23 ms·

The 40% Keyboard

214 points by oftenwrong 7y ago

xwdv 7y ago
If you’re going to go small you might as well go all the way and get a 30% keyboard like the Gherkin. Very portable and not too bad as long as you’re willing to work with layers.
- gregoryl 7y ago
  Anywhere you know of that sells them (mostly?) assembled?
  - dahx4Eev 7y ago
    Look for custom keyboard pcb sellers, or /r/mechmarket
- gt2 7y ago
  How do you quickly access the other layers to do a semicolon or colon or space with those keyboards? Saw a photo-- it's all letters.
  - Ataraxy 7y ago
    Using software such as QMK you can program these custom boards to do anything. To answer your question all keys are accessible by turning whichever key you like into a modifier when held down so you can access another layer. It's not that bad when you realize through your entire life you do the same thing with SHIFT to capitalize letters for example. All of these small boards are just an extension of that concept.
    - gt2 7y ago
      Sounds fun! Thanks for the reply.
fouric 7y ago
If you want even better ergonomics, add tenting, concavity, and move the modifier keys + return/backspace to the thumb cluster (which should be shaped and angled so you're not moving your thumb laterally to hit it). The Dactyl-Manuform[1] is a good example of these things. [1] https://github.com/tshort/dactyl-keyboard https://github.com/tshort/dactyl-keyboard
TACIXAT 7y ago
Getting a (read: multiple) 60% keyboard really changed my life. It makes a lot more sense for not offsetting the mouse way to the right or the keyboard to the left (as you would with a full size). As well, not having to strain my wrist to hit arrow keys got rid of any pain I had. It's awesome having everything under my hands. I'll definitely follow this 40% project.
- woliveirajr 7y ago
  This. Ater having a "centered" keyboard without all those numerical keys, I began to wonder how keyboards still have the same layout even if not everybody uses those nubers on a daily basis.
  - toastal 7y ago
    Repeat this to all laptop manufacturers. I'd rather have better grill speakers and a centered layout than a number pad and speakers under the keyboard.
- kranner 7y ago
  Same here but with a TKL (80%) keyboard. Using a full-sized keyboard with a mouse had offset my right (mouse) hand enough to give me sharp neck pain after a few hours of use. Switching to a TKL has completely eliminated this neck pain.
- geowwy 7y ago
  I had the opposite experience. My 60% keyboard ruined my hands with RSI. I strongly recommend Xah Lee's advice to anyone suffering from RSI: http://xahlee.info/kbd/ergonomic_keyboards_index.html http://xahlee.info/kbd/ergonomic_keyboards_index.html In my opinion the ideal setup for people people with RSI is a 80% keyboard, a seperate number pad, and a programmable keypad for commonly used shortcuts.
azhenley 7y ago
I recently moved to a 60% keyboard (Drop Alt with Clear switches) and really like it. I find the look of these 40% keyboards very appealing. But I also don’t want to have to relearn to type or customize every keyboard I ever purchase in the future. If those barriers get reduced I think they could be very intriguing. Ortholinear keyboards are especially interesting...
- CarVac 7y ago
  You don't have to customize everything you buy in the future. Even after getting a 40% (Mitosis) I can still type just fine on staggered keyboards. I recommend going to column stagger rather than ortholinear.
- PretzelFisch 7y ago
  I just hooked up my Alt with Clear this morning (previous daskeyboard). I miss the mx brown but I like how close the mouse is to the board and the reduction in reaching for the other keys. Having come from several years of split keyboards my main switching complaint was the switch and key quality was really bad. So this 40% is a positive step I hope catches on.
dangus 7y ago
Call me cynical, but I think a lot of the small style keyboards I see around the office are more of a fashion trend than anything. I remember when the insistence was on number pads, and how dare they be removed from our laptops and desktop keyboards. Fast forward a few years and I was made fun of at a programming job for preferring a full keyboard with a number pads. I guess programmers are too cool to enter in dollar amounts into Excel. Now the trend is for brightly multi-colored keys, which are often unlabeled [1], and basically an otherwise standard rectangular keyboard which has no obvious ergonomic benefit over a full 100+ key keyboard. [1] This makes no sense because the colored keys imply you enjoy looking at your keys and their unlabeled nature implies that you don’t need to look at your keys while you type. i.e. a fashion trend.
- kranner 7y ago
  > [1] This makes no sense because the colored keys imply you enjoy looking at your keys and their unlabeled nature implies that you don’t need to look at your keys while you type. i.e. a fashion trend. But you could still enjoy looking at your keyboard with the coloured keys while not using it to type at that exact moment.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - baroffoos 7y ago
    Exactly. Some of those colored unlabeled keyboards look stunning on the desk. Why should a keyboard be purely a utility and not part of the room design. I own an unlabeled keyboard and I mildly regret it. I have no issues typing with it but I struggle with special keys like trying to find ^ or f5. Typing 2fa codes are a pain. If I was buying a new keyboard I would get a labeled one but with no numpad
    - kranner 7y ago
      You could just buy new keycaps and switch them on your current keyboard.
snek 7y ago
I use a 40% keyboard (the planck ez), and I have to say I really enjoy using it. Typing english is about the same speed at this point, but I'm still lagging a bit behind in programming, mostly because my brain still confuses layers and shift. The thing I love most through is that I no longer curl my left pinky under my hand to hit shift, and my pinky doesn't hurt all the time.
george_ciobanu 7y ago
Check out KeyMouse, super cool concept.
- clarry 7y ago
  I have one. It's too heavy and bulky for a mouse, and too flat & unergonomic for a keyboard. There are lots of pinky keys I find very difficult or impossible to reach when the hand is resting in the natural position on the device. And you don't want to move the hand too much around or you end up moving the mouse... Honestly the tiny little mouse buttons suck too.
melling 7y ago
The chorded keyboard looks interesting too: http://tbf-rnd.life/blog/2019/06/16/0-learning-curve-chorded-typing/ http://tbf-rnd.life/blog/2019/06/16/0-learning-curve-chorded...
kettro 7y ago
I’ve been using an 1800 keyboard for the past few years (Leopold 980C), and think the size is perfect. I have access to all of the keys I need, all in a compact package. Add to that a programmable controller from Hasu, and it’s the perfect board for me. I never need to actually use the arrow keys, as I put them under a layer under hjkl. I also use a trackball (Kensington Slimblade), so I don’t need to have too much space to the right side of the keyboard.
mewse 7y ago
I'm mostly typing on Corne keyboards now; a split kit keyboard with 42 keys, so still considered 40%, but fewer keys than most other 40% boards. (so you have to learn to cope with not having dedicated arrow keys, for example) I can't imagine ever going back to a non-split keyboard; for me, it's a much better typing position to have my hands shoulder-width apart rather than squeezed together. I think that's more important than the "every key is within reach of the home row" argument for the 40% size in particular (although I've kind of fallen in love with the 40% size, but I could cope with going to a larger keyboard again better than I'd cope with going to a non-split, I think) But more than that, as a programmer, there's something meditative about maintaining the custom hardware I use to do my job. Double-checking the soldering, tuning the firmware, taking it apart to polish the components and then putting it back together again, etc. Reminds me of the Zen of Motorcycle Maintenance, in a lot of ways.
- Ataraxy 7y ago
  I'm a huge fan of my Corne (crkbd for those looking it up) also and I agree with everything you've said here. In fact I'm even thinking of building one with the outer columns chopped off if I can get a bit more used to chording. It didn't at all take me long to get used to the 40%, the split boards, or the column stagger after using a 60% for years and I was quickly back up to ~100wpm in about a week. This was my first time with the three. Most of all, I'm never going back to a non split if I have a choice.
- dahx4Eev 7y ago
  The Corne (crkbd) is great. I’m building a curved crkbd, similar to a dactyl manuform.
- equalunique 7y ago
  The Corne's predecessor, the Helix, was a significant leap forward from the Let's Split design that inspired it. It had a lot of firsts. First split design with reversible PCB, first split with per-key RGB, first split with OLEDs supported on both sides - necessitating some custom OLED code in QMK that was ahead of it's time. The Helix and it's derivatives (like Corne) represent the apex of 2018's DIY radically designed small boards movement, and the Japanese DIY keyboard movement too.
irjustin 7y ago
I use the Diverge 3 + Khaili box whites as my daily driver. It has more layers than I personally could ever effectively utilize. Absolutely love this setup. I picked it up over the Ergodox. After having used my co-worker's erogdox repeatedly, I did not like how far the thumb cluster was and this simply brought it closer which is what the author is explaining with the minimal amount of movement. I don't like 40% keyboards because I am still traditionalist in that numbers are still a first class key. Basically, what am I willing to give up and allow to be put into a cord/layer? If I could, I would bring the arrow keys back out, but the design's cost goes up a lot when that happens.
- bootlooped 7y ago
  I've found the small keys on the thumb clusters on the Ergodox to be a good location for select function keys. I don't have to hit them often, but much of the time I do, it must be in combination with some modifier keys for certain IDE shortcuts. I have seen layouts online where people assign nothing to them. As for the big keys on the thumb clusters, I don't find them to be an issue. I do think it would be better if they were moved in just a hair though.
shirro 7y ago
I tried a 60% about 10 years ago with a happy hacker but it wasn't a great keyboard to use and wasn't easily customisable or with many options. I just jumped back in this week with an Anne 2 Pro. I was moving from laptop back to desktop use and was looking to replace my full size with a mech TKL since I never use numpads ever but I wondered if corded replacements for some of those keys wouldn't be practical with a smarter bit of hardware so I gave it a go. I have ~` replacing escape since I need them for shell and programming. I don't understand how any keyboard could drop that key. I set caps as a function key to access arrows (on hjkl as well as wasd) as well as the function keys and a few other features and it operates as Esc on tap which would be useful if I didn't have jj escape from insert mode. Overall very happy so far. There are a few window manager and term combinations I used to need to reach over to the arrows and which I never bothered to remap that I can do one handed. It makes me want to become a proficient typist. The only problem is it has better led light shows than the old full size gaming keyboard and the kids want to type on it all day.
wy35 7y ago
I've built a Planck (40% ortho) and I can say for sure that I personally don't find the short finger travel between keys to be worth having to hit two keys to type a number, for example. Instead of moving one finger an extra row to type a number, I now have to move two fingers.
- jacobolus 7y ago
  The problem here is not the lack of an additional row of number keys, but the poor other choices in physical keyboard layout (based on largely following the historical pattern of a 19th century typewriter design; in the “planck” example with an arbitrary ergonomically-useless horizontal shifting of the rows). It also doesn’t work very well to put the numbers on a shifted layer but all on the same row, requiring 8 fingers across both hands to type them. If you re-arrange the keyboard into a shape according with human hand/arm ergonomics (of particular relevance for chording, moving or extending thumb keys toward the body; the standard spacebar and modifiers are not especially comfortable), and use a thumb key located in a convenient spot for the layer shift, with the numbers typed using the fingers of the opposite hand, then chorded numbers are just fine: more comfortable and efficient than the standard approach of putting numbers on a separate row. For cases when many numbers must be typed in sequence, making that layer shift key into an optional mode switch (to effectively turn half the keyboard into a numpad) works pretty well.
