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I am fairly certain 40% of all citizens would shift their income to a tax haven if possible.
by systemtest 7y ago
I am fairly certain 40% of all citizens would shift their income to a tax haven if possible.
- exabrial 7y agoThat's exactly how I feel about it. I don't think "paying" taxes are something that is honorable. The money is removed from you forcefully.
- SolaceQuantum 7y agoHonestly, I'm down for paying taxes. It pays for my lifestyle and is propostional to my lifestyle. If I own land, that land is only valuable due to the society that land exists in. It's protected, and safe, due to public services like roads, which law enforcement, fire control folks, postal service, and ambulances drive upon. I've earned my income from a lifetime of education, starting from my public school kindergarden all the way to me state university attendance, which in of itself is only useful to attend because there are bright minds teaching what they research via government grants. All of that costs money, and paying taxes is more or less funding my lifestyle as it is now. If you want to not pay taxes, then stop paying taxes and give up everything you purchase with them. Go subsistence farm in the woods or something, or deal with bartering instead of money (which itself is only useful because there is some regulation to keep it useful).
- 9c8675a8 7y ago> It pays for my lifestyle No it doesn't. You're deluded, a hypocrite or a liar.
- mcv 7y agoWhat's hypocritical about this? I suppose if you honestly believed SolaceQuantum was wrong[0], you might indeed believe they were either deluded or a liar, but even then, what's hypocritical about it? [0] They're not wrong of course; everything claimed in that comment is entirely (or 'mostly', at least) correct. I'd love to see you try to refute any of it.
- cascom 7y agoI suspect few people here think they should pay no tax, however I’m quite sure that most would disagree about what the “right” amount would/should be. Furthermore, this is exacerbated by the quality and quantity of public goods different people use (e.g. there are plenty of people that have never set foot in any type of public school/university)
- SolaceQuantum 7y ago"however I’m quite sure that most would disagree about what the “right” amount would/should be." I currently spend a little over 30% of my income as the sticker price to living in a first world country. Compared to the price of renting an apartment in my city, I think this is a steal. People who never set foot in any type of public school or university benefit from everyone else being educated, because everyone else designs their clothes, their cars, their planes, their buildings, roads, computing devices, etc. No one is self sufficient in the society I live in. It's totally possible to go and be self sufficient. This reduces your income so you don't pay taxes, since you're not interacting with government-protected, government-manipulated currency. Seems reasonable to me.
- cascom 7y agoI'm glad you feel like you are a net beneficiary - but my comment really boils down to "reasonable people can disagree" and "not everyone has the same experience"
- ne0flex 7y agoI think most people would be down for paying taxes, however their main gripe, in my opinion, is that the quality of services (infrastructure, tax dollars being used for NSA spying on citizens, etc.) we're getting back for our tax dollars is dropping while taxes increase.
- moccachino 7y agoTaxes on regular people increases and the quality of services they provide decreases, precisely because of the tax-evading [0] behavior of the multinational corporations. [0]: If you feel the need to point out the difference between tax-avoidance and tax-evasion then please watch this first: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2q-Csk-ktc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2q-Csk-ktc
- SolaceQuantum 7y agoYes, I agree. We should vote appropirately, organize appropriately, and fully fund the IRS to be able to go after people who aren't paying their fair share in society.
- appleiigs 7y agoA consumption tax (a tax on sales) is proportional to your lifestyle. If someone chooses to buy a gas guzzler v8, they should pay taxes on the gallons they burn to pay for roads and emissions. Consumption tax is also easier to be set to a geographic location, and harder to shift to different tax jurisdiction. Harder to play games in comparison to an income tax. But nobody wants it. Very unpopular in a vote because, people rather have someone else pay such as rich people and corporations.
- snsr 7y agoConsumption taxes are regressive, serving to further exacerbate income inequality.
- appleiigs 7y agoIt's not regressive. It's flat.
- khyryk 7y agoRich people rarely buy stuff in proportion to their greater income (earning 100x more but not buying cars worth 100x more, etc). This would mainly affect the not-so-rich people, who, given fixed purchase budgets, would probably respond by consuming less, which is likely to hurt businesses with lower demand for just about any product.
