16 ms·

Hand and Wrist Exercises for Computer Users

160 points by tacon 7y ago

qzx_pierri 7y ago
Hand exercises seem like something a person would only do AFTER they already suffer from chronic hand pain. Does anyone ever actually think to do this before using their computer?
- eska 7y ago
  I started to learn vim when I was 20 because I was made aware of these issues. Recently I bought a keyboard without a numpad block in order to position the keyboard in front of me without the mouse being too far away. Recently two of my coworkers are suffering from these issues, one even had to go to therapy and missed a couple weeks of work in total. Luckily he seems to be fine now, but he doesn't seem to have changed his habits.. I think spreading awareness helps and is something that senior developers should do for their juniors.
  - rexpop 7y ago
    Spreading awareness is something that management should do for their employees, but won't because we're expendable.
    - BubRoss 7y ago
      Seems like a rash generalization instead of taking responsibility and confronting the problem yourself. Ergonomics is something that seems like a mystery to almost everyone. People might pretend they have it figured because testing claims is so difficult. I have been at companies that cared about ergonomics and would buy split keyboards, standing desks and more if people requested them. You can't expect other people to solve problems that most are barely aware of.
      - glennpratt 7y ago
        I couldn't disagree more about companies being unaware. I've seen more then one smart, physically fit developer have to pull back or be reassigned from development entirely. This is a direct loss for my employer, especially when hiring is so difficult. It's bewildering to me that it's not taken more seriously. Though I agree it's not expendability. Edit to clarify.
        BubRoss 7y ago
        I wasn't saying companies are unaware of the problem, I'm saying they don't realize that they aren't doing enough. I would say that it isn't at all clear what the solutions really are. Vertical mice, elbow wrests, an expensive chair, etc, might help, but I don't think this is something that is really figured out, let alone mainstream knowledge.
      - rexpop 7y ago
        > taking responsibility and confronting the problem yourself. > You can't expect other people to solve problems that most are barely aware of. You contradict yourself. I am software engineer. I have specialized in my field. The firm that employs me employs many experts across many fields. That they choose not to hire an ergonomics expert to provide us with an ergonomic workplace is a testament to their will, and priorities. Should I cut my own hair, fix my own car, build my own house, sew my own clothes, and prescribe me own medicine?
        BubRoss 7y ago
        You could expect an ergonomics 'expert' to come in but I don't think that will solve your problem. If the company calls someone in and they accomplish nothing, the company will have tried to do something, relinquished their liability and probably not have any more ideas even if they wanted to do more. If that doesn't work, then what? Do you want your problem solved or do you just want to be at a company that takes a shot in the dark? You can probably find a company that will do that for you, there are plenty out there. If you want to actually solve your problem though, you are going to have to confront it yourself from as many angles as possible. The first step is realizing there is a lot of trial and error and that few people really know what they are talking about. I've seen 'ergonomics' experts before, they will say to sit up straight and look forward. They don't have deep knowledge built up from trial and error with a understanding of underlying principles, they just have a certificate that gets the company off the hook. As for your clothes, if no one makes clothes that fit you, then yes, maybe you should learn to sew.
    - maaaats 7y ago
      Huh, my company is basically throwing ergonomic things at us if we ask for them (chairs, standing desks, keyboards etc), as they know the cost is minuscule compared to us even being only a single day away from work.
      - rexpop 7y ago
        And the impact is minuscule compared to our lifetimes chained to the desk.
    - Symbiote 7y ago
      Here in Denmark, it seems pretty much standard that office workers have an adjustable height desk. We also have an "ergonomicist" visit occasionally and check everyone has appropriate equipment, is using it correctly, and knows how to adjust it.
- Barrin92 7y ago
  >Does anyone ever actually think to do this before using their computer? I do it on occasion and I never had hand problems but that's probably because I used to play classical guitar pretty seriously when I was younger and my teacher always made me do some exercises before. If I hadn't gotten in the habit I probably wouldn't.