  - clarry 7y ago
    If you re-arrange the keyboard into a shape according to human hand ergonomics, you can easily fit a number row that is easy to reach without making typos. See kinesis advantage. It's hard to imagine how requiring me to press two different keys for the same effect would increase speed and reduce typos. I suspect the effect is completely opposite. (Shift is painful enough and I hate typing camelcase code) Number keys are also indispensable for games where you need to switch items while moving. A finger or two are already going to be busy with the motion keys, adding two more fingers that don't overlap with the motions is going for some octopus keyhandling.
    - 7y ago
pugworthy 7y ago
Another person here who went to a 60% and I really enjoy it. I have built two with custom switch setups, one for gaming and one for general typing. There's a lot of satisfying craftsmanship to buying a circuit board here, a case there, switches matching your style of typing, and lastly keycaps that have a nice aesthetic and color balance.
briantakita 7y ago
One can make a programmable matrix layout keyboard with Two Koolertron keyboards. While it may be a bit bigger than the 40% keyboard, it's small, programmable, & has 96 keys or 94 keys in 3 toggleable layouts. Gamers tend to use it has an extended numpad but I use it as my general keyboard with bespoke tilting upwards toward the middle. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B076LRJ528?ref=ppx_pop_mob_ap_share https://www.amazon.com/dp/B076LRJ528?ref=ppx_pop_mob_ap_shar...
- lioeters 7y ago
  I've never seen those, nice! I like the cute and minimalistic design with no labels. It's advertised as a "Single-Handed Programmable Mechanical Keyboard", a unit having 48 keys (in 4 groups of 4x3) - I see, so one for each hand. It being programmable sounds great, one could position characters and modifiers any which way to please. Just curious, I suppose you've placed labels with your own mapping - or do you use the keys blank like that?
  - slightwinder 7y ago
    They also have a "Koolertron Programmable Split Mechanical Keyboard" which is basically two units working as a complete keyboard.
rjplatte 7y ago
Absolutely love my Planck. I was going to build more keebs, but it's perfect for my needs, and my wrists feel infinitely better. Another excellent solution is the XD75, which is ortholinear, but puts a number pad between QWERT and YUIOP. The spacing is absolutely great.
rococode 7y ago
I'm a big fan of 75% keyboards. The layout retains nearly everything from a full-size keyboard except the number pad (i.e. there are F-keys, numbers, arrows, Escape, Home/PgUp/PgDown, etc.), but compresses it all into a single rectangular block. For me, it's the perfect balance of compactness and usability. Fits snugly in my backpack but allows me to use my preferred set of keybinds since all the relevant keys are there. Here's a site with a rundown of most of the popular sizes: https://www.keyboardco.com/blog/index.php/2017/08/full-size-tkl-60-and-more-a-guide-to-mechanical-keyboard-sizes/ https://www.keyboardco.com/blog/index.php/2017/08/full-size-...
- equalunique 7y ago
  Mostly I prefer 40%, but when something conventional is required (Blender, TES Daggerfall, as examples) I too like 75%.
- 52-6F-62 7y ago
  Hahaha—that binary keyboard. For me, I'm a happy full-size user—at home and at work. Work: The discontinued Apple Magic wired (like: https://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2018/1/9/16872204/matias-apple-mac-keyboard-wired-backlight-rgb-ces-2018 https://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2018/1/9/16872204/ma...) Home: Logitech K840 https://www.logitech.com/en-us/product/k840-mechanical-corded-keyboard https://www.logitech.com/en-us/product/k840-mechanical-corde... I find both fantastic. Having learned to use the numpad by navigating speedily through old hierarchical menus on a DOS-based POS system, I don't think I can let them go.
equalunique 7y ago
I use many different computers every day, and for the past 3 years, I have preferred 40% keyboards to get the job done. Basically, the smaller the keyboard, the easier the layout is to remember. When it fits completely under your hands, with no extra columns or rows necessitating hand movement away from the home row, you can then commit the layout to your body's muscle memory faster. It then becomes more efficient and comfortable to use. EDIT: On my current layout, I do something pretty unconventional, which is saying a lot considering I'm using Dvorak. So I've mapped the B key on my Mods layer to Backspace, D to Delete, T to Tab, and E for Enter (just to name a handful). Now, I prefer this to having mods requiring a long pinky reach to either side. It's also liberating using a layer for an extra level of intention before hitting stuff like Delete, Backspace, and Enter. If you're reading this, there's a good chance you've accidentally hit Enter one on a message or button when you didn't mean to. Especially if you've dabbled with HHKB layout. With this type of arrangement, worrying about that is a thing of the past.
nabeelms 7y ago
Personally, I prefer the Kinesis Advantage 2 for most of my typing work. It's more pricy than many other keyboards but I've always found dev work pretty easy with it.
- walkingolof 7y ago
  Second that, its also wider than these tiny small keyboards, which is a plus comfort-wise.
xouse 7y ago
I know a lot of people who think they can touch type the number row, but I've yet to meet anyone who can actually do it at anything resembling their normal typing speed and without errors. If people could there would be no reason for the numberpad to exist. I'm a very fast typist and I've always struggled with touch typing the number row. Thirty minutes into using a split 40% keyboard and I was using the number row at full speed, something that has eluded me my whole life. And of course, it's a hell of a lot easier to hold down a key with my thumb and touch type the qwerty row than to make the normal awkward stretch that fullsize keyboards use. That told me pretty much everything I needed to know. Once I learn a layout I can type any key that's on the home row or the rows that are directly above or below it and a thumb modifier faster than I can type any keys outside of the three home rows sans a modifier. The idea that many people have that somehow 40% keyboards are about having less keys at your immediate disposal is completely backwards. There are 36 keys that are within a 1 key displacement of the home row. With the natural 36 and two thumb modifiers on each side that's already 180 keys that are all touch typeable, and that's without even getting into any of the fancy stuff like being able to tap for one function and hold for another, or using two modifiers at once, or using a vim style leader key, or chording, or having modes that you can switch into. The smaller keyboards aren't about having less keys, it's not like I woke up one morning and decided to never use function keys or curly brackets again, it's about removing all the cruft that that can't be pressed easily and mapping it in a way that it can.
- rimliu 7y ago
  The most popular layout for my language (Lithuanian) has our "additional" letters ĄČĘĖĮŠŲŪŽ on the number row. So if you are touch-typing in Lithuanian you do touch-type the number row, just not for numbers.
- roel_v 7y ago
  The problem is that you need to be able to touch type, but also know how to not touch type, i.e. actually knowing what character is where, when entering passwords, regular expressions etc. I can touch type, but I have no idea where all the individual numbers are; I have to type 'in the air' to make my muscle memory explicit. When entering something character by character, you can't really 'touch type' them; touch typing is about operating at an abstraction level above 'character by character'.
pdpi 7y ago
It really annoys me when people try to claim scientific evidence (Fitts’s law in this case) for their unscientific choices. There is no frequency-of-use analysis, nothing about the cognitive cost of remembering a very very unique set of key bindings (the guy on my team with a 40% keyboard still struggles with some common keystrokes after several months), just “fitts’s law and we move less”.
- BigJ1211 7y ago
  It's hard to measure I suppose, I personally started using a Redox Wireless (and now own several split, non-split mechanical keyboards of all variaties). I went from being unable to comfortably type a 1/4 of a page to being able to type an entire page at a time. (I'm a developer, so this is really important to me. I was starting to have RSI/CTS complaints at the start of the year) Here's a study I could find with a quick search: http://ergo.human.cornell.edu/conferences/hfes02/gttalkhfes02.pdf http://ergo.human.cornell.edu/conferences/hfes02/gttalkhfes0... Essentially comfort isn't significantly higher than with a standard keyboard, but there's less discomfort.
  - pdpi 7y ago
    I'm not in any way, shape or form suggesting that you _don't_ benefit from whatever keyboard you're using. I'm just saying that, if it's anecdotal ("works well for me"), say so — don't hide it behind a veneer of faux science.
- ghostbrainalpha 7y ago
  I was your co-worker. Built a custom board entirely for aesthetic reasons, and didn't really know how to do anything that required a function key without trial and error for about a year. Then a co-worker made fun of me. I memorized what all the modifiers did and became fully proficient in about 48 hours.
Nursie 7y ago
Not for me, thanks. I have a ... I don't know, it's like a 60% but with added arrows and ins/del/home/end/pgup/pgdn off to the right like on a 80%, but it's not a 80% or a standard 75% because there's no F key row. I wouldn't want to go any smaller, I already have an extra 'super' key to access F functions, and I already have minor issues just with the physical size. Maybe I have big hands? Either way, I like the desk space back, but I think there are limits here.
highcapacity1 7y ago
Interesting concept but I use a keyboard for it to be efficient, not trendy
skocznymroczny 7y ago
While I like the look of some of these 40%/60% keyboards, the tall keys are a big no-no for me. My wrists hurt just by looking at it.
- wishinghand 7y ago
  Some have really flat keys, like this: https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/736191/49698493-06462b80-fc08-11e8-95fd-8d18763b38ff.jpg https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/736191/49698493-06...
halotrope 7y ago
Most people would benefit much more from practicing proper (touch-) typing than upgrading/innovating devices.
- joosters 7y ago
  Would programmers actually benefit? Realistically, how often are you limited by your typing speed when coding? I can type fast but there’s no way I could ever keep writing code at my typing speed, I’m always pausing to think about what I’m writing. If you type slower, you are still thinking about the code as you type. Is typing really the limiting factor, or is it actually the thinking?
  - kgwgk 7y ago
    I think the discussion is about ergonomics, not speed.
    - joosters 7y ago
      Much of the discussion is about having fewer keys, resulting in more multiple key presses to type certain symbols. That’s not improving ergonomics.
      - kgwgk 7y ago
        It seems some people find that not having to move the arms makes up for hand contortions. But you’re right, the article conclusion is that “First of all, the reduced distances will increase speed, (...) If it turns out that 40% keyboards can reduce Repetitive Strain Injury or R.S.I. (...)” Anyway, I think touch typing helps in all fronts. The alternative is not just slower typing, it also adds a mental load that can only distract from the thinking.
  - KaiserPro 7y ago
    Touch typing is not about speed to start with, its about the correct placement of the hands. Yes not looking at the keyboard is a useful side effect, but from ergonomics point of view, not over stretching to reach a key really is important. I was forced to learn touch typing when I was about 11. I hated every moment of it. It was an interactive program, and I had to have a box over my keyboard so that I was forced to use muscle memory to get the right key. But, it meant that I have my hand in the right place, the correct angle, and use the correct force. As a side effect, I'm not thinking about where letters are, and having to look at my keyboard(as much). This means that typing is almost like speaking, in terms of cognitive load. (hand writing is much slower and arduous for me)
KaiserPro 7y ago
