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I love how Apple claim to care so much about the environment and then goes on to create basically the most unfixable pieces of hardware possible. Great job, re

I love how Apple claim to care so much about the environment and then goes on to create basically the most unfixable pieces of hardware possible. Great job, really awesome for the environment Apple.

nautical 7y ago
+ they will be charging absurd amount for small fixes that were possible to do on own. example RAM is soldered to the logic board!
- asaddhamani 7y ago
  Forget about the RAM. The SSD is also soldered to the logic board. That's ridiculous.
  - kmlx 7y ago
    isn't this for performance purposes?
    - _ph_ 7y ago
      There are perfectly fast m.2 modules, that would mean only minor differences in peformance, if any at all. My iMac actually runs perfectly fine on a SATA SSD, though this is definitely slower than the soldered-on SSD of my MB Pro.
    - jaytaylor 7y ago
      Soldering it down doesn't provide any quantifiable performance improvements. It probably allows them to make it smaller / thinner, and less expensive to manufacture. However, now if any one component (memory, CPU, SSD drive) goes bad the entire set must be tossed! When this happens, it will be expensive for the unlucky customer. All so Apple could avoid including a bit more plastic for the component sockets. Also, SSD drives have a limited number of write cyclew before they stop working, usually some 10's of TBW (terabytes written). For normal users, it will take them a very long time to wear out the drive. Conversely, developers and power user types may find their setups doing 50GB or more of writes per day. So for example, if a drive is rated for 75TBW, a power user could wear it out after only a couple of years. I have some Samsung SSDs at home where I regularly track and monitor the write usage, and I'm always surprised at how many writes occur on my [often idle] Windows machine. Background OS and application activity is my hypothesis for the cause. The primary windows partition drive will probably need replacing within a year, and will have lasted three or four years.
      - Slartie 7y ago
        I am one of those up to 100GB/day developers. Reason: handling huge codebases (Chromium, among others) and working with VMs, which also extensively increases the write volume. My top day saw multiple TB written on a single day. But even I don't seriously fear my MacBook pro SSD will die because of write load. I've done the math, and I should be good for way longer than the projected use of the laptop. My actual annoyance is the inability to upgrade. I would love to make use of the currently laughable prices for m.2 SSDs and upgrade the 1TB internal storage to 2TB or more. But I can't, thanks to soldered storage.
      - whywhywhywhy 7y ago
        > It probably allows them to make it smaller / thinner Surface X is 0.28 inches thick and has a door on the back for accessing the SSD. Apple could do better.
    - PedroBatista 7y ago
      Quarterly economic performance.
      - kmlx 7y ago
        perfectly valid answer :)
zapzupnz 7y ago
I don't understand this comment. So something is difficult to fix; how does this make the components any less recyclable, less free of harmful toxins? Apple has a fairly comprehensive recycling system, to strip their own systems apart and reclaim reusable components. Are you suggesting when people take their MacBooks to get replaced that Apple are just throwing them in a landfill or something?
- dna_polymerase 7y ago
  > I don't understand this comment. So something is difficult to fix; how does this make the components any less recyclable, less free of harmful toxins? The next best thing to recycling (from an environmental standpoint) is being able to repair and continue usage. However Apple's hardware becomes more and more unfix-able (actually impossible, because parts are basically tailored to a single device, thus there can't be secondary parts, and Apple doesn't provide them at all). Go down the rabbit hole yourself: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTpHa70DDX0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTpHa70DDX0
  - GrayShade 7y ago
    It's not the next best thing, it's the better thing. Reduce, reuse, recycle.
- Symbiote 7y ago
  Repairing a device by replacing a small part (preferably only the broken component) uses far less resources than recycling. For most other laptops, repair or replacement of common components doesn't depend so much on the manufacturer. The skill and equipment required to do the repair is significantly reduced. All else being equal, this makes it more likely that the laptop will be repaired rather than discarded.
  - w0utert 7y ago