- Tade0 7y ago
  Yes. I was inadvertently doing them while I was practicing guitar. That being said I don't recommend grip strength exercises using tools. It's too easy to overwork yourself that way.
doopfoopdoop 7y ago
Stupid anecdotal evidence here, but my experience with wrist/hand pain from computer use is that it's largely addressed by being strong. During my senior year of college, I had a lot hand pain and I also didn't go to the gym that year. Now, I type more than I ever have, but I'm also deadlifting over 500 lbs x 5 and I don't get any pain at all. (Dead)lifting is a remarkably good panacea. Back pain, mental blocks, anxiety. Fixes a lot of shit. If you're not lifting heavy, you should be. [0] is a good place to get started. The article mentions those grip strengtheners in (general) support of this--but the deadlift already does this (i.e., train grip) and a lot more. [0] https://aasgaardco.com/store/books-posters-dvd/books/starting-strength-basic-barbell-training/ https://aasgaardco.com/store/books-posters-dvd/books/startin...
- mirimir 7y ago
  I totally agree about the importance of being strong. But I don't think that dead lifts are the only way to get strong enough. You need the upper body strength to avoid supporting yourself on your wrists. They should just "float". Having good forearm support helps, but it's not enough if you're weak. And core strength helps prevent back pain. Along with a chair that helps you sit up straight, and provides lumbar support. Wrist curls and reverse wrist curls have also helped me a lot, for both wrists and elbows. I also use self-practice wrist locks for strengthening and stretching. Or with a rubber torsion rod.
  - doopfoopdoop 7y ago
    > But I don't think that dead lifts are the only way to get strong enough. I think the key to getting strong is barbell exercises, because they can be precisely and incrementally loaded. (So you linearly progress.) > And core strength helps prevent back pain. Deadlifts, squats, and presses are all extremely good at developing "core" strength. Ab-specific exercises are not (they cannot be effectively loaded, and the loads are much smaller, and the spinal flexion/extension involved often aggravate existing back injury). > chair that helps you sit up straight, and provides lumbar support. If the chair is helping you, then you are not using your muscles and will continue to atrophy away. Lumbar support in general is not a good thing.
hinkley 7y ago
No shoulder exercises. They mention two conditions that are clearly shoulder problems and offer no exercises. Do some research on stretches for the pectoral is minor muscles. People who type almost universally have a rolled shoulder that can cause back and arm pain. This is caused by tight pec minors. https://www.bemyhealer.com/2016/03/22/3-reasons-pectoralis-minor-muscle-upper-body-pain/ https://www.bemyhealer.com/2016/03/22/3-reasons-pectoralis-m... is a reasonable place to start.
- ebg13 7y ago
  Agreed. In personal anecdotal experience, every single problem that I ever felt in my hands and wrists was actually caused by my neck and shoulders and went away with improved shoulder/trapezius strength and neck posture.
dceddia 7y ago
Switching to a Kinesis keyboard has helped my hand/wrist pain quite a bit. It seemed to be steadily getting worse, and disappeared after using the keyboard for a couple weeks. Another thing that helped is the book Conquering Carpal Tunnel Syndrome[0]. It has a good set of stretches to do categorized by what's bothering you. Even more impactful IMO, it teaches a technique they call the "stretch point": very gently & slowly stretching until you feel the first hint of a stretch, then pausing and waiting for the feeling to release, over and over. Versus what I was naturally doing before, which was to stretch until I really felt it, and hold for a while. The theory is that the slow/gentle stretch+release pattern is more effective for the smaller muscles and less likely to damage them. [0]: https://www.amazon.com/Conquering-Carpal-Syndrome-Repetitive-Injuries/dp/1572240393 https://www.amazon.com/Conquering-Carpal-Syndrome-Repetitive...
troydavis 7y ago
If you're into prevention, get an ergo-aware keyboard and mouse if you feel any discomfort at all. The starting points - and for many people, perfection - are a split keyboard (like https://kinesis-ergo.com/shop/freestyle2-for-pc-us/ https://kinesis-ergo.com/shop/freestyle2-for-pc-us/), ideally with the center elevated ("tented"), and a vertical mouse (like https://evoluent.com/products/vm4r/ https://evoluent.com/products/vm4r/). They have almost no learning curve. Kinesis has a 60-day money-back guarantee. These products should leave your wrists and hands at the same angles as when they hang at your side. Let your arms dangle freely, bend your elbows, and type/mouse.
- city41 7y ago
  I did both as a preventative measure about 2 years ago and am very glad I did. Extra bonus is the Kinesis Advantage2 is absolutely excellent to type on once you adjust to it.
- maaaats 7y ago
  I use a roller mouse, a bar below the keyboard. Feel it's even better than an ergonomic-but-standard-mouse, as I don't have to move my arm to the side. Fixed my stupid elbow.