I really can't see how having to hold down two keys at the same time is going to help RSI. (because to get to the special keys you have to hold down a modifier key) When you have your fingers contorted and under stress trying to hold two keys down, thats when RSI really kicks in. I would go out on a limb and say that these keyboard are going to make one's RSI even worse.
- ChymeraXYZ 7y ago
  If you program the keyboard slightly smart then the modifier key is always on the other hand than the "primary" key. I'm not going to claim what it does for/against RSI, but I have been using a split 40% for the last 3 years and I never looked back, in terms of comfort.
- jdietrich 7y ago
  The modifiers are placed under the thumbs, so no contortion is necessary. Try it yourself - with the possible exception of the B and Y keys, you can reach all the alpha keys perfectly comfortably with your thumb simultaneously pressing the space bar.
- the_gipsy 7y ago
  You're only holding down a few more modifiers on a 40, and with the thumbs which are underused on a full. Also finger/hand positions are definitely much more contorted, or spread, on a full keyboard.
b0rsuk 7y ago
Where is a hexagonal keyboard when you need it? Hexes are sweet for strategy and puzzle games, but could also be sweet for roguelikes if input devices were better. A smaller keyboard barely solves any problem, especially if you have palms as large as mine. But a hex keyboard would. Not even Kickstarter has something for hexagonal input device.
- intrepidhero 7y ago
  I just happened across http://xahlee.info/kbd/benzene666_keyboard.html http://xahlee.info/kbd/benzene666_keyboard.html will reading through some of the links in this thread. Unfortunately his review is spartan, and not positive.
  - b0rsuk 7y ago
    Hexagonal arrow keys would have been enough.
halvdan 7y ago
I own a HHKB[1] and while very pleasant to type with the fact that the function keys are on another layer can be cumbersome in some IDEs. In IntelliJ IDEs you have Ctrl + F9 to build (or something like that) which means pressing Ctrl + Fn + 9. Maybe the experience can be improved with better placement of the Fn-key (which on the HHKB is in the lower right corner). Reading the comments about experiences with split and/or ergonomic keyboards makes me want to try some other variants. [1] https://www.hhkeyboard.com/ https://www.hhkeyboard.com/
- petepete 7y ago
  As a Vimmer, the HHKB is very close to perfection. I can reach every key without having to move my hands too far, the Fn key fall right under my right little finger and Control being in the correct place is a huge win. The fact that it has Topre switches is the icing on the cake, I wouldn't use any other keyboard on a prolonged basis.
  - wyclif 7y ago
    What is it about the Topre switches that you prefer?
    - petepete 7y ago
      I like the smooth action and 'thunk'. It's a pleasure to type on after many years' use.
Yizahi 7y ago
People like to talk a lot about KB ergonomics, reducing carpal syndrome and there is a reason for it, but I don't understand why almost nobody does the one thing that contributes the most for improvement - inverted KB stand. This thing on the bottom - https://imgur.com/a/yne4lPR https://imgur.com/a/yne4lPR . People fiddle with layouts, key travel, key shape, switches etc. but that doesn't really matter if your wrists are crooked. If your wrists aren't straight you will injure them over time, that's a fact. And I see almost none KBs which allow changing KB level in a good way (in a bad way almost all of them - with stupid stands in back of KB).
- cerebellum42 7y ago
  Split ergo keyboards like the Ergodox allow for that kind of positioning and more.
- eeZah7Ux 7y ago
  Indeed. A lot of the ergonomics people talk about is not backed by any scientific research. Switch to dvorak to minimize finger travel and use a flat keyboard on an inverted stand.
- Symbiote 7y ago
  I cringe slightly when I see people designing mechanical keyboards like this [1]. That's a great "standard" layout! It's split, it still has space around the arrow and navigation keys to aid finding them by touch, and the numpad is on the left. But there's a 1.5cm (or so) tilt on the thing! Removing that is always the first thing any ergonomics guide instructs, but here it's a fixed part of the case. Many DIY split ergonomic keyboards either have many tenting/tilting options, or are flat allowing you to make your own [2]. [1] https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=103144.0 https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=103144.0 [2] http://xahlee.info/kbd/diy_keyboards_index.html http://xahlee.info/kbd/diy_keyboards_index.html
- oftenwrong 7y ago
  I have a "negative tilt" keyboard tray on my desk. Similar to this: http://www.workwhilewalking.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/keyboard-tilt-dynamic.jpg http://www.workwhilewalking.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/k... I do find it is more comfortable for my wrists.
ianai 7y ago
Is anybody trying to combine the mouse input with the keys themselves? Ie embedding a nib? I’m thinking like a light touch on a home row key being interpreted as a mouse click. Have the nib input only register if the key is either depressed or not, depending on implementation.
- g4d 7y ago
  Or you could just get a thinkpad, right?
- whywhywhywhy 7y ago
  TEX Yoda[0] mechanical and Thinkpad Compact USB Keyboard[1] scissor switch might interest you. [0] https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=3924 https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_det... [1] https://www.lenovo.com/gb/en/accessories-and-monitors/keyboards-and-mice/keyboards/KEYBOARD-UK-English/p/0B47221 https://www.lenovo.com/gb/en/accessories-and-monitors/keyboa...
- CarVac 7y ago
  If you have enough thumb keys then on a custom board you can put mouse keys on a layer with QMK.
songzme 7y ago
2 years ago I bought this vertex core 40% keyboard: https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=3550 https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_det... Unfortunately, I type in dvorak layout and the keyboard I purchased did not work out. I have to press 3 keys to type the letter 'z' because of the strange meta layers. I switched to dvorak because I had minor wrist pains and I hoped that switching to dvorak would help. The pain went away (maybe a coincidence), but dvorak was a pleasure to type so I stuck with it. Everytime there is a new keyboard, I try it out and become disappointed because it is heavily optimized for qwerty layouts.
- ChymeraXYZ 7y ago
  One of the main draws for me to build a somewhat custom keyboard is that you can program it yourself. That way you can modify the layout so it suits dvorak layouts.
  - css 7y ago
    There is a drop-in PCB for the Vortex Core called the Atom47[0] that supports QMK[1]: [0] https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware/tree/master/keyboards/maartenwut/atom47 https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware/tree/master/keyboards/ma... [1] https://qmk.fm/ https://qmk.fm/
- CarVac 7y ago
  The answer is custom layouts. Here's my layout for the Mitosis split ergo keyboard designed for dvorak if you want inspiration. https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware/blob/master/keyboards/mitosis/keymaps/carvac_dv/keymap.c https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware/blob/master/keyboards/mi... I have mouse keys, a number layer that's on the home row, actual arrow keys, and no contortions needed for any of the alpha keys, all on a tiny 46-key layout.
WalterBright 7y ago
I still much much prefer a full size keyboard. I could only find one on Amazon that would connect with bluetooth. I throw it in my luggage when traveling so at least in my hotel room I can use a full size keyboard. I hate those wretched trackpads on laptops, and also throw a full size bluetooth mouse in my luggage.
- blacksmythe 7y ago
  I don't travel with an extra keyboard, but I do take a mouse. An external mouse is so much better, and hardly takes up any space.
adambyrtek 7y ago
This is a good description of the default 40% layout and function layers on MiniVan keyboards: https://drop.com/talk/115/where-did-all-my-keys-go-a-look-into-the-function-layers-of-the-mini-van https://drop.com/talk/115/where-did-all-my-keys-go-a-look-in... Of course you can reconfigure everything to suit your needs and flash directly to your board using open source QMK firmware: https://docs.qmk.fm https://docs.qmk.fm Custom keyboards are a great hobby for people who want to control and hack their own hardware.
kentosi 7y ago
As someone who uses IntelliJ all day long I couldn't use a 40% keyboard at work due to all the layering combinations needed for F1 -> F12. However I did try for a while, and the best I've gotten to is remapping my Caps Lock key to a meta key that converts hjkl to my arrow keys. It's a small step, but I haven't looked back since. Typing is SO much faster when you never have to leave the home row.
vijucat 7y ago
I have a Diverge 3 and I love the split aspect of it (easier on the wrists / nerves), and love the programmability (I have the keys that I use most near the home row), and I appreciate the wrist rest, but I miss the function keys' row. It has 71 keys. I think 40% keyboards work well for gamers, but are impractical for developers, who need to access all the symbol keys ( (, {, [, etc;), and often need access to the function keys, too. Layering, having to press Fn and another key to achieve what could be a single keypress on a 101-key keyboard, just adds work. The input mechanism must be seamless so that one may focus on the actual work. The keyboard should just disappear. The much-touted keyboard.io has the same limitation.
- mdpye 7y ago
  I can't reach `]` without moving my hands from the home row. Nor can I reliably find it using my weakest finger without looking down. Then after I've used it, I must re-home my hands before continuing. Don't even get me started on = and +... But on my Planck, I press both of my thumbs down in their resting positions and the home row suddenly becomes [{( )}] (with the round parens under my index fingers). Can't get much more seamless than.
  - vijucat 7y ago
    On keyboards where you can re-map keys, you can place symbol keys nearby? > I press both of my thumbs down in their resting positions and the home row suddenly becomes Three keys to type in one symbol sounds bad to me, but it sounds like it works just fine for you!
- callum-oakley 7y ago
  As a full time 40% keyboard user, I take issue with the sentiment that the form factor is impractical for development. Holding a layer modifier to access symbols on the home row is less work than moving to the far reaches of a 101 key board, and often having to hit shift as well anyway! I wrote an article on the subject recently if you're up for having your assumptions challenged: https://callumoakley.net/posts/48-keys-are-plenty https://callumoakley.net/posts/48-keys-are-plenty
GrayShade 7y ago
I don't have RSI, but it seems to me that rotating your wrists to press Ctrl with your pinky is one of the larger parts of the problem. I prefer to press Ctrl with the side of my palm, but that doesn't work on some Lenovo and Apple laptops which Fn is at the edge of the keyboard.
- knome 7y ago
  You may want to check the BIOS for your laptop. It often has the ability to swap the `ctrl` and `fn` keys, which is nice for those of us that find their choice to put them on backwards from how they ought to have annoying.
  - GrayShade 7y ago
    That's a fair point, but I avoid on principle laptops with stupid keyboard layouts (which seem to be more and more common these days). On the other hand, my current laptop (which I haven't bought) has no End key, but rather Home, PgUp, PgDn, Power.
- dsego 7y ago
  Yeah, one good thing about apple computers is that the Cmd button is under your thumb, much easier than Ctrl.
- boring_twenties 7y ago
  How is this still a thing in 2019. Just remap Caps Lock to Ctrl, problem solved. If using Linux, simply add `ctrl:nocaps` to the XKBOPTIONS= line in /etc/default/keyboard, e.g.: XKBOPTIONS='other:options,ctrl:nocaps'
  - GrayShade 7y ago
    I did that, but never used it. I still find pressing Ctrl to be more comfortable because it requires less movement.
    - 7y ago
xondono 7y ago
I find this kinds of keyboards very interesting, but doing CAD work seems like a pain. The biggest problem I find with all of this is that most of my software has locked down (or crappy systems for changing) shortcuts, so it would be painfully hard to set up one of this. Interesting stuff anyway.
- Symbiote 7y ago
  For CAD work, something like a large macropad might be helpful -- giving additional keys, rather than taking some away. On a keyboard like the one linked below, every key can be programmed arbitrarily, i.e. you can set a single key to do "Control X" or whatever. I don't know if this can do it, but things like having a single key do "Control X, 5, move mouse left 5 pixels, Control K" are possible on some of these mechanical keyboards, given some programming ability. ("Gaming" macropads are also an option, the flashy LEDs can usually be disabled.) http://xahlee.info/kbd/ly092_mini_keyboard.html http://xahlee.info/kbd/ly092_mini_keyboard.html