    Not trying to be cynical here because I also would prefer a MBP that was more serviceable/repairable, but all these discussions about how repairability impacts the environmental cost of these devices are IMO extremely contrived. How many (in percentage terms) of laptops will ever need repairs, how many of those will actually be repaired (as opposed to consumers just deciding to buy something new, even if repair would be relatively easy and cheap), and then finally, what percentage of these defective laptops will actually been thrown away without any form of recycling? I'm pretty sure that if you do the math, in the grand scheme of things, these numbers will be utterly irrelevant except for HN talking points. I would recommend spending public outrage about environmental concerns on areas where it really matters instead, such as e.g. food waste, plastic bags, energy efficiency etc. I'm pretty sure that even a tiny, tiny fraction improvement there would offset the environmental impact of the worldwide total of laptops that cannot or will not be repaired after they break down.
kmlx 7y ago
i don't get it. what does one thing have to do with the other? i assume no-one's going to throw their macbook in the trashcan anytime soon, so i don't see the connection between the ability to repair the device and how bad that device is for the environment.
- _ph_ 7y ago
  After Apple care expires, many repairs are so expensive that you have to consider the MB totalled, that means, you are throwing away a device that should be repairable. A keyboard exchange should cost between $100 and $200, not in excess of $600.
  - kmlx 7y ago
    so basically the problem is offering cheaper repairs? that should be relatively easy to solve, no?
    - GrayShade 7y ago
      Repairs are going to be expensive if you need to get a new motherboard to replace a single component.
      - kmlx 7y ago
        it all depends on second hand mac component prices. from my knowledge apple changes the casing and motherboard for almost every mac hardware update. thus making components more expensive (lower runs) and the re-sell value high. so for apple to allow replacing parts the backlash from a reduced re-sell price would need to be lower than the potential new avenues of 3rd party components and repairs.
        GrayShade 7y ago
        > the backlash from a reduced re-sell price Users complaining that laptops are too easy to repair seems absurd to me but then again, I'm not an Apple customer.
simonh 7y ago
Only a tiny percentage of laptops are ever upgraded. If making the device upgradable and accessible adds the same percentage in materials then it's pretty much a wash. Also Apple devices on average have much longer service lives than devices from most other manufacturers. On average they stay usable longer, and even when they are replaced they're more likely to be handed on and keep in use even without upgradability. This is why they retain more of their second hand value. That factor alone is dramatically more significant from a whole lifecycle impact point of view.
- gregoriol 7y ago
  This is true, but increasing RAM or disk capacity over time could extend that even more. Maybe not so much visible right now with those machines that are sold today and look awesome, but I have a few examples of 2006/2009 MBPs that had hard drives being replaced with SSDs, and extended their lifetime many more years! In my today's 5-year-old MBP, I would enjoy doubling the RAM for example.
- _ph_ 7y ago
  Upgrading a laptop might increase its useful service life, but if bought well-specced, this isn't the biggest problem. The elephant in the room are repairs. Due to the design, too many repairs are not economic, so machines get thrown away early. Repairs, which should cost way less with a design that at least allows repairability.
  - Sangeppato 7y ago
    Exactly. When I had some sticky keys on a 2015 MacBook Pro, the Genius told me that the only way to fix that was to replace the whole top case and it wouldn't have been cheap. I just went home, searched a bit on YouTube, removed the keycaps and cleaned them. It's the same for batteries: they want you to replace the whole top case for a stupid battery that they could have made much easier to remove (it's still possible to do it BTW)
- mscasts 7y ago
  > Only a tiny percentage of laptops are ever upgraded. Probably yes and that is also probably because behaviors like this. Manufacturers have trained consumers for years that upgrading of fixing stuff is not worth it. Personally, I have upgraded every laptop I have ever owned. This isn't possible with todays Macbooks. > Also Apple devices on average have much longer service lives than devices from most other manufacturers Bullshit, if anything I believe the opposite is true. What is your source for this?
epanchin 7y ago
I’ve never known anyone to throw away a Mac. They get used until the temptation to upgrade becomes too big, then sold onto someone with different needs. I don’t have a Mac, and I think they should be more repairable, but I still think they’re ahead of most the rest.
- mscasts 7y ago