- appleiigs 7y ago> This would mainly affect the not-so-rich people, who, given fixed purchase budgets, Certain items can be excempt from sales tax, such as groceries. > Likely to hurt businesses Since when is the HN crowd worried about hurting businesses. Most people here want higher taxes for corporations.
- jmcqk6 7y agoConsumption taxes are also regressive in that in the lower your income, the harder those taxes become to pay. I would prefer a tax scheme in which you're ability to pay the tax is proportional to the taxes you owe.
- exabrial 7y agoThat's fine if you want to pay them. But you should not and cannot ethically force others to consent to pay them.
- mcv 7y agoI think paying taxes to the society you're profiting from is entirely reasonable. The problem is that corporations are free to profit in one country but declare those profits in another country. Corporations can do that but people can't. (What's even worse, US citizens (US "persons" even, you don't have to be a citizen for this) that live and work abroad and have nothing to do with the US, still have to pay their taxes there. And also in the country where they actually work and live. People get treated the exact opposite of corporations in this way. Though the US is the only country in the world that does this. Perhaps they're the only one with the power to enforce this world wide; any bank that wants to do business with the US has to report on these "US persons" and play by US rules.)
- koolba 7y ago> What's even worse, US citizens (US "persons" even, you don't have to be a citizen for this) that live and work abroad and have nothing to do with the US, still have to pay their taxes there. That’s the price you pay to have the most powerful country in the world as a destination to which you can always retreat.
- afthonos 7y agoDoesn’t change the fact that US corporations aren’t so bound.
- lovich 7y agoIf that was a justification then why aren't corporation's paying that price?
- sgc 7y agoWe are aware that is the price you have to pay. However "The United States is one of just two countries (the other being the African nation of Eritrea) that taxes individuals’ based on their citizenship".[1] That should at least give you pause to ask why, whether it is fair, and most importantly, if there is not a better solution to whatever problem this policy attempts to solve. [1] https://taxfoundation.org/how-countries-define-their-income-tax-borders-0/ https://taxfoundation.org/how-countries-define-their-income-...
- tw04 7y agoSurely you have an alternative method of funding government then?
- apta 7y agoThere are historic (and present) examples of governments that do not tax their citizens and residents. The government should be engaging in business/trade/stock market/etc. and not steal from its citizens.
- WilliamEdward 7y agoYou are benefiting from the fruits of society and in some way should give back. Taxes are maybe not the best system, but not paying them is not 'honorable'
- authoritarian 7y agoI don't necessarily disagree with your statement, but I also don't feel particularly honorable funding invasions of foreign countries, killing civilians with drone strikes, developing and producing massive amounts of weaponry, spying on American citizens, and other unsavory business the US is involved with
- thatfrenchguy 7y agoI don’t think you using roads or any public service is honorable if you don’t want to contribute. Markets and wealth don’t exist without governments to enforce them.
- Cthulhu_ 7y agoI've benefited greatly from the system, as did my siblings and parents, so I'm more than happy to pay taxes. Taxes: - Make sure the area I live in is clean, safe, accessible - Paid for my college, allowing me and my siblings to end up with a higher education and (in my case) earning more than my parents did. Social mobility, something my parents could not have afforded on their own. - Paid my dad when he lost his job - Paid my brother who never managed to land a job And of course if it wasn't for taxes / a functioning government, half my country would be underwater.
- SmartWa 7y agoJust an honest question: How do you think should we finance our society?
- exabrial 7y agoI think the correct answer is whomever will willingly pay for it. If we look at taxes through a framework of consent, I don't see another option.
- exabrial 7y agoI'm a little stunned by the HN comments. Taxes are non-consensual. I think that is all that needs to be said. If you want to pay them, that's your perogative but forcing anyone to do something under threat of jail or death cannot be justified.
- arthurcolle 7y agoMight be interesting if you could use something like a pooled earnings fund secured and collateralized by some kind of smart contract, thereby achieving sufficient economies of scale to allow for the "non-hyperrich" to get some of these tax savings. Someone should pitch this to the Mossack Fonseca guys.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- Frost1x 7y agoBased on that premise: Should we, as a society, permit a select few to shift their wealth to tax havens or should those folks also join in with everyone else? Are those sheltering their taxes more privileged that they deserve being able skirt the rules others can't, even if others would do so given the same circumstances?