dsego 7y ago
Not sold on the RSI benefits. See, I bought a Planck, thinking that the ortholinear layout would make sense. But it didn't work really. Maybe I'm just accustomed to the staggered layout, but it just felt too cramped. Besides, I don't think that less movement automatically leads to less strain. In fact it felt like my fingers didn't get to stretch enough, and my wrists were too close for comfort. All in all, the mouse still seems to be the biggest issue for me, especially the micro movements, so I adjust the mouse to have more travel. But in the end the most comfortable experience is a laptop with a decent touchpad, no need to reach for the mouse and the wrists don't move much or at all.
- ghthor 7y ago
  Careful with the trackpads. My experience with them is my hand is very tense using them and all that tension traveled up my arm into my shoulder and gave me horrible pain. I've since alleviated it by regular intervals switching between trackball and traditional mice.
- pietrovismara 7y ago
  Interesting as I always hated touchpads even after having tried several models of different quality. I'm very happy with my vertical mouse on the other hand. It only performs slightly worse than a normal mouse on very small precision movements but it's much more comfortable and still retains the speed of a mouse vs touchpad.
  - dsego 7y ago
    Have you ever tried using a macbook? That was the conversion point for me.
- aeyes 7y ago
  Your observation of micro movements of the mouse causing issues is hitting the nail on the head. This movement comes from the wrist and should be avoided. All pro gamers use a somewhat low sensitivity which forces the movement to come from the forearm instead of the wrist. Higher accuracy isn't the only reason, you'll get chronic wrist pain within a couple of months if the mouse movement comes from your wrist. I'd recommend at least 20cm/360, better 25+. No accel.
rwbaskette 7y ago
I use the olkb plank (https://olkb.com/planck?category=eotw https://olkb.com/planck?category=eotw) both at home and at the office. It started as fun to build, solder, and program but I soon realized that I was less fatigued after typing all day. My wrists don't break outward and I maintain my proper starting position longer as result of having less distance to travel between keystrokes. Take it for what it's worth, but at the very least they are a fun hobby project.
celeritascelery 7y ago
> It’s sort of obvious to figure out that the less we have to move our hand from the home row to the arrow keys, the more time we save. There is however a more formalized way to look at this in the field of user interface design. I feel like this thinking is flawed. When you are pressing a sequence of keys, your fingers don’t wait for the first key to be pressed before the next finger starts moving to its key. This means that it is in position right after the first key is hit. One of the reasons that more optimized layouts (Dvorak, etc) don’t seem to produce any speed up, Even though from a Fitt’s law perspective they should. Having a tiny keyboard will not make you faster and may slow you down because of all the layers you now need to use.
devit 7y ago
Physically removing the number pad and the arrow keys can be useful because it allows the mouse to be placed closer to the center, but removing the number row and function keys doesn't seem to provide any significant benefit for desktop usage.
vollmond 7y ago
I love my Keebio Iris; I've built three at this point, for my two work machines and my home office. 60%, split, columnar, programmable with QMK. Since they're completely split, with only a cable between them, I can place them in whatever angle is perfectly comfortable for me, and I have room for my track ball between them for super easy access [0] The main power in these custom boards is in the firmware, allowing you limitless customization. If you're the sort of person to place Escape or Control on your CapsLock button via OS tools, this takes that to another level. I never have to take my hands out of home position. Some of my layout details [1]: * When spacebar is held down, it activates a navigation layer instead of typing space. In this layer, I have HJKL arrow keys, along with page up/down, home/end, my numrow becomes function keys, and Tab/CapsLock cycle through browser tabs. * The CapsLock button is Escape when tapped, Control when held down. * The damn. key [0] is Control-Alt-Delete when tapped once, Control-Shift-Escape when tapped twice. * The fn key, when held, turns the right half of the board into a traditional numpad descending from the 789 keys in the numrow. * The raise key, when held, gives access to any special characters not already in the main layout (-_{}[]+=|\) I also have a separate BDN9 macropad [0] with rotary encoders for volume/zoom, and keys mapped to the debugging navigation keys for software debugging. Also has a screenshot macro (print screen, win+R, type "mspaint", enter, wait 750ms, control+P). It has a key that will open notepad on a single-tap (win+R, type "notepad", enter) or type out a long email header I use frequently when double-tapped. There is certainly an aesthetic component (I love the look and feel of my boards and my keycaps), and the build was a big draw (soldering everything together, programming the layout), but the benefit of having a totally custom setup for my specific needs is fantastic. [0] My primary work setup: https://imgur.com/a/uvuDeE3 https://imgur.com/a/uvuDeE3 [1] My QMK layout file: https://github.com/imnotpete/qmk_firmware/blob/master/keyboards/iris/keymaps/sam/keymap.c https://github.com/imnotpete/qmk_firmware/blob/master/keyboa...
gbrown 7y ago
I never have any problems with wrist fatigue, and I've sometimes wondered if it's because I type "wrong". Holding your fingers at home row and stretching always felt weird to me, and I learned to type naturally. I primarily use three digits on each hand plus thumbs (no pinkies), and I move my hands back and forth as needed - no stretching or reaching. I can type ~60 WPM if I'm really trying, but I never really have occasion to type that fast
- vollmond 7y ago
  This sounds a bit like my wife's typing. Super weird to watch, but she can go fast and never complains of pain despite doing 100% of her typing on a laptop. My computer-related pain started maybe 3 years into my career, and mostly manifested in my fingers and hand, less in my wrist. I switched at that point to a Logitech Wingman trackball and a Microsoft Natural 4000 split, negative-tilt keyboard, and the pain went away almost instantly and hasn't come back in the 12 years or so since.
  - gbrown 7y ago
    Interesting. I've never had trouble with the bog-standard MS keyboards that happen to come with most office workstations. I do like the feel of hybrid mechanical-rubber keys though, the click is nice. My wife says my typing looks really weird too, but it works for me. Hours and hours of AIM chat when I was in junior high and high school paid off I guess.
- amflare 7y ago
  Same. By hovering, my wrists are never at a bad angle. In fact, looking at my hands right now, I can see them naturally sitting at roughly the same angles as those fancy ergonomic keyboards, despite the keyboard being a cheap flat one.
rcpt 7y ago
I never really committed to hjkl until getting a pok3r. I love 60% keyboards now though I still get a bit mixed up every now and then when I accidentally hit the combo for "insert" or find myself in the wrong mode.
stockkid 7y ago
40% keyboards are cool. I was initially skeptical when I moved to a 40% keyboard from a full sized split keyboard. After couple of months, I observed no drop in productivity or had strains.
dlevine 7y ago
I have an ortholinear 40% that sits in my closet collecting dust. I used it for a little while, but just didn't like it that much. Despite the claims of it being more ergonomic, I found that I was contorting my pinky into some strange positions to hit some of the keys, and was getting some strain. Plus, with 40 keys, you probably need 2 additional layers to get in all of the functionality. I also have an ErgoDox (68-key split ortholinear). I used it for a while but I just never liked ortholinear. I have used a 60% keyboard for most of the past 4 years that seems to me about as functional as a full-sized keyboard. Basically all that I lose are the arrow and function keys (and ESC), all of which can be easily emulated with a second layer (I don't even think about it any more). I mapped caps lock to ESC. I know that some people need a numpad, but I don't, and I like the form factor of a 60% (plus I built it up with switches and keycaps from an old Apple Extended Keyboard, which were much better than the modern Apple stuff).
- bitxbit 7y ago
  This is why 65% keyboards are becoming popular. You get the compactness of a 60% with the functionality of a TKL. HHKB format is also nice if you can get used to it.
  - wyclif 7y ago
    Any examples of a 65% keyboard? I've never heard this terminology thrown around till now.
    - dlevine 7y ago
      Yeah. The Whitefox or Drop's Alt Keyboard or the Tada68 or the Magicforce 68. You can find most of them on Amazon.
lemper 7y ago
currently, i use split and concave mechanical keyboards with 38 keys[1] and 42 keys[2] and i have no problem so far. i also put mods on the homerows for left and right hand. whenever i want to type numbers, i only have to move down my thumb and then move down one of my three fingers. for symbols, i write haskell and racket, i don't have any problem either. as for f-keys and common shortcuts, i also don't have any problem. while writing prose, i literally don't have to move my wrists at all[3]. and here's my current layout [4]. [1] https://assets.bigcartel.com/product_images/248892149/IMG20191117024445.jpg?auto=format&fit=max&h=1000&w=1000 https://assets.bigcartel.com/product_images/248892149/IMG201... [2] https://github.com/ibnuda/dactyl-keyboard/tree/coffin https://github.com/ibnuda/dactyl-keyboard/tree/coffin or tree/master [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIBFrzXZbec https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIBFrzXZbec [4] https://github.com/ibnuda/qmk_firmware/tree/rarded/keyboards/handwired/dactyl_manuform/4x5/keymaps/sunat https://github.com/ibnuda/qmk_firmware/tree/rarded/keyboards...
6gvONxR4sf7o 7y ago
What's everybody's preferred "shit I'm developing RSI and need to make ergonomic changes" keyboards? Wrist and thumb is unhappy, if that's happened to any of you.
- secure 7y ago
  Kinesis Advantage :)
- gattilorenz 7y ago
  Same problem (actually worse than yours), have been using the employer-provided Microsoft Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000 for more than a year, and resting a TouchPad (Magic TouchPad 2, I'm a Mac user) on the home/page up keys. It's inexpensive, comfortable and quick and easy to adapt to (not ortholinear, no weird layouts). The downside is the membrane keys... I'd love to have a mechanical shaped like this and with a recess for the TouchPad.
- AWildC182 7y ago
  1) Learned to type correctly by switching to dvorak. Nothing to do with the supposed benefits of the layout, just forces you to relearn from scratch the right way. 2) Mechanical keyboard (doesn't have to be mechanical specifically) with very light actuation force
- wyclif 7y ago
  I've been in the industry for decades as a engineer/programmer/developer, and I've never gotten RSI. I'm a big fan of the old IBM Model M mechanical keyboards with the buckling springs. I know it's not as cool as some of the things available or that people in this thread are making, but it gets the job done. It's also heavy and doesn't slide around, it has a metal bottom chassis and in case of an attack on your office, you could potentially use it as a shield or weapon. Years ago after I got into Linux, I got one of these and it's still going strong. One of the best purchases I've ever made. Best of all, the Ctrl key is where it should be for *NIX people: https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/40PSA https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/40PSA
agumonkey 7y ago
I need that for my car.
tenebrisalietum 7y ago
I want to go the other way. I want a 200% keyboard. I don't want to have to type SHIFT for capital letters or symbols and I want extra keys for diagonal cursor movement. The SHIFT key is an artifact of the physical limitations of a typewriter and is no longer needed.
- ReC757 7y ago
  I want a key for each finger with no movement required. :)
  - stevenwliao 7y ago
    https://www.gboards.ca/product/ginni https://www.gboards.ca/product/ginni I hear you can still get one before Christmas if you order soon :P