  Please stop with the apologetic fanboy rhethoric. It's not helping. I have thrown away several macbooks and I know several people that has too. I used to have Macbooks, I upgraded them with new disks and memory. Today that would not have been possible which is one big reason I would never buy a macbook to begin with. This behavior is bad for all consumers of their products and should not be defended with anecdotal stuff like "people don't throw away their macbooks" which is easily refuted by going to a garbage site.
  - sbuk 7y ago
    “Fanboy rhetoric”? How does this add to the conversation? Anecdotally (which is all your point boils down to) I know that businesses rarely upgrade machines. Home users rarely do either. Gamers and enthusiasts are the people that tend repair or upgrade. These people are a vanishingly small number. I have no problem with Apple, or anyone else, replacing broken or damaged items with new/refurbished ones, so long as they are responsible with the disposal or reuse of the damaged article. Apple demonstrably are. Apple offer free recycling[0] and it’s available in most countries, if not all. It is reasonably well publicised and easily searchable. If an individual chooses to dispose of a device in an inappropriate way, that’s on them, not the manufacturer of the device. [0] https://www.apple.com/uk/recycling/nationalservices/ https://www.apple.com/uk/recycling/nationalservices/
    - mscasts 7y ago
      The only reason I added an anecdote was because the entirety of your argument was anecdotal. How you can't see the irony here is beyond me. > I’ve never known anyone to throw away a Mac I'm just telling you that there are people who do that. What are your sources for that business don't upgrade machines? In my experience, business are often the kind of places that actually do upgrade their machines but of course not if it is macs since they cannot be upgraded. I have never said anything negative about their recycling program. But it still is more resource heavy and more polluting than simply continued use of a product when you upgrade parts.
rimliu 7y ago
Ok, you got a replaceable battery. Now when you replace it you not only have old battery but also the hard shell for that battery to throw out. The same goes for storage. You don't have soldered storage, you have cased SDD. How is this any better than Apples solution?
- GrayShade 7y ago
  You throw away (recycle) the old battery and recycle or repurpose the SSD and replace it. If they're soldered you need to replace everything. How is that not worse?
neuronic 7y ago
This comment is randomly bashing Apple for not acting ecologically while suggesting that alternatives are somehow better. Apple can and should be criticized for shitty environmental behavior when you can actually back up your claim. Not that there would be any proof in the comment, no. For example, how do Lenovo, Samsung or Dell handle this stuff and can you explain why their approaches produce less waste? Of course not, but let's put some hate into the HN comment section! A centrally managed maintenance process where Apple hardware is managed and its waste properly disposed off (recycling, proper sorting of waste, secure handling of toxic materials...) vs. risks like customers putting Li-Ion batteries into their home trash causing landfill fires. And throw the left-over SSDs and RAM right into the mix as well. No, it's just about hating on Apple without any evidence or data to back it up. Mimimi Apple ecologically bad but I won't tell you why or how others are evidently making it better!
- Craighead 7y ago
  Weird, because this comment comes off as randomly not understanding Apples anti consumer repair practices are the worst in the industry.
- quincunx 7y ago
  From the article: "we can't help but feel that Apple can do better—especially after seeing Microsoft perform some real engineering magic to make its latest laptops more repairable" Which leads to this link: https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Microsoft+Surface+Laptop+3+(15-inch)+Teardown/127277 https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Microsoft+Surface+Laptop+3+(...
- whywhywhywhy 7y ago
  > that alternatives are somehow better Microsoft just released Surface X with a door on the back for replacing the drive. The device is 0.28 inches thick. Thinkpad X1 Carbon and Dell XPS both have replaceable drives. From opening the case. If anything I'm struggling to find another laptop maker who solders the drives to the boards like Apple does... Drive failure isn't a possibility, it's a certainty and soldering them to the board creates a hard deadline when the laptop turns from a computer to a brick.
dkonofalski 7y ago
>the most unfixable pieces of hardware possible Except the huge part that you're missing is that, when they do a swap or a replacement at an Apple store, they don't just throw away the hardware. They send it back to be disassembled, tested, and remanufactured. They re-use a vast amount of these components and all of their warranty devices are remanufactured from good, tested components that were pieced out of larger components. Just because they don't do individual component repairs at the stores doesn't mean it's unfixable hardware.

