes. As it was explained by Johann Fichte, one of the designers of the Prussian system, the goal of this method was to “fashion” the student in such a way that he “simply cannot will otherwise” than what those in “authority” want him to will. At the time, the system was openly admitted to be a means of psychologically enslaving the general populace to the will of the ruling class. And it continues to accomplish exactly that, all over the world, including in the United States."
  - zzzcpan 7y ago
    Not all countries are equal at this. Some push police country level obedience, like with "detentions" modeling jails.
- coldtea 7y ago
  Teach them that they live in a society, and so they have certain responsibilities, limits, and roles, as opposed to being mere individuals that can do whatever they please, others be damned? Sorry, but the Chinese have camps for ethnic (or religious) targeted detention and/or brainwashing. This is nothing like "what we do" in education, American or otherwise, and the similarities (the students having a specific desk, queues to eat, etc) are irrelevant and superficial...
  - blotter_paper 7y ago
    I do think that GP made a gross overstatement, but I don't think the similarities are irrelevant and/or superficial. These are the same tactics being used (to a lesser extent and in a different context) towards a similar behavioral end. Reflecting on that might be worthwhile. Even if you decide that they are worth using to some extent to bring about whatever ends you desire, you should at least know the devil you're dancing with.
  - abtinf 7y ago
    Your reasoning has always been the justification for the horrors of re-education camps.
    - coldtea 7y ago
      Nonsense. It's like saying "arguments in favor of industrial production have always been the justification for the horrors of labour camps". Or "arguments in favor of the rule of law have always been the justification for the horrors of police abuse". There's a superficial similarity, but totally different scopes, methods, and outcomes. In this case, I'm against things like the e.g. Native American re-education camps, because I believe that they have the right to their own culture (plus, they were there first). But I'm in favor of mere education camps, also known as schools. And guess what? Populations that was sent to "re-education camps" also are in favor of such things. They also have schools (or similar processes and teachings for their youth). There's a whole lot of difference between a society teaching its children (which is how we're not animals merely grazing grass but have culture, technology, science, etc), and to be taken from your family for forced re-education to a different culture you don't belong to (and who is even adversarial to your people).
JumpCrisscross 7y ago
> Is it even possible to not be broken by something like this? Which then “justifies” harsh, potentially fatal, punishment.
ratww 7y ago
> The students should have a fixed bed position, fixed queue position, fixed classroom seat, and fixed station during skills work, and it is strictly forbidden for this to be changed My school was like that when I was growing up. I'm not justifying what China is doing, and I didn't like it myself. But I find it weird to find it quoted here like that.
- iscrewyou 7y ago
  But the reality is this: you had the option to leave, they don’t. You survived, they probably won’t.
  - seanmcdirmid 7y ago
    You really don’t have an option to leave without being disciplined. Both systems are using similar tactics to create obedient factory workers; which is exactly the point. The work camp will use just more of that.
    - input_sh 7y ago
      It is an option, chosen by the parents. They weren't forced to attend that school based on their ethnicity.
      - seanmcdirmid 7y ago
        For a kid, their parents are often unaware or unsympathetic to their struggles. And just to be clear, the same tactics are applied to Han Chinese (well, the high schools are more harsh, but the Chinese work camp model was already well developed before they decided to do this en masse in Xinjiang). It is horrible, don’t get me wrong, I’m not going to defend it, but I also hope it instills a bit more awareness in our own shortcomings (as well as that of China in general).
        bogwog 7y ago
        > For a kid, their parents are often unaware or unsympathetic to their struggles So you're just going to generalize on all parents like that? Believe it or not, there are actually some parents out there who are interested in their child's well-being and involved in their life. > I’m not going to defend it It seems to me like you're grasping at straws to do precisely that.
__m 7y ago
So like military service except the dancing

api 7y ago

That kind of harsh routine along with sleep deprivation, repetition, and calorie restriction are bog standard cult mind control techniques, and yes they do work. All appear to be present in these camps.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

abtinf 7y ago

This is exactly how American education is structured. What are we doing to our children?