214 points by oftenwrong 7y ago

xwdv 7y ago

If you’re going to go small you might as well go all the way and get a 30% keyboard like the Gherkin. Very portable and not too bad as long as you’re willing to work with layers.

gregoryl 7y ago
Anywhere you know of that sells them (mostly?) assembled?
- dahx4Eev 7y ago
  Look for custom keyboard pcb sellers, or /r/mechmarket
gt2 7y ago
How do you quickly access the other layers to do a semicolon or colon or space with those keyboards? Saw a photo-- it's all letters.
- Ataraxy 7y ago
  Using software such as QMK you can program these custom boards to do anything. To answer your question all keys are accessible by turning whichever key you like into a modifier when held down so you can access another layer. It's not that bad when you realize through your entire life you do the same thing with SHIFT to capitalize letters for example. All of these small boards are just an extension of that concept.
  - gt2 7y ago
    Sounds fun! Thanks for the reply.

fouric 7y ago

If you want even better ergonomics, add tenting, concavity, and move the modifier keys + return/backspace to the thumb cluster (which should be shaped and angled so you're not moving your thumb laterally to hit it). The Dactyl-Manuform[1] is a good example of these things. [1] https://github.com/tshort/dactyl-keyboard https://github.com/tshort/dactyl-keyboard

TACIXAT 7y ago

Getting a (read: multiple) 60% keyboard really changed my life. It makes a lot more sense for not offsetting the mouse way to the right or the keyboard to the left (as you would with a full size). As well, not having to strain my wrist to hit arrow keys got rid of any pain I had. It's awesome having everything under my hands. I'll definitely follow this 40% project.

woliveirajr 7y ago
This. Ater having a "centered" keyboard without all those numerical keys, I began to wonder how keyboards still have the same layout even if not everybody uses those nubers on a daily basis.
- toastal 7y ago
  Repeat this to all laptop manufacturers. I'd rather have better grill speakers and a centered layout than a number pad and speakers under the keyboard.
kranner 7y ago
Same here but with a TKL (80%) keyboard. Using a full-sized keyboard with a mouse had offset my right (mouse) hand enough to give me sharp neck pain after a few hours of use. Switching to a TKL has completely eliminated this neck pain.
geowwy 7y ago
I had the opposite experience. My 60% keyboard ruined my hands with RSI. I strongly recommend Xah Lee's advice to anyone suffering from RSI: http://xahlee.info/kbd/ergonomic_keyboards_index.html http://xahlee.info/kbd/ergonomic_keyboards_index.html In my opinion the ideal setup for people people with RSI is a 80% keyboard, a seperate number pad, and a programmable keypad for commonly used shortcuts.

azhenley 7y ago

I recently moved to a 60% keyboard (Drop Alt with Clear switches) and really like it. I find the look of these 40% keyboards very appealing. But I also don’t want to have to relearn to type or customize every keyboard I ever purchase in the future. If those barriers get reduced I think they could be very intriguing. Ortholinear keyboards are especially interesting...

CarVac 7y ago
You don't have to customize everything you buy in the future. Even after getting a 40% (Mitosis) I can still type just fine on staggered keyboards. I recommend going to column stagger rather than ortholinear.
PretzelFisch 7y ago
I just hooked up my Alt with Clear this morning (previous daskeyboard). I miss the mx brown but I like how close the mouse is to the board and the reduction in reaching for the other keys. Having come from several years of split keyboards my main switching complaint was the switch and key quality was really bad. So this 40% is a positive step I hope catches on.

dangus 7y ago

Call me cynical, but I think a lot of the small style keyboards I see around the office are more of a fashion trend than anything. I remember when the insistence was on number pads, and how dare they be removed from our laptops and desktop keyboards. Fast forward a few years and I was made fun of at a programming job for preferring a full keyboard with a number pads. I guess programmers are too cool to enter in dollar amounts into Excel. Now the trend is for brightly multi-colored keys, which are often unlabeled [1], and basically an otherwise standard rectangular keyboard which has no obvious ergonomic benefit over a full 100+ key keyboard. [1] This makes no sense because the colored keys imply you enjoy looking at your keys and their unlabeled nature implies that you don’t need to look at your keys while you type. i.e. a fashion trend.

kranner 7y ago
> [1] This makes no sense because the colored keys imply you enjoy looking at your keys and their unlabeled nature implies that you don’t need to look at your keys while you type. i.e. a fashion trend. But you could still enjoy looking at your keyboard with the coloured keys while not using it to type at that exact moment.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- baroffoos 7y ago
  Exactly. Some of those colored unlabeled keyboards look stunning on the desk. Why should a keyboard be purely a utility and not part of the room design. I own an unlabeled keyboard and I mildly regret it. I have no issues typing with it but I struggle with special keys like trying to find ^ or f5. Typing 2fa codes are a pain. If I was buying a new keyboard I would get a labeled one but with no numpad
  - kranner 7y ago
    You could just buy new keycaps and switch them on your current keyboard.

snek 7y ago

I use a 40% keyboard (the planck ez), and I have to say I really enjoy using it. Typing english is about the same speed at this point, but I'm still lagging a bit behind in programming, mostly because my brain still confuses layers and shift. The thing I love most through is that I no longer curl my left pinky under my hand to hit shift, and my pinky doesn't hurt all the time.

george_ciobanu 7y ago

Check out KeyMouse, super cool concept.

clarry 7y ago
I have one. It's too heavy and bulky for a mouse, and too flat & unergonomic for a keyboard. There are lots of pinky keys I find very difficult or impossible to reach when the hand is resting in the natural position on the device. And you don't want to move the hand too much around or you end up moving the mouse... Honestly the tiny little mouse buttons suck too.

melling 7y ago

The chorded keyboard looks interesting too: http://tbf-rnd.life/blog/2019/06/16/0-learning-curve-chorded-typing/ http://tbf-rnd.life/blog/2019/06/16/0-learning-curve-chorded...

kettro 7y ago

I’ve been using an 1800 keyboard for the past few years (Leopold 980C), and think the size is perfect. I have access to all of the keys I need, all in a compact package. Add to that a programmable controller from Hasu, and it’s the perfect board for me. I never need to actually use the arrow keys, as I put them under a layer under hjkl. I also use a trackball (Kensington Slimblade), so I don’t need to have too much space to the right side of the keyboard.

mewse 7y ago

I'm mostly typing on Corne keyboards now; a split kit keyboard with 42 keys, so still considered 40%, but fewer keys than most other 40% boards. (so you have to learn to cope with not having dedicated arrow keys, for example) I can't imagine ever going back to a non-split keyboard; for me, it's a much better typing position to have my hands shoulder-width apart rather than squeezed together. I think that's more important than the "every key is within reach of the home row" argument for the 40% size in particular (although I've kind of fallen in love with the 40% size, but I could cope with going to a larger keyboard again better than I'd cope with going to a non-split, I think) But more than that, as a programmer, there's something meditative about maintaining the custom hardware I use to do my job. Double-checking the soldering, tuning the firmware, taking it apart to polish the components and then putting it back together again, etc. Reminds me of the Zen of Motorcycle Maintenance, in a lot of ways.

Ataraxy 7y ago
I'm a huge fan of my Corne (crkbd for those looking it up) also and I agree with everything you've said here. In fact I'm even thinking of building one with the outer columns chopped off if I can get a bit more used to chording. It didn't at all take me long to get used to the 40%, the split boards, or the column stagger after using a 60% for years and I was quickly back up to ~100wpm in about a week. This was my first time with the three. Most of all, I'm never going back to a non split if I have a choice.
dahx4Eev 7y ago
The Corne (crkbd) is great. I’m building a curved crkbd, similar to a dactyl manuform.
equalunique 7y ago
The Corne's predecessor, the Helix, was a significant leap forward from the Let's Split design that inspired it. It had a lot of firsts. First split design with reversible PCB, first split with per-key RGB, first split with OLEDs supported on both sides - necessitating some custom OLED code in QMK that was ahead of it's time. The Helix and it's derivatives (like Corne) represent the apex of 2018's DIY radically designed small boards movement, and the Japanese DIY keyboard movement too.

irjustin 7y ago

I use the Diverge 3 + Khaili box whites as my daily driver. It has more layers than I personally could ever effectively utilize. Absolutely love this setup. I picked it up over the Ergodox. After having used my co-worker's erogdox repeatedly, I did not like how far the thumb cluster was and this simply brought it closer which is what the author is explaining with the minimal amount of movement. I don't like 40% keyboards because I am still traditionalist in that numbers are still a first class key. Basically, what am I willing to give up and allow to be put into a cord/layer? If I could, I would bring the arrow keys back out, but the design's cost goes up a lot when that happens.

bootlooped 7y ago
I've found the small keys on the thumb clusters on the Ergodox to be a good location for select function keys. I don't have to hit them often, but much of the time I do, it must be in combination with some modifier keys for certain IDE shortcuts. I have seen layouts online where people assign nothing to them. As for the big keys on the thumb clusters, I don't find them to be an issue. I do think it would be better if they were moved in just a hair though.

shirro 7y ago

I tried a 60% about 10 years ago with a happy hacker but it wasn't a great keyboard to use and wasn't easily customisable or with many options. I just jumped back in this week with an Anne 2 Pro. I was moving from laptop back to desktop use and was looking to replace my full size with a mech TKL since I never use numpads ever but I wondered if corded replacements for some of those keys wouldn't be practical with a smarter bit of hardware so I gave it a go. I have ~` replacing escape since I need them for shell and programming. I don't understand how any keyboard could drop that key. I set caps as a function key to access arrows (on hjkl as well as wasd) as well as the function keys and a few other features and it operates as Esc on tap which would be useful if I didn't have jj escape from insert mode. Overall very happy so far. There are a few window manager and term combinations I used to need to reach over to the arrows and which I never bothered to remap that I can do one handed. It makes me want to become a proficient typist. The only problem is it has better led light shows than the old full size gaming keyboard and the kids want to type on it all day.

wy35 7y ago

I've built a Planck (40% ortho) and I can say for sure that I personally don't find the short finger travel between keys to be worth having to hit two keys to type a number, for example. Instead of moving one finger an extra row to type a number, I now have to move two fingers.