I love how Apple claim to care so much about the environment and then goes on to create basically the most unfixable pieces of hardware possible. Great job, really awesome for the environment Apple.

nautical 7y ago

+ they will be charging absurd amount for small fixes that were possible to do on own. example RAM is soldered to the logic board!

asaddhamani 7y ago
Forget about the RAM. The SSD is also soldered to the logic board. That's ridiculous.
- kmlx 7y ago
  isn't this for performance purposes?
  - _ph_ 7y ago
    There are perfectly fast m.2 modules, that would mean only minor differences in peformance, if any at all. My iMac actually runs perfectly fine on a SATA SSD, though this is definitely slower than the soldered-on SSD of my MB Pro.
  - jaytaylor 7y ago
    Soldering it down doesn't provide any quantifiable performance improvements. It probably allows them to make it smaller / thinner, and less expensive to manufacture. However, now if any one component (memory, CPU, SSD drive) goes bad the entire set must be tossed! When this happens, it will be expensive for the unlucky customer. All so Apple could avoid including a bit more plastic for the component sockets. Also, SSD drives have a limited number of write cyclew before they stop working, usually some 10's of TBW (terabytes written). For normal users, it will take them a very long time to wear out the drive. Conversely, developers and power user types may find their setups doing 50GB or more of writes per day. So for example, if a drive is rated for 75TBW, a power user could wear it out after only a couple of years. I have some Samsung SSDs at home where I regularly track and monitor the write usage, and I'm always surprised at how many writes occur on my [often idle] Windows machine. Background OS and application activity is my hypothesis for the cause. The primary windows partition drive will probably need replacing within a year, and will have lasted three or four years.
    - Slartie 7y ago
      I am one of those up to 100GB/day developers. Reason: handling huge codebases (Chromium, among others) and working with VMs, which also extensively increases the write volume. My top day saw multiple TB written on a single day. But even I don't seriously fear my MacBook pro SSD will die because of write load. I've done the math, and I should be good for way longer than the projected use of the laptop. My actual annoyance is the inability to upgrade. I would love to make use of the currently laughable prices for m.2 SSDs and upgrade the 1TB internal storage to 2TB or more. But I can't, thanks to soldered storage.
    - whywhywhywhy 7y ago
      > It probably allows them to make it smaller / thinner Surface X is 0.28 inches thick and has a door on the back for accessing the SSD. Apple could do better.
  - PedroBatista 7y ago
    Quarterly economic performance.
    - kmlx 7y ago
      perfectly valid answer :)

zapzupnz 7y ago

I don't understand this comment. So something is difficult to fix; how does this make the components any less recyclable, less free of harmful toxins? Apple has a fairly comprehensive recycling system, to strip their own systems apart and reclaim reusable components. Are you suggesting when people take their MacBooks to get replaced that Apple are just throwing them in a landfill or something?

dna_polymerase 7y ago
> I don't understand this comment. So something is difficult to fix; how does this make the components any less recyclable, less free of harmful toxins? The next best thing to recycling (from an environmental standpoint) is being able to repair and continue usage. However Apple's hardware becomes more and more unfix-able (actually impossible, because parts are basically tailored to a single device, thus there can't be secondary parts, and Apple doesn't provide them at all). Go down the rabbit hole yourself: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTpHa70DDX0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTpHa70DDX0
- GrayShade 7y ago
  It's not the next best thing, it's the better thing. Reduce, reuse, recycle.
Symbiote 7y ago
Repairing a device by replacing a small part (preferably only the broken component) uses far less resources than recycling. For most other laptops, repair or replacement of common components doesn't depend so much on the manufacturer. The skill and equipment required to do the repair is significantly reduced. All else being equal, this makes it more likely that the laptop will be repaired rather than discarded.
- w0utert 7y ago
  Not trying to be cynical here because I also would prefer a MBP that was more serviceable/repairable, but all these discussions about how repairability impacts the environmental cost of these devices are IMO extremely contrived. How many (in percentage terms) of laptops will ever need repairs, how many of those will actually be repaired (as opposed to consumers just deciding to buy something new, even if repair would be relatively easy and cheap), and then finally, what percentage of these defective laptops will actually been thrown away without any form of recycling? I'm pretty sure that if you do the math, in the grand scheme of things, these numbers will be utterly irrelevant except for HN talking points. I would recommend spending public outrage about environmental concerns on areas where it really matters instead, such as e.g. food waste, plastic bags, energy efficiency etc. I'm pretty sure that even a tiny, tiny fraction improvement there would offset the environmental impact of the worldwide total of laptops that cannot or will not be repaired after they break down.