kd3 7y ago
Yes indeed, practically worldwide. As Larken Rose writes in "The most dangerous superstition": "The purported purpose of schools is to teach reading, writing, mathematics, and other academic ﬁelds of thought. But the message that institutions of “education” actually teach, far more effectively than any useful knowledge or skills, is the idea that subservience and blind obedience to “authority” are virtues. The “grades” the student receives, the way he is treated, the signals he is sent — written, verbal, and otherwise — all depend upon one factor: his ability and willingness to unquestioningly subvert his own desires, judgment and decisions to those of “authority.” If he does that, he is deemed “good.” If he does not, he is deemed “bad.” This method of indoctrination was not accidental. Schooling in the United States, and in fact in much of the world, was deliberately modeled after the Prussian system of “education,” which was designed with the express purpose of training people to be obedient tools of the ruling class, easy to manage and quick to unthinkingly obey, especially for military purposes. As it was explained by Johann Fichte, one of the designers of the Prussian system, the goal of this method was to “fashion” the student in such a way that he “simply cannot will otherwise” than what those in “authority” want him to will. At the time, the system was openly admitted to be a means of psychologically enslaving the general populace to the will of the ruling class. And it continues to accomplish exactly that, all over the world, including in the United States."
- zzzcpan 7y ago
  Not all countries are equal at this. Some push police country level obedience, like with "detentions" modeling jails.
coldtea 7y ago
Teach them that they live in a society, and so they have certain responsibilities, limits, and roles, as opposed to being mere individuals that can do whatever they please, others be damned? Sorry, but the Chinese have camps for ethnic (or religious) targeted detention and/or brainwashing. This is nothing like "what we do" in education, American or otherwise, and the similarities (the students having a specific desk, queues to eat, etc) are irrelevant and superficial...
- blotter_paper 7y ago
  I do think that GP made a gross overstatement, but I don't think the similarities are irrelevant and/or superficial. These are the same tactics being used (to a lesser extent and in a different context) towards a similar behavioral end. Reflecting on that might be worthwhile. Even if you decide that they are worth using to some extent to bring about whatever ends you desire, you should at least know the devil you're dancing with.
- abtinf 7y ago
  Your reasoning has always been the justification for the horrors of re-education camps.
  - coldtea 7y ago
    Nonsense. It's like saying "arguments in favor of industrial production have always been the justification for the horrors of labour camps". Or "arguments in favor of the rule of law have always been the justification for the horrors of police abuse". There's a superficial similarity, but totally different scopes, methods, and outcomes. In this case, I'm against things like the e.g. Native American re-education camps, because I believe that they have the right to their own culture (plus, they were there first). But I'm in favor of mere education camps, also known as schools. And guess what? Populations that was sent to "re-education camps" also are in favor of such things. They also have schools (or similar processes and teachings for their youth). There's a whole lot of difference between a society teaching its children (which is how we're not animals merely grazing grass but have culture, technology, science, etc), and to be taken from your family for forced re-education to a different culture you don't belong to (and who is even adversarial to your people).

JumpCrisscross 7y ago

> Is it even possible to not be broken by something like this? Which then “justifies” harsh, potentially fatal, punishment.

ratww 7y ago

> The students should have a fixed bed position, fixed queue position, fixed classroom seat, and fixed station during skills work, and it is strictly forbidden for this to be changed My school was like that when I was growing up. I'm not justifying what China is doing, and I didn't like it myself. But I find it weird to find it quoted here like that.

iscrewyou 7y ago
But the reality is this: you had the option to leave, they don’t. You survived, they probably won’t.
- seanmcdirmid 7y ago
  You really don’t have an option to leave without being disciplined. Both systems are using similar tactics to create obedient factory workers; which is exactly the point. The work camp will use just more of that.
  - input_sh 7y ago
    It is an option, chosen by the parents. They weren't forced to attend that school based on their ethnicity.
    - seanmcdirmid 7y ago
      For a kid, their parents are often unaware or unsympathetic to their struggles. And just to be clear, the same tactics are applied to Han Chinese (well, the high schools are more harsh, but the Chinese work camp model was already well developed before they decided to do this en masse in Xinjiang). It is horrible, don’t get me wrong, I’m not going to defend it, but I also hope it instills a bit more awareness in our own shortcomings (as well as that of China in general).
      - bogwog 7y ago
        > For a kid, their parents are often unaware or unsympathetic to their struggles So you're just going to generalize on all parents like that? Believe it or not, there are actually some parents out there who are interested in their child's well-being and involved in their life. > I’m not going to defend it It seems to me like you're grasping at straws to do precisely that.

__m 7y ago

So like military service except the dancing