jacobolus 7y ago
The problem here is not the lack of an additional row of number keys, but the poor other choices in physical keyboard layout (based on largely following the historical pattern of a 19th century typewriter design; in the “planck” example with an arbitrary ergonomically-useless horizontal shifting of the rows). It also doesn’t work very well to put the numbers on a shifted layer but all on the same row, requiring 8 fingers across both hands to type them. If you re-arrange the keyboard into a shape according with human hand/arm ergonomics (of particular relevance for chording, moving or extending thumb keys toward the body; the standard spacebar and modifiers are not especially comfortable), and use a thumb key located in a convenient spot for the layer shift, with the numbers typed using the fingers of the opposite hand, then chorded numbers are just fine: more comfortable and efficient than the standard approach of putting numbers on a separate row. For cases when many numbers must be typed in sequence, making that layer shift key into an optional mode switch (to effectively turn half the keyboard into a numpad) works pretty well.
- clarry 7y ago
  If you re-arrange the keyboard into a shape according to human hand ergonomics, you can easily fit a number row that is easy to reach without making typos. See kinesis advantage. It's hard to imagine how requiring me to press two different keys for the same effect would increase speed and reduce typos. I suspect the effect is completely opposite. (Shift is painful enough and I hate typing camelcase code) Number keys are also indispensable for games where you need to switch items while moving. A finger or two are already going to be busy with the motion keys, adding two more fingers that don't overlap with the motions is going for some octopus keyhandling.
  - 7y ago

pugworthy 7y ago

Another person here who went to a 60% and I really enjoy it. I have built two with custom switch setups, one for gaming and one for general typing. There's a lot of satisfying craftsmanship to buying a circuit board here, a case there, switches matching your style of typing, and lastly keycaps that have a nice aesthetic and color balance.

briantakita 7y ago

One can make a programmable matrix layout keyboard with Two Koolertron keyboards. While it may be a bit bigger than the 40% keyboard, it's small, programmable, & has 96 keys or 94 keys in 3 toggleable layouts. Gamers tend to use it has an extended numpad but I use it as my general keyboard with bespoke tilting upwards toward the middle. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B076LRJ528?ref=ppx_pop_mob_ap_share https://www.amazon.com/dp/B076LRJ528?ref=ppx_pop_mob_ap_shar...

lioeters 7y ago
I've never seen those, nice! I like the cute and minimalistic design with no labels. It's advertised as a "Single-Handed Programmable Mechanical Keyboard", a unit having 48 keys (in 4 groups of 4x3) - I see, so one for each hand. It being programmable sounds great, one could position characters and modifiers any which way to please. Just curious, I suppose you've placed labels with your own mapping - or do you use the keys blank like that?
- slightwinder 7y ago
  They also have a "Koolertron Programmable Split Mechanical Keyboard" which is basically two units working as a complete keyboard.

rjplatte 7y ago

Absolutely love my Planck. I was going to build more keebs, but it's perfect for my needs, and my wrists feel infinitely better. Another excellent solution is the XD75, which is ortholinear, but puts a number pad between QWERT and YUIOP. The spacing is absolutely great.

rococode 7y ago

I'm a big fan of 75% keyboards. The layout retains nearly everything from a full-size keyboard except the number pad (i.e. there are F-keys, numbers, arrows, Escape, Home/PgUp/PgDown, etc.), but compresses it all into a single rectangular block. For me, it's the perfect balance of compactness and usability. Fits snugly in my backpack but allows me to use my preferred set of keybinds since all the relevant keys are there. Here's a site with a rundown of most of the popular sizes: https://www.keyboardco.com/blog/index.php/2017/08/full-size-tkl-60-and-more-a-guide-to-mechanical-keyboard-sizes/ https://www.keyboardco.com/blog/index.php/2017/08/full-size-...

equalunique 7y ago
Mostly I prefer 40%, but when something conventional is required (Blender, TES Daggerfall, as examples) I too like 75%.
52-6F-62 7y ago
Hahaha—that binary keyboard. For me, I'm a happy full-size user—at home and at work. Work: The discontinued Apple Magic wired (like: https://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2018/1/9/16872204/matias-apple-mac-keyboard-wired-backlight-rgb-ces-2018 https://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2018/1/9/16872204/ma...) Home: Logitech K840 https://www.logitech.com/en-us/product/k840-mechanical-corded-keyboard https://www.logitech.com/en-us/product/k840-mechanical-corde... I find both fantastic. Having learned to use the numpad by navigating speedily through old hierarchical menus on a DOS-based POS system, I don't think I can let them go.

equalunique 7y ago

I use many different computers every day, and for the past 3 years, I have preferred 40% keyboards to get the job done. Basically, the smaller the keyboard, the easier the layout is to remember. When it fits completely under your hands, with no extra columns or rows necessitating hand movement away from the home row, you can then commit the layout to your body's muscle memory faster. It then becomes more efficient and comfortable to use. EDIT: On my current layout, I do something pretty unconventional, which is saying a lot considering I'm using Dvorak. So I've mapped the B key on my Mods layer to Backspace, D to Delete, T to Tab, and E for Enter (just to name a handful). Now, I prefer this to having mods requiring a long pinky reach to either side. It's also liberating using a layer for an extra level of intention before hitting stuff like Delete, Backspace, and Enter. If you're reading this, there's a good chance you've accidentally hit Enter one on a message or button when you didn't mean to. Especially if you've dabbled with HHKB layout. With this type of arrangement, worrying about that is a thing of the past.

nabeelms 7y ago

Personally, I prefer the Kinesis Advantage 2 for most of my typing work. It's more pricy than many other keyboards but I've always found dev work pretty easy with it.

walkingolof 7y ago
Second that, its also wider than these tiny small keyboards, which is a plus comfort-wise.

xouse 7y ago

I know a lot of people who think they can touch type the number row, but I've yet to meet anyone who can actually do it at anything resembling their normal typing speed and without errors. If people could there would be no reason for the numberpad to exist. I'm a very fast typist and I've always struggled with touch typing the number row. Thirty minutes into using a split 40% keyboard and I was using the number row at full speed, something that has eluded me my whole life. And of course, it's a hell of a lot easier to hold down a key with my thumb and touch type the qwerty row than to make the normal awkward stretch that fullsize keyboards use. That told me pretty much everything I needed to know. Once I learn a layout I can type any key that's on the home row or the rows that are directly above or below it and a thumb modifier faster than I can type any keys outside of the three home rows sans a modifier. The idea that many people have that somehow 40% keyboards are about having less keys at your immediate disposal is completely backwards. There are 36 keys that are within a 1 key displacement of the home row. With the natural 36 and two thumb modifiers on each side that's already 180 keys that are all touch typeable, and that's without even getting into any of the fancy stuff like being able to tap for one function and hold for another, or using two modifiers at once, or using a vim style leader key, or chording, or having modes that you can switch into. The smaller keyboards aren't about having less keys, it's not like I woke up one morning and decided to never use function keys or curly brackets again, it's about removing all the cruft that that can't be pressed easily and mapping it in a way that it can.

rimliu 7y ago
The most popular layout for my language (Lithuanian) has our "additional" letters ĄČĘĖĮŠŲŪŽ on the number row. So if you are touch-typing in Lithuanian you do touch-type the number row, just not for numbers.
roel_v 7y ago
The problem is that you need to be able to touch type, but also know how to not touch type, i.e. actually knowing what character is where, when entering passwords, regular expressions etc. I can touch type, but I have no idea where all the individual numbers are; I have to type 'in the air' to make my muscle memory explicit. When entering something character by character, you can't really 'touch type' them; touch typing is about operating at an abstraction level above 'character by character'.

pdpi 7y ago

It really annoys me when people try to claim scientific evidence (Fitts’s law in this case) for their unscientific choices. There is no frequency-of-use analysis, nothing about the cognitive cost of remembering a very very unique set of key bindings (the guy on my team with a 40% keyboard still struggles with some common keystrokes after several months), just “fitts’s law and we move less”.

BigJ1211 7y ago
It's hard to measure I suppose, I personally started using a Redox Wireless (and now own several split, non-split mechanical keyboards of all variaties). I went from being unable to comfortably type a 1/4 of a page to being able to type an entire page at a time. (I'm a developer, so this is really important to me. I was starting to have RSI/CTS complaints at the start of the year) Here's a study I could find with a quick search: http://ergo.human.cornell.edu/conferences/hfes02/gttalkhfes02.pdf http://ergo.human.cornell.edu/conferences/hfes02/gttalkhfes0... Essentially comfort isn't significantly higher than with a standard keyboard, but there's less discomfort.
- pdpi 7y ago
  I'm not in any way, shape or form suggesting that you _don't_ benefit from whatever keyboard you're using. I'm just saying that, if it's anecdotal ("works well for me"), say so — don't hide it behind a veneer of faux science.
ghostbrainalpha 7y ago
I was your co-worker. Built a custom board entirely for aesthetic reasons, and didn't really know how to do anything that required a function key without trial and error for about a year. Then a co-worker made fun of me. I memorized what all the modifiers did and became fully proficient in about 48 hours.

Nursie 7y ago

Not for me, thanks. I have a ... I don't know, it's like a 60% but with added arrows and ins/del/home/end/pgup/pgdn off to the right like on a 80%, but it's not a 80% or a standard 75% because there's no F key row. I wouldn't want to go any smaller, I already have an extra 'super' key to access F functions, and I already have minor issues just with the physical size. Maybe I have big hands? Either way, I like the desk space back, but I think there are limits here.

highcapacity1 7y ago

Interesting concept but I use a keyboard for it to be efficient, not trendy

skocznymroczny 7y ago

While I like the look of some of these 40%/60% keyboards, the tall keys are a big no-no for me. My wrists hurt just by looking at it.

wishinghand 7y ago
Some have really flat keys, like this: https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/736191/49698493-06462b80-fc08-11e8-95fd-8d18763b38ff.jpg https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/736191/49698493-06...

halotrope 7y ago

Most people would benefit much more from practicing proper (touch-) typing than upgrading/innovating devices.

joosters 7y ago
Would programmers actually benefit? Realistically, how often are you limited by your typing speed when coding? I can type fast but there’s no way I could ever keep writing code at my typing speed, I’m always pausing to think about what I’m writing. If you type slower, you are still thinking about the code as you type. Is typing really the limiting factor, or is it actually the thinking?
- kgwgk 7y ago
  I think the discussion is about ergonomics, not speed.
  - joosters 7y ago
    Much of the discussion is about having fewer keys, resulting in more multiple key presses to type certain symbols. That’s not improving ergonomics.
    - kgwgk 7y ago
      It seems some people find that not having to move the arms makes up for hand contortions. But you’re right, the article conclusion is that “First of all, the reduced distances will increase speed, (...) If it turns out that 40% keyboards can reduce Repetitive Strain Injury or R.S.I. (...)” Anyway, I think touch typing helps in all fronts. The alternative is not just slower typing, it also adds a mental load that can only distract from the thinking.
- KaiserPro 7y ago
  Touch typing is not about speed to start with, its about the correct placement of the hands. Yes not looking at the keyboard is a useful side effect, but from ergonomics point of view, not over stretching to reach a key really is important. I was forced to learn touch typing when I was about 11. I hated every moment of it. It was an interactive program, and I had to have a box over my keyboard so that I was forced to use muscle memory to get the right key. But, it meant that I have my hand in the right place, the correct angle, and use the correct force. As a side effect, I'm not thinking about where letters are, and having to look at my keyboard(as much). This means that typing is almost like speaking, in terms of cognitive load. (hand writing is much slower and arduous for me)

KaiserPro 7y ago

I really can't see how having to hold down two keys at the same time is going to help RSI. (because to get to the special keys you have to hold down a modifier key) When you have your fingers contorted and under stress trying to hold two keys down, thats when RSI really kicks in. I would go out on a limb and say that these keyboard are going to make one's RSI even worse.