kmlx 7y ago

i don't get it. what does one thing have to do with the other? i assume no-one's going to throw their macbook in the trashcan anytime soon, so i don't see the connection between the ability to repair the device and how bad that device is for the environment.

_ph_ 7y ago
After Apple care expires, many repairs are so expensive that you have to consider the MB totalled, that means, you are throwing away a device that should be repairable. A keyboard exchange should cost between $100 and $200, not in excess of $600.
- kmlx 7y ago
  so basically the problem is offering cheaper repairs? that should be relatively easy to solve, no?
  - GrayShade 7y ago
    Repairs are going to be expensive if you need to get a new motherboard to replace a single component.
    - kmlx 7y ago
      it all depends on second hand mac component prices. from my knowledge apple changes the casing and motherboard for almost every mac hardware update. thus making components more expensive (lower runs) and the re-sell value high. so for apple to allow replacing parts the backlash from a reduced re-sell price would need to be lower than the potential new avenues of 3rd party components and repairs.
      - GrayShade 7y ago
        > the backlash from a reduced re-sell price Users complaining that laptops are too easy to repair seems absurd to me but then again, I'm not an Apple customer.

simonh 7y ago

Only a tiny percentage of laptops are ever upgraded. If making the device upgradable and accessible adds the same percentage in materials then it's pretty much a wash. Also Apple devices on average have much longer service lives than devices from most other manufacturers. On average they stay usable longer, and even when they are replaced they're more likely to be handed on and keep in use even without upgradability. This is why they retain more of their second hand value. That factor alone is dramatically more significant from a whole lifecycle impact point of view.

gregoriol 7y ago
This is true, but increasing RAM or disk capacity over time could extend that even more. Maybe not so much visible right now with those machines that are sold today and look awesome, but I have a few examples of 2006/2009 MBPs that had hard drives being replaced with SSDs, and extended their lifetime many more years! In my today's 5-year-old MBP, I would enjoy doubling the RAM for example.
_ph_ 7y ago
Upgrading a laptop might increase its useful service life, but if bought well-specced, this isn't the biggest problem. The elephant in the room are repairs. Due to the design, too many repairs are not economic, so machines get thrown away early. Repairs, which should cost way less with a design that at least allows repairability.
- Sangeppato 7y ago
  Exactly. When I had some sticky keys on a 2015 MacBook Pro, the Genius told me that the only way to fix that was to replace the whole top case and it wouldn't have been cheap. I just went home, searched a bit on YouTube, removed the keycaps and cleaned them. It's the same for batteries: they want you to replace the whole top case for a stupid battery that they could have made much easier to remove (it's still possible to do it BTW)
mscasts 7y ago
> Only a tiny percentage of laptops are ever upgraded. Probably yes and that is also probably because behaviors like this. Manufacturers have trained consumers for years that upgrading of fixing stuff is not worth it. Personally, I have upgraded every laptop I have ever owned. This isn't possible with todays Macbooks. > Also Apple devices on average have much longer service lives than devices from most other manufacturers Bullshit, if anything I believe the opposite is true. What is your source for this?

epanchin 7y ago

I’ve never known anyone to throw away a Mac. They get used until the temptation to upgrade becomes too big, then sold onto someone with different needs. I don’t have a Mac, and I think they should be more repairable, but I still think they’re ahead of most the rest.

mscasts 7y ago
Please stop with the apologetic fanboy rhethoric. It's not helping. I have thrown away several macbooks and I know several people that has too. I used to have Macbooks, I upgraded them with new disks and memory. Today that would not have been possible which is one big reason I would never buy a macbook to begin with. This behavior is bad for all consumers of their products and should not be defended with anecdotal stuff like "people don't throw away their macbooks" which is easily refuted by going to a garbage site.
- sbuk 7y ago
  “Fanboy rhetoric”? How does this add to the conversation? Anecdotally (which is all your point boils down to) I know that businesses rarely upgrade machines. Home users rarely do either. Gamers and enthusiasts are the people that tend repair or upgrade. These people are a vanishingly small number. I have no problem with Apple, or anyone else, replacing broken or damaged items with new/refurbished ones, so long as they are responsible with the disposal or reuse of the damaged article. Apple demonstrably are. Apple offer free recycling[0] and it’s available in most countries, if not all. It is reasonably well publicised and easily searchable. If an individual chooses to dispose of a device in an inappropriate way, that’s on them, not the manufacturer of the device. [0] https://www.apple.com/uk/recycling/nationalservices/ https://www.apple.com/uk/recycling/nationalservices/
  - mscasts 7y ago
    The only reason I added an anecdote was because the entirety of your argument was anecdotal. How you can't see the irony here is beyond me. > I’ve never known anyone to throw away a Mac I'm just telling you that there are people who do that. What are your sources for that business don't upgrade machines? In my experience, business are often the kind of places that actually do upgrade their machines but of course not if it is macs since they cannot be upgraded. I have never said anything negative about their recycling program. But it still is more resource heavy and more polluting than simply continued use of a product when you upgrade parts.

rimliu 7y ago

Ok, you got a replaceable battery. Now when you replace it you not only have old battery but also the hard shell for that battery to throw out. The same goes for storage. You don't have soldered storage, you have cased SDD. How is this any better than Apples solution?

GrayShade 7y ago
You throw away (recycle) the old battery and recycle or repurpose the SSD and replace it. If they're soldered you need to replace everything. How is that not worse?

neuronic 7y ago

This comment is randomly bashing Apple for not acting ecologically while suggesting that alternatives are somehow better. Apple can and should be criticized for shitty environmental behavior when you can actually back up your claim. Not that there would be any proof in the comment, no. For example, how do Lenovo, Samsung or Dell handle this stuff and can you explain why their approaches produce less waste? Of course not, but let's put some hate into the HN comment section! A centrally managed maintenance process where Apple hardware is managed and its waste properly disposed off (recycling, proper sorting of waste, secure handling of toxic materials...) vs. risks like customers putting Li-Ion batteries into their home trash causing landfill fires. And throw the left-over SSDs and RAM right into the mix as well. No, it's just about hating on Apple without any evidence or data to back it up. Mimimi Apple ecologically bad but I won't tell you why or how others are evidently making it better!

Craighead 7y ago
Weird, because this comment comes off as randomly not understanding Apples anti consumer repair practices are the worst in the industry.
quincunx 7y ago
From the article: "we can't help but feel that Apple can do better—especially after seeing Microsoft perform some real engineering magic to make its latest laptops more repairable" Which leads to this link: https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Microsoft+Surface+Laptop+3+(15-inch)+Teardown/127277 https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Microsoft+Surface+Laptop+3+(...
whywhywhywhy 7y ago
> that alternatives are somehow better Microsoft just released Surface X with a door on the back for replacing the drive. The device is 0.28 inches thick. Thinkpad X1 Carbon and Dell XPS both have replaceable drives. From opening the case. If anything I'm struggling to find another laptop maker who solders the drives to the boards like Apple does... Drive failure isn't a possibility, it's a certainty and soldering them to the board creates a hard deadline when the laptop turns from a computer to a brick.

dkonofalski 7y ago

>the most unfixable pieces of hardware possible Except the huge part that you're missing is that, when they do a swap or a replacement at an Apple store, they don't just throw away the hardware. They send it back to be disassembled, tested, and remanufactured. They re-use a vast amount of these components and all of their warranty devices are remanufactured from good, tested components that were pieced out of larger components. Just because they don't do individual component repairs at the stores doesn't mean it's unfixable hardware.