- aww_dang 7y agoYes. We should allow free competition between tax jurisdictions. If another state is willing to provide better services in any regard, people should be free to decide what suits them best. What is the meaning of private property if individuals can not move it abroad as they wish? A more productive line of inquiry might be an examination of what tax authorities can do to make their schemes more palatable. Perhaps the experiment of liberalism (as suggested in the 18th century) has failed if government has reached the point where it is trying to optimize and maximize revenue. It seems that liberalism has arrived at the same place that inspired the guillotine and the Boston tea party. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laffer_curve https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laffer_curve
- 131012 7y agoI think this theory has been discredited as Reaganism propaganda. The fact that its wikipedia page does not account for criticism makes it even more dubious.
- aww_dang 7y agoMaybe you could flesh out the substance of your assertion? I fail to see why individuals and corporations would not pay if it were cheaper to comply than to evade taxes. Part of the expense of compliance is the staffing of lawyers and accountants. On the other end perhaps increased value could be added in the form of incentives for tax-payers. Resentment seems to be running high (rhetoric about the 1%) in regards to the guillotine observation. Similarly many are frustrated and looking for a way to escape tax obligations. More and more individuals are choosing to go through the inconvenience of renouncing their US citizenship. https://www.americanexpatfinance.com/news/item/131-u-s-finally-publishes-final-2018-renunciation-data https://www.americanexpatfinance.com/news/item/131-u-s-final... https://www.americanexpatfinance.com/images/Renunciations_2000_-2018_.jpg https://www.americanexpatfinance.com/images/Renunciations_20...
- thatfrenchguy 7y agoYup, that’s what we need to make it impossible. Don’t rely on people to act good, build a system that prevents them from acting bad.
- jaimex2 7y agoWe do. If you have a trade just charge cash in hand and post believable losses every tax return.
- CaptainZapp 7y agoDo I get that correctly and you're proposing tax evasion in all seriousness?
- disintegore 7y agoIt's only a crime when you do it
- jaimex2 7y agoNo, but its common knowledge that most tradesmen do this. Same with tax deducting 5 seater commercial 4x4 pickups as work expenses and using mostly for family and recreation.
- disintegore 7y agoThis is a good point, actually. Attributing the blame to an extreme minority of people (billionaires) is counter-productive. The problem is not their individual moral failings (however numerous) but the system that permits them to exist and incentivizes their parasitic and exploitative practices.
- Redoubts 7y agoThat extreme minority of people have a lot more power to influence the system than the common man. It makes one wonder how the system got to be the way it is in the first place.
- disintegore 7y agoI don't mean to diminish their effect on the world. What I'm saying is that if we take down Epstein and lapidate Bezos and whatnot, some other unscrupulous person will take their place.
- Red_Leaves_Flyy 7y agoThat's a bridge to cross when it's arrived at. As it is impossible to foresee every eventuality we can only deal with the problems at hand taking reasonable precautions in the process.
- excursionist 7y agoDon't forget that these people have tremendous amount of power and influence in politics and work hard to keep these loopholes open for themselves.
- davidwitt415 7y ago'The system that permits them' is far too passive a voice, because the rich have aggressively gamed the system and rigged it to their advantage. The IRS is badly outgunned by armies of accountants and lawyers playing shell games and at best exploiting quasi-legal loopholes, or committing outright fraud.
- 7y ago
- w457uiw4gftyi 7y agoThat few?
- buboard 7y agoIn many cases it’s possible and people should be aware of their options. The US however is pretty draconian with its taxing of in international income
- JacobDotVI 7y agoCase in point: New Yorkers moving to Florida and Californians moving to Nevada.
- rolltiide 7y agoMore than 40% when you remove their stigmas around discussing money topics, as it only perpetuates ignorance “Ah this person aware of the rules is playing by a more effective set of rules than we are, there are more of us so lets change the rules so our worse strategy is the only strategy, ah but we don't know which rules they are using!”
- odiroot 7y agoWish I could. I'm in no way rich (middle-class); don't own my flat or a car. I still pay ~42% taxes here in Germany. Middle class is seriously squeezed and we're not getting much back from government "services".
- deogeo 7y agoAnd more than 40% of all citizens would decline jail time if convicted of murder. You talk as if tragedy of the commons/prisoner's dilemma is something new and unknown.