ChymeraXYZ 7y ago
If you program the keyboard slightly smart then the modifier key is always on the other hand than the "primary" key. I'm not going to claim what it does for/against RSI, but I have been using a split 40% for the last 3 years and I never looked back, in terms of comfort.
jdietrich 7y ago
The modifiers are placed under the thumbs, so no contortion is necessary. Try it yourself - with the possible exception of the B and Y keys, you can reach all the alpha keys perfectly comfortably with your thumb simultaneously pressing the space bar.
the_gipsy 7y ago
You're only holding down a few more modifiers on a 40, and with the thumbs which are underused on a full. Also finger/hand positions are definitely much more contorted, or spread, on a full keyboard.

b0rsuk 7y ago

Where is a hexagonal keyboard when you need it? Hexes are sweet for strategy and puzzle games, but could also be sweet for roguelikes if input devices were better. A smaller keyboard barely solves any problem, especially if you have palms as large as mine. But a hex keyboard would. Not even Kickstarter has something for hexagonal input device.

intrepidhero 7y ago
I just happened across http://xahlee.info/kbd/benzene666_keyboard.html http://xahlee.info/kbd/benzene666_keyboard.html will reading through some of the links in this thread. Unfortunately his review is spartan, and not positive.
- b0rsuk 7y ago
  Hexagonal arrow keys would have been enough.

halvdan 7y ago

I own a HHKB[1] and while very pleasant to type with the fact that the function keys are on another layer can be cumbersome in some IDEs. In IntelliJ IDEs you have Ctrl + F9 to build (or something like that) which means pressing Ctrl + Fn + 9. Maybe the experience can be improved with better placement of the Fn-key (which on the HHKB is in the lower right corner). Reading the comments about experiences with split and/or ergonomic keyboards makes me want to try some other variants. [1] https://www.hhkeyboard.com/ https://www.hhkeyboard.com/

petepete 7y ago
As a Vimmer, the HHKB is very close to perfection. I can reach every key without having to move my hands too far, the Fn key fall right under my right little finger and Control being in the correct place is a huge win. The fact that it has Topre switches is the icing on the cake, I wouldn't use any other keyboard on a prolonged basis.
- wyclif 7y ago
  What is it about the Topre switches that you prefer?
  - petepete 7y ago
    I like the smooth action and 'thunk'. It's a pleasure to type on after many years' use.

Yizahi 7y ago

People like to talk a lot about KB ergonomics, reducing carpal syndrome and there is a reason for it, but I don't understand why almost nobody does the one thing that contributes the most for improvement - inverted KB stand. This thing on the bottom - https://imgur.com/a/yne4lPR https://imgur.com/a/yne4lPR . People fiddle with layouts, key travel, key shape, switches etc. but that doesn't really matter if your wrists are crooked. If your wrists aren't straight you will injure them over time, that's a fact. And I see almost none KBs which allow changing KB level in a good way (in a bad way almost all of them - with stupid stands in back of KB).

cerebellum42 7y ago
Split ergo keyboards like the Ergodox allow for that kind of positioning and more.
eeZah7Ux 7y ago
Indeed. A lot of the ergonomics people talk about is not backed by any scientific research. Switch to dvorak to minimize finger travel and use a flat keyboard on an inverted stand.
Symbiote 7y ago
I cringe slightly when I see people designing mechanical keyboards like this [1]. That's a great "standard" layout! It's split, it still has space around the arrow and navigation keys to aid finding them by touch, and the numpad is on the left. But there's a 1.5cm (or so) tilt on the thing! Removing that is always the first thing any ergonomics guide instructs, but here it's a fixed part of the case. Many DIY split ergonomic keyboards either have many tenting/tilting options, or are flat allowing you to make your own [2]. [1] https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=103144.0 https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=103144.0 [2] http://xahlee.info/kbd/diy_keyboards_index.html http://xahlee.info/kbd/diy_keyboards_index.html
oftenwrong 7y ago
I have a "negative tilt" keyboard tray on my desk. Similar to this: http://www.workwhilewalking.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/keyboard-tilt-dynamic.jpg http://www.workwhilewalking.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/k... I do find it is more comfortable for my wrists.

ianai 7y ago

Is anybody trying to combine the mouse input with the keys themselves? Ie embedding a nib? I’m thinking like a light touch on a home row key being interpreted as a mouse click. Have the nib input only register if the key is either depressed or not, depending on implementation.

g4d 7y ago
Or you could just get a thinkpad, right?
whywhywhywhy 7y ago
TEX Yoda[0] mechanical and Thinkpad Compact USB Keyboard[1] scissor switch might interest you. [0] https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=3924 https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_det... [1] https://www.lenovo.com/gb/en/accessories-and-monitors/keyboards-and-mice/keyboards/KEYBOARD-UK-English/p/0B47221 https://www.lenovo.com/gb/en/accessories-and-monitors/keyboa...
CarVac 7y ago
If you have enough thumb keys then on a custom board you can put mouse keys on a layer with QMK.

songzme 7y ago

2 years ago I bought this vertex core 40% keyboard: https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=3550 https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_det... Unfortunately, I type in dvorak layout and the keyboard I purchased did not work out. I have to press 3 keys to type the letter 'z' because of the strange meta layers. I switched to dvorak because I had minor wrist pains and I hoped that switching to dvorak would help. The pain went away (maybe a coincidence), but dvorak was a pleasure to type so I stuck with it. Everytime there is a new keyboard, I try it out and become disappointed because it is heavily optimized for qwerty layouts.

ChymeraXYZ 7y ago
One of the main draws for me to build a somewhat custom keyboard is that you can program it yourself. That way you can modify the layout so it suits dvorak layouts.
- css 7y ago
  There is a drop-in PCB for the Vortex Core called the Atom47[0] that supports QMK[1]: [0] https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware/tree/master/keyboards/maartenwut/atom47 https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware/tree/master/keyboards/ma... [1] https://qmk.fm/ https://qmk.fm/
CarVac 7y ago
The answer is custom layouts. Here's my layout for the Mitosis split ergo keyboard designed for dvorak if you want inspiration. https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware/blob/master/keyboards/mitosis/keymaps/carvac_dv/keymap.c https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware/blob/master/keyboards/mi... I have mouse keys, a number layer that's on the home row, actual arrow keys, and no contortions needed for any of the alpha keys, all on a tiny 46-key layout.

WalterBright 7y ago

I still much much prefer a full size keyboard. I could only find one on Amazon that would connect with bluetooth. I throw it in my luggage when traveling so at least in my hotel room I can use a full size keyboard. I hate those wretched trackpads on laptops, and also throw a full size bluetooth mouse in my luggage.

blacksmythe 7y ago
I don't travel with an extra keyboard, but I do take a mouse. An external mouse is so much better, and hardly takes up any space.

adambyrtek 7y ago

This is a good description of the default 40% layout and function layers on MiniVan keyboards: https://drop.com/talk/115/where-did-all-my-keys-go-a-look-into-the-function-layers-of-the-mini-van https://drop.com/talk/115/where-did-all-my-keys-go-a-look-in... Of course you can reconfigure everything to suit your needs and flash directly to your board using open source QMK firmware: https://docs.qmk.fm https://docs.qmk.fm Custom keyboards are a great hobby for people who want to control and hack their own hardware.

kentosi 7y ago

As someone who uses IntelliJ all day long I couldn't use a 40% keyboard at work due to all the layering combinations needed for F1 -> F12. However I did try for a while, and the best I've gotten to is remapping my Caps Lock key to a meta key that converts hjkl to my arrow keys. It's a small step, but I haven't looked back since. Typing is SO much faster when you never have to leave the home row.

vijucat 7y ago

I have a Diverge 3 and I love the split aspect of it (easier on the wrists / nerves), and love the programmability (I have the keys that I use most near the home row), and I appreciate the wrist rest, but I miss the function keys' row. It has 71 keys. I think 40% keyboards work well for gamers, but are impractical for developers, who need to access all the symbol keys ( (, {, [, etc;), and often need access to the function keys, too. Layering, having to press Fn and another key to achieve what could be a single keypress on a 101-key keyboard, just adds work. The input mechanism must be seamless so that one may focus on the actual work. The keyboard should just disappear. The much-touted keyboard.io has the same limitation.

mdpye 7y ago
I can't reach `]` without moving my hands from the home row. Nor can I reliably find it using my weakest finger without looking down. Then after I've used it, I must re-home my hands before continuing. Don't even get me started on = and +... But on my Planck, I press both of my thumbs down in their resting positions and the home row suddenly becomes [{( )}] (with the round parens under my index fingers). Can't get much more seamless than.
- vijucat 7y ago
  On keyboards where you can re-map keys, you can place symbol keys nearby? > I press both of my thumbs down in their resting positions and the home row suddenly becomes Three keys to type in one symbol sounds bad to me, but it sounds like it works just fine for you!
callum-oakley 7y ago
As a full time 40% keyboard user, I take issue with the sentiment that the form factor is impractical for development. Holding a layer modifier to access symbols on the home row is less work than moving to the far reaches of a 101 key board, and often having to hit shift as well anyway! I wrote an article on the subject recently if you're up for having your assumptions challenged: https://callumoakley.net/posts/48-keys-are-plenty https://callumoakley.net/posts/48-keys-are-plenty

GrayShade 7y ago

I don't have RSI, but it seems to me that rotating your wrists to press Ctrl with your pinky is one of the larger parts of the problem. I prefer to press Ctrl with the side of my palm, but that doesn't work on some Lenovo and Apple laptops which Fn is at the edge of the keyboard.

knome 7y ago
You may want to check the BIOS for your laptop. It often has the ability to swap the `ctrl` and `fn` keys, which is nice for those of us that find their choice to put them on backwards from how they ought to have annoying.
- GrayShade 7y ago
  That's a fair point, but I avoid on principle laptops with stupid keyboard layouts (which seem to be more and more common these days). On the other hand, my current laptop (which I haven't bought) has no End key, but rather Home, PgUp, PgDn, Power.
dsego 7y ago
Yeah, one good thing about apple computers is that the Cmd button is under your thumb, much easier than Ctrl.
boring_twenties 7y ago
How is this still a thing in 2019. Just remap Caps Lock to Ctrl, problem solved. If using Linux, simply add `ctrl:nocaps` to the XKBOPTIONS= line in /etc/default/keyboard, e.g.: XKBOPTIONS='other:options,ctrl:nocaps'
- GrayShade 7y ago
  I did that, but never used it. I still find pressing Ctrl to be more comfortable because it requires less movement.
  - 7y ago

xondono 7y ago

I find this kinds of keyboards very interesting, but doing CAD work seems like a pain. The biggest problem I find with all of this is that most of my software has locked down (or crappy systems for changing) shortcuts, so it would be painfully hard to set up one of this. Interesting stuff anyway.