- toyg 7y ago
  If you can get over the "gaming" look (lights can be disabled), the best keyboard from kinesis is their Freestyle Edge: https://gaming.kinesis-ergo.com/edge/ https://gaming.kinesis-ergo.com/edge/ As well as all the ergo goodness, you can reprogram it to an inch of its life. I have the first generation, use it with a Mac and a Colemak layout, and it's da bomb.
BubRoss 7y ago
Ergonomics is something that seems to be advancing very slowly. My current thinking is that split keyboards are important, having your hands low is important, having the keyboard tilted down is important, exercising entire muscle groups from back muscles to shoulders to forearms is important and making sure you have multiple good positions to adjust to is important. I think conventional wisdom is so far off the mark it will be laughable in 50 years. Look how twisted you have to place your hands to use a regular keyboard. You lift them up, tilt them up, tilt them to the side etc. Using a typical computer set up is basically putting yourself is a stress position. I want to have multiple, very different positions I can be in. Being able to lie down on a bean bag and use a tablet for some things would be even better.
- Someone 7y ago
  ”You lift them up“ I don’t remember ever seeing that as ergonomic advice. Most, if not all, ergonomic advice says something along the lines of (https://www.webmd.com/back-pain/typing-posture-pain-prevention https://www.webmd.com/back-pain/typing-posture-pain-preventi...): ”Type at the right height. A lot of people place their keyboard directly on their desk, so it's just below chest level. But typing at that height for a long time limits circulation and stresses the joints and nerves in your arms, shoulders, and wrists. That can cause numbness and pain in those areas, as well as your back. It can even lead to long-term problems like carpal tunnel syndrome. The fix: If it's possible, use a keyboard tray that's placed beneath your desktop. Your keyboard should be slightly below your elbows.”
  - BubRoss 7y ago
    For typing, that link is saying something similar to what I was saying. Most people don't do this and I'm not sure if is a common recommendation. I haven't ever seen a lowered keyboard tray despite having seen thousands of workstations.
marmot777 7y ago
Good stuff.
lightedman 7y ago
Practically everything mentioned in the article can be handled by a Dynaflex Powerball, which is what I used after having carpal tunnel surgery on my right wrist. Full ROM achieved and I can hang off a cliff face with that hand like nobody's business (and do when obtaining rock specimens.)
edoo 7y ago
Get a gyro exercise ball. They are crazy fun and 5 minutes of use clears up an entire day worth of typing stiffness. They can be used to strengthen any part of the arm including the shoulder.
- hombre_fatal 7y ago
  My friend and I would compete over who could get the highest score on the LCD display. Unfortunately it seems that wear over time slows it down. No matter how much stronger and experienced I get, I cannot beat the score I hit on day 2 on the same ball weeks and months later.
  - edoo 7y ago
    I've owned many and there is nothing like a new one. The bearings always seem to wear down or get dirty. They make precision machined metal ones for super enthusiasts but I haven't tried those.
swader999 7y ago
Trigger point pressure on the scalenes for the win. Try it right now: https://youtu.be/HpJw0h72BlM https://youtu.be/HpJw0h72BlM
JBiserkov 7y ago
Exercise is very important. So is prevention. Learn and use Dvorak. Get an ergonomic keyboard. Non-affiliate links, ordered by increasing price. I have the 4000 and the Sculpt ergonomic for more than 5 years each. I've just started using the Ergodox. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000A6PPOK/ https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000A6PPOK/ https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00CYX26BC/ https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00CYX26BC/ https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00CYX54C0/ https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00CYX54C0/ https://ergodox-ez.com/ https://ergodox-ez.com/
- Symbiote 7y ago
  I've used Dvorak for over 15 years, but last month I was looking for a replacement for wearing-out Microsoft Natural 4000s, used at work and at home. The Kinesis Freestyle Edge [1] looked like a great option, but then I found myself swept into the rabbithole of custom mechanical keyboards. There is a frankly overwhelming number of decisions to make: split or not, with or without function/number/numpad/navigation keys, the usual row-staggered layout or column-staggered or a square grid, then the type of mechanical switch. Finally, there are the 3D-printed split keyboards meant to fit the shape of the hands. I ended up buying a Ergodash [2] kit [3] and soldering it myself. I've had it for less than a week so far, and though adapting to the column-staggered layout was reasonably quick, I'm still a bit hit-and-miss with pressing modifier keys with my thumb. I'm not yet ready to give it a proper review. Using a split keyboard has shown me I have a pretty poor keyboarding posture. Even with the traditional MS Natural ergonomic keyboard, I was twisting my right wrist because the keyboard is still narrower than my shoulders. Xah Lee's site has a good, quick overview of many of the most popular DIY[4] and manufactured[5] options. [1] https://gaming.kinesis-ergo.com/edge/ https://gaming.kinesis-ergo.com/edge/ [2] https://github.com/omkbd/ErgoDash https://github.com/omkbd/ErgoDash [3] I bought the Ergodash kit from Germany from https://keycapsss.com/ https://keycapsss.com/ , it's also available as a kit or assembled from Poland at https://falba.tech/ https://falba.tech/ [4] http://xahlee.info/kbd/diy_keyboards_index.html http://xahlee.info/kbd/diy_keyboards_index.html [5] http://xahlee.info/kbd/ergonomic_keyboards_index.html http://xahlee.info/kbd/ergonomic_keyboards_index.html
wodenokoto 7y ago
I have been using the wrist exercises [1] in Reddits r/bodyweight recommended routine [2]. I gotta admit that my wrists starts acting up when I don't do them for a while. I prefer them to most of what is recommended in TFA. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSZWSQSSEjE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSZWSQSSEjE [2] https://www.reddit.com/r/bodyweightfitness/wiki/kb/recommended_routine https://www.reddit.com/r/bodyweightfitness/wiki/kb/recommend...
- LegitShady 7y ago
  He has wrist pronation/supination that the list in OP doesn't seem to do.
dugmartin 7y ago
I was introduced to a several great wrist exercises by a fellow student at my TKD school that has advanced degrees in several martial arts and is also an occupational therapist. I have an issue with my right wrist caused by falling backwards and catching myself while playing basketball in highschool 30+ years ago. The exercise that helps the most is to hold my right arm out at full (almost hyperextended) length with the palm facing me and then placing my left hand behind my right and grabbing my right thumb while wrapping my left fingers around the bottom of my right palm. I then use my left arm to put greater and greater pressure on my right wrist. I then do the same to the left wrist. Doing that a couple of times a day while programming seems to "open up" my wrist. YMMV.
- lcall 7y ago
  Why downvoted? While as they said, YMMV. I also have had pain over time in my right hand/wrist (started around the same time as a minor bicycling accident), that was somewhat improved from exercises I accumulated by various reading, coworker suggestions, and wrist brace (the 2 doctors I did se didn't seem to actually help much except making a couple of suggestions), I also benefited from seeing a good physical therapist who recommended the best exercises I have found so far (for me, that is -- I get the idea that situations differ enough that individual evaluation might be best. Actually, I also saw a chiropracter and we discussed, confirming some things I was already doing, but a licensed massage therapist did something to it that made the pain go away for almost 2 solid weeks: I wish I knew of a person to do the same thing, who lives much closer to me, and I might look more for one again as time permits.
adrianscott 7y ago
Read John Sarno's work, also David Schechter's.
- kpU8efre7r 7y ago
  That Healing Back Pain book helped a lot of my wrist/back pain as well as my partner's back pain.
askvictor 7y ago
My physio's theory is that a heap of pain he treats (mostly back pain, but can extrapolate anywhere) is stress related (essentially psychosomatic); less about being under stress, more about not having an outlet for that stress. He says that Italians don't get back pain as they're always shouting at each other. Funny thing is the stress manifests itself in real physical problems, but mostly treating the physical problem will cause the symptom to move somewhere else. Was definitely the case for me (2 months after starting a new job, under high stress, had crippling should pain; worked itself out once I got the ropes and relaxed into it; obviously this is only an anecdote). His joking 'cure' is to go punch your boss in the face. More seriously, read some Dr John Sarno.
marpstar 7y ago
For the past few years I've had a lot of tension in my forearm muscles in my dominant arm. Causes for me include mouse usage, guitar strumming, and lifting heavy. I've tried stretches like these, arm roller/massagers, self-massaging techniques. While these have helped a bit, nothing has been as effective as these $10 straps[1]. When I'm having a "bad arm day", I throw one of these straps on for an hour or two and it really helps to take away the tension (and therefore most discomfort I've experienced). [1]: https://www.amazon.com/Tendonitis-Compression-Prevent-Fishing-Adjustable/dp/B07QNPMHKW/ https://www.amazon.com/Tendonitis-Compression-Prevent-Fishin...
- LegitShady 7y ago
  I had the same thing with forearms. What you're experiencing is tendonitis commonly known as tennis elbow. Those straps relieve stress but they dont help heal. overuse will weaken your muscles. In my case I spent some time studying the muscles of the forearm and analyzing my pain and movements. A TENS machine (cheap on amazon) targeting that muscle for 15 minutes helps a lot to make the muscle relax. One major stretch missing in this list is active (using your other hand to push past where you can move it normally) wrist pronation/supination. In my case the shortened muscle was the flexor carpi ulnaris (which operates your pinky and wrist deviation). when it was overused it presented as tennis elbow and wrist pain on the ulnar side of the wrist. When i do active wrist pronation/supination I can feel the stretch at the ulnar side of the wrist and at the lateral epicondyle, exactly where the pain used to be. By stretching my wrist daily, including active wrist pronation/supination stretches, and once it had better range of movement starting on light exercise with resistance bands, everything is back to normal. But try and figure out where your problem is exactly. your forearm and wrists are complicated and not just one muscle.
lcall 7y ago
Some other recent discussions (not comprehensive): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12931885 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12931885 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12986759 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12986759 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15182304 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15182304

160 points by tacon 7y ago

Hand exercises seem like something a person would only do AFTER they already suffer from chronic hand pain. Does anyone ever actually think to do this before using their computer?

eska 7y ago
I started to learn vim when I was 20 because I was made aware of these issues. Recently I bought a keyboard without a numpad block in order to position the keyboard in front of me without the mouse being too far away. Recently two of my coworkers are suffering from these issues, one even had to go to therapy and missed a couple weeks of work in total. Luckily he seems to be fine now, but he doesn't seem to have changed his habits.. I think spreading awareness helps and is something that senior developers should do for their juniors.
- rexpop 7y ago
  Spreading awareness is something that management should do for their employees, but won't because we're expendable.
  - BubRoss 7y ago
    Seems like a rash generalization instead of taking responsibility and confronting the problem yourself. Ergonomics is something that seems like a mystery to almost everyone. People might pretend they have it figured because testing claims is so difficult. I have been at companies that cared about ergonomics and would buy split keyboards, standing desks and more if people requested them. You can't expect other people to solve problems that most are barely aware of.
    - glennpratt 7y ago
      I couldn't disagree more about companies being unaware. I've seen more then one smart, physically fit developer have to pull back or be reassigned from development entirely. This is a direct loss for my employer, especially when hiring is so difficult. It's bewildering to me that it's not taken more seriously. Though I agree it's not expendability. Edit to clarify.
      - BubRoss 7y ago
        I wasn't saying companies are unaware of the problem, I'm saying they don't realize that they aren't doing enough. I would say that it isn't at all clear what the solutions really are. Vertical mice, elbow wrests, an expensive chair, etc, might help, but I don't think this is something that is really figured out, let alone mainstream knowledge.
    - rexpop 7y ago
      > taking responsibility and confronting the problem yourself. > You can't expect other people to solve problems that most are barely aware of. You contradict yourself. I am software engineer. I have specialized in my field. The firm that employs me employs many experts across many fields. That they choose not to hire an ergonomics expert to provide us with an ergonomic workplace is a testament to their will, and priorities. Should I cut my own hair, fix my own car, build my own house, sew my own clothes, and prescribe me own medicine?
      - BubRoss 7y ago
        You could expect an ergonomics 'expert' to come in but I don't think that will solve your problem. If the company calls someone in and they accomplish nothing, the company will have tried to do something, relinquished their liability and probably not have any more ideas even if they wanted to do more. If that doesn't work, then what? Do you want your problem solved or do you just want to be at a company that takes a shot in the dark? You can probably find a company that will do that for you, there are plenty out there. If you want to actually solve your problem though, you are going to have to confront it yourself from as many angles as possible. The first step is realizing there is a lot of trial and error and that few people really know what they are talking about. I've seen 'ergonomics' experts before, they will say to sit up straight and look forward. They don't have deep knowledge built up from trial and error with a understanding of underlying principles, they just have a certificate that gets the company off the hook. As for your clothes