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Because the social contract of most countries is that your legally gained cash is to be taxed in one form or another and thus has to be known by the tax authori
by karambahh 7y ago
Because the social contract of most countries is that your legally gained cash is to be taxed in one form or another and thus has to be known by the tax authorities?
You can argue that your assets are to be private to the general public but some countries do not have that assumption
(Norway comes to mind).
- woah 7y agoIt was possible for many empires to tax effectively before modern bookkeeping. Property tax needs very little in the way of financial records to administer.
- fao_ 7y ago> modern book-keeping Can you clarify what precisely you mean by this statement? Most empires historically-speaking have had sophisticated book-keeping methods. Chinese empires used to tax anyone who exited a city on the profits they made during their visit. The Romans when they took over Egypt, taxed the hell out of it and for that purpose kept meticulous records on all of the transactions that happened. The notion of Tax itself goes back to Mesopotamia. (I wrote that based from history books I've read over the years. But this link will do: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_accounting#Ancient_history https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_accounting#Ancient_...)
- woofcat 7y agoNot who you replied to, however modern taxation requires lots of information to work. For instance income tax works, because every employer is reporting how much they paid you. Then you report how much money you got paid, then factor in deductions such as specific contributions to charities etc. All of which are reporting to the Government at the same time. Before the advent of computing and auditing it would be hard to tell if a blacksmith sold 50 or 55 swords. So income tax wasn't viable and instead taxation on lands were more common.
- aianus 7y agoHK raises practically all of its revenue from land and (until China started screwing it up) it was one of the richest, most developed places on Earth.
- boomboomsubban 7y ago>HK raises practically all of its revenue from land I don't know what you mean. Hong Kong is a trading port, and any wealth it "creates" is done by refining imported materials. This option is only available someplace lots of trade naturally occurs, like Hong Kong's river basin.
- aianus 7y agoI mean the government raises its tax revenue almost exclusively by leasing land and taxing real estate transactions instead of taxing income like we do in the West.
- boomboomsubban 7y agoThis system isn't very exportable, I can't imagine the nationalization of land being a popular move no matter how low you promised to make income tax.
- woofcat 7y agoOkay and? My point is that to collect property tax it's easier for the Government and Income tax is harder for the Government. It requires more reporting... It has nothing to do with the value extracted.
- aianus 7y agoMy point is you don't need income tax at all to maintain a developed society as demonstrated in HK, Washington State, etc.
- dredmorbius 7y agoThe general principle of a tax which can be levied fairly, equally, clearly, and with low costs of collection or effort, are not new: The tax which each individual is bound to pay ought to be certain, and not arbitrary. The time of payment, the manner of payment, the quantity to be paid, ought all to be clear and plain to the contributor, and to every other person. Where it is otherwise, every person subject to the tax is put more or less in the power of the tax-gathered, who can either aggravate the tax upon any obnoxious contributor, or extort, by the terror of such aggravation, some present or perquisite to himself. The uncertainty of taxation encourages the insolence and favours the corruption of an order of men who are naturally unpopular, even where they are neither insolent nor corrupt. The certainty of what each individual ought to pay is, in taxation, a matter of so great importance that a very considerable degree of inequality, it appears, I believe, from the experience of all nations, is not near so great an evil as a very small degree of uncertainty. -- Adam Smith, Wealth of Nations, Book V, Chapter 2, Part 2: Of Taxes. https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Wealth_of_Nations/Book_V/Chapter_2 https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Wealth_of_Nations/Book_V/... Smith's preference was for a tax on land, which is difficult to move off-shore.
- squiggleblaz 7y ago> Smith's preference was for a tax on land, which is difficult to move off-shore. I like the idea of land tax, but I like that statement even more. (Land tax, on paper, seems like it would be such a good idea, and transaction taxes are nowadays so invasive, that it's incomprehensible to me why we don't have them.)
- dredmorbius 7y agoThanks. It just came to me :)
- vintermann 7y agoAbout arbitrary taxation, I understand that's how they handled it in ancient Athens. Some nobody would say something like "It's been a while since we taxed the Alcmaenids, I propose they pay for the next Panathanea festival". Since that state was radically democratic, it may not have had the corrupting influence on the taxers as Smith suggests... but maybe it was a factor in the aristocrats allying with their rival Sparta to topple their own constitution.
- sukilot 7y agoWhat if I choose not to spend my wealth on property?
- squiggleblaz 7y agoIf the only tax in a jurisdiction is an income tax and you choose to make your money through capital gains, you don't pay tax. If the only tax in a jurisdiction is a land tax and you don't own land, you don't pay tax. This will either be because you ideologically are opposed to paying taxes and you're willing to pay more in foregone profits/opportunity cost, or because there's better more profitable investments elsewhere in the marketplace, in which case land values will grow more slowly till an equilibrium is reached. But since most transacations are tied to land somehow (because the good was imported at the port, transported by trucks that are stored in a truckyard, and sold to you by a person who lives in a house using mobile phones that connect to transmitter towers) so you won't be engaging in some kind of pure untaxed marketplace. It'll probably create a stockmarket bubble though. Best to tax shares as well as land.
- bouncycastle 7y agoBy "legally gained cash" I mean that taxes have already been paid for it.
- benmw333 7y agobecause "You didn't build that!"
- jobigoud 7y agoIt's a trust but verify thing I believe. If the cash is anonymized, how can they know if the owner of this cash did in fact pay their taxes on it? Either they blindly trust everyone to properly declare all of their income, or they need to have some form of traceability.
- Aeolun 7y agoOnce the cash is in the bank it becomes really hard to verify. It’s not like a ‘tax paid’ marker is added to every dollar in your account.
- ta999999171 7y agoNor could it, with the millions of rounds of taxes an average paper dollars will see.
- Scoundreller 7y ago> Nor could it, with the millions of rounds of taxes an average paper dollars will see. Somebody said a computer can't do something, somebody prove them wrong!
- TeMPOraL 7y agoIf you want to make money stop being fungible, well, you probably could use computers for that. But is it a wise idea?
- 7y ago
- Ericson2314 7y agoMoney is inherently social, I don't buy this argument.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- gumby 7y agoBut apart from the tax authorities need anyone else know?
- simonh 7y agoFor most people no, which is why people’s tax records for example are generally not available to the public.