Symbiote 7y ago
For CAD work, something like a large macropad might be helpful -- giving additional keys, rather than taking some away. On a keyboard like the one linked below, every key can be programmed arbitrarily, i.e. you can set a single key to do "Control X" or whatever. I don't know if this can do it, but things like having a single key do "Control X, 5, move mouse left 5 pixels, Control K" are possible on some of these mechanical keyboards, given some programming ability. ("Gaming" macropads are also an option, the flashy LEDs can usually be disabled.) http://xahlee.info/kbd/ly092_mini_keyboard.html http://xahlee.info/kbd/ly092_mini_keyboard.html

dsego 7y ago

Not sold on the RSI benefits. See, I bought a Planck, thinking that the ortholinear layout would make sense. But it didn't work really. Maybe I'm just accustomed to the staggered layout, but it just felt too cramped. Besides, I don't think that less movement automatically leads to less strain. In fact it felt like my fingers didn't get to stretch enough, and my wrists were too close for comfort. All in all, the mouse still seems to be the biggest issue for me, especially the micro movements, so I adjust the mouse to have more travel. But in the end the most comfortable experience is a laptop with a decent touchpad, no need to reach for the mouse and the wrists don't move much or at all.

ghthor 7y ago
Careful with the trackpads. My experience with them is my hand is very tense using them and all that tension traveled up my arm into my shoulder and gave me horrible pain. I've since alleviated it by regular intervals switching between trackball and traditional mice.
pietrovismara 7y ago
Interesting as I always hated touchpads even after having tried several models of different quality. I'm very happy with my vertical mouse on the other hand. It only performs slightly worse than a normal mouse on very small precision movements but it's much more comfortable and still retains the speed of a mouse vs touchpad.
- dsego 7y ago
  Have you ever tried using a macbook? That was the conversion point for me.
aeyes 7y ago
Your observation of micro movements of the mouse causing issues is hitting the nail on the head. This movement comes from the wrist and should be avoided. All pro gamers use a somewhat low sensitivity which forces the movement to come from the forearm instead of the wrist. Higher accuracy isn't the only reason, you'll get chronic wrist pain within a couple of months if the mouse movement comes from your wrist. I'd recommend at least 20cm/360, better 25+. No accel.

rwbaskette 7y ago

I use the olkb plank (https://olkb.com/planck?category=eotw https://olkb.com/planck?category=eotw) both at home and at the office. It started as fun to build, solder, and program but I soon realized that I was less fatigued after typing all day. My wrists don't break outward and I maintain my proper starting position longer as result of having less distance to travel between keystrokes. Take it for what it's worth, but at the very least they are a fun hobby project.

celeritascelery 7y ago

> It’s sort of obvious to figure out that the less we have to move our hand from the home row to the arrow keys, the more time we save. There is however a more formalized way to look at this in the field of user interface design. I feel like this thinking is flawed. When you are pressing a sequence of keys, your fingers don’t wait for the first key to be pressed before the next finger starts moving to its key. This means that it is in position right after the first key is hit. One of the reasons that more optimized layouts (Dvorak, etc) don’t seem to produce any speed up, Even though from a Fitt’s law perspective they should. Having a tiny keyboard will not make you faster and may slow you down because of all the layers you now need to use.

devit 7y ago

Physically removing the number pad and the arrow keys can be useful because it allows the mouse to be placed closer to the center, but removing the number row and function keys doesn't seem to provide any significant benefit for desktop usage.

vollmond 7y ago

I love my Keebio Iris; I've built three at this point, for my two work machines and my home office. 60%, split, columnar, programmable with QMK. Since they're completely split, with only a cable between them, I can place them in whatever angle is perfectly comfortable for me, and I have room for my track ball between them for super easy access [0] The main power in these custom boards is in the firmware, allowing you limitless customization. If you're the sort of person to place Escape or Control on your CapsLock button via OS tools, this takes that to another level. I never have to take my hands out of home position. Some of my layout details [1]: * When spacebar is held down, it activates a navigation layer instead of typing space. In this layer, I have HJKL arrow keys, along with page up/down, home/end, my numrow becomes function keys, and Tab/CapsLock cycle through browser tabs. * The CapsLock button is Escape when tapped, Control when held down. * The damn. key [0] is Control-Alt-Delete when tapped once, Control-Shift-Escape when tapped twice. * The fn key, when held, turns the right half of the board into a traditional numpad descending from the 789 keys in the numrow. * The raise key, when held, gives access to any special characters not already in the main layout (-_{}[]+=|\) I also have a separate BDN9 macropad [0] with rotary encoders for volume/zoom, and keys mapped to the debugging navigation keys for software debugging. Also has a screenshot macro (print screen, win+R, type "mspaint", enter, wait 750ms, control+P). It has a key that will open notepad on a single-tap (win+R, type "notepad", enter) or type out a long email header I use frequently when double-tapped. There is certainly an aesthetic component (I love the look and feel of my boards and my keycaps), and the build was a big draw (soldering everything together, programming the layout), but the benefit of having a totally custom setup for my specific needs is fantastic. [0] My primary work setup: https://imgur.com/a/uvuDeE3 https://imgur.com/a/uvuDeE3 [1] My QMK layout file: https://github.com/imnotpete/qmk_firmware/blob/master/keyboards/iris/keymaps/sam/keymap.c https://github.com/imnotpete/qmk_firmware/blob/master/keyboa...

gbrown 7y ago

I never have any problems with wrist fatigue, and I've sometimes wondered if it's because I type "wrong". Holding your fingers at home row and stretching always felt weird to me, and I learned to type naturally. I primarily use three digits on each hand plus thumbs (no pinkies), and I move my hands back and forth as needed - no stretching or reaching. I can type ~60 WPM if I'm really trying, but I never really have occasion to type that fast

vollmond 7y ago
This sounds a bit like my wife's typing. Super weird to watch, but she can go fast and never complains of pain despite doing 100% of her typing on a laptop. My computer-related pain started maybe 3 years into my career, and mostly manifested in my fingers and hand, less in my wrist. I switched at that point to a Logitech Wingman trackball and a Microsoft Natural 4000 split, negative-tilt keyboard, and the pain went away almost instantly and hasn't come back in the 12 years or so since.
- gbrown 7y ago
  Interesting. I've never had trouble with the bog-standard MS keyboards that happen to come with most office workstations. I do like the feel of hybrid mechanical-rubber keys though, the click is nice. My wife says my typing looks really weird too, but it works for me. Hours and hours of AIM chat when I was in junior high and high school paid off I guess.
amflare 7y ago
Same. By hovering, my wrists are never at a bad angle. In fact, looking at my hands right now, I can see them naturally sitting at roughly the same angles as those fancy ergonomic keyboards, despite the keyboard being a cheap flat one.

rcpt 7y ago

I never really committed to hjkl until getting a pok3r. I love 60% keyboards now though I still get a bit mixed up every now and then when I accidentally hit the combo for "insert" or find myself in the wrong mode.

stockkid 7y ago

40% keyboards are cool. I was initially skeptical when I moved to a 40% keyboard from a full sized split keyboard. After couple of months, I observed no drop in productivity or had strains.

dlevine 7y ago

I have an ortholinear 40% that sits in my closet collecting dust. I used it for a little while, but just didn't like it that much. Despite the claims of it being more ergonomic, I found that I was contorting my pinky into some strange positions to hit some of the keys, and was getting some strain. Plus, with 40 keys, you probably need 2 additional layers to get in all of the functionality. I also have an ErgoDox (68-key split ortholinear). I used it for a while but I just never liked ortholinear. I have used a 60% keyboard for most of the past 4 years that seems to me about as functional as a full-sized keyboard. Basically all that I lose are the arrow and function keys (and ESC), all of which can be easily emulated with a second layer (I don't even think about it any more). I mapped caps lock to ESC. I know that some people need a numpad, but I don't, and I like the form factor of a 60% (plus I built it up with switches and keycaps from an old Apple Extended Keyboard, which were much better than the modern Apple stuff).

bitxbit 7y ago
This is why 65% keyboards are becoming popular. You get the compactness of a 60% with the functionality of a TKL. HHKB format is also nice if you can get used to it.
- wyclif 7y ago
  Any examples of a 65% keyboard? I've never heard this terminology thrown around till now.
  - dlevine 7y ago
    Yeah. The Whitefox or Drop's Alt Keyboard or the Tada68 or the Magicforce 68. You can find most of them on Amazon.

lemper 7y ago

currently, i use split and concave mechanical keyboards with 38 keys[1] and 42 keys[2] and i have no problem so far. i also put mods on the homerows for left and right hand. whenever i want to type numbers, i only have to move down my thumb and then move down one of my three fingers. for symbols, i write haskell and racket, i don't have any problem either. as for f-keys and common shortcuts, i also don't have any problem. while writing prose, i literally don't have to move my wrists at all[3]. and here's my current layout [4]. [1] https://assets.bigcartel.com/product_images/248892149/IMG20191117024445.jpg?auto=format&fit=max&h=1000&w=1000 https://assets.bigcartel.com/product_images/248892149/IMG201... [2] https://github.com/ibnuda/dactyl-keyboard/tree/coffin https://github.com/ibnuda/dactyl-keyboard/tree/coffin or tree/master [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIBFrzXZbec https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIBFrzXZbec [4] https://github.com/ibnuda/qmk_firmware/tree/rarded/keyboards/handwired/dactyl_manuform/4x5/keymaps/sunat https://github.com/ibnuda/qmk_firmware/tree/rarded/keyboards...

6gvONxR4sf7o 7y ago

What's everybody's preferred "shit I'm developing RSI and need to make ergonomic changes" keyboards? Wrist and thumb is unhappy, if that's happened to any of you.

secure 7y ago
Kinesis Advantage :)
gattilorenz 7y ago
Same problem (actually worse than yours), have been using the employer-provided Microsoft Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000 for more than a year, and resting a TouchPad (Magic TouchPad 2, I'm a Mac user) on the home/page up keys. It's inexpensive, comfortable and quick and easy to adapt to (not ortholinear, no weird layouts). The downside is the membrane keys... I'd love to have a mechanical shaped like this and with a recess for the TouchPad.
AWildC182 7y ago
1) Learned to type correctly by switching to dvorak. Nothing to do with the supposed benefits of the layout, just forces you to relearn from scratch the right way. 2) Mechanical keyboard (doesn't have to be mechanical specifically) with very light actuation force
wyclif 7y ago
I've been in the industry for decades as a engineer/programmer/developer, and I've never gotten RSI. I'm a big fan of the old IBM Model M mechanical keyboards with the buckling springs. I know it's not as cool as some of the things available or that people in this thread are making, but it gets the job done. It's also heavy and doesn't slide around, it has a metal bottom chassis and in case of an attack on your office, you could potentially use it as a shield or weapon. Years ago after I got into Linux, I got one of these and it's still going strong. One of the best purchases I've ever made. Best of all, the Ctrl key is where it should be for *NIX people: https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/40PSA https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/40PSA

agumonkey 7y ago

I need that for my car.

tenebrisalietum 7y ago

I want to go the other way. I want a 200% keyboard. I don't want to have to type SHIFT for capital letters or symbols and I want extra keys for diagonal cursor movement. The SHIFT key is an artifact of the physical limitations of a typewriter and is no longer needed.

ReC757 7y ago
I want a key for each finger with no movement required. :)
- stevenwliao 7y ago
  https://www.gboards.ca/product/ginni https://www.gboards.ca/product/ginni I hear you can still get one before Christmas if you order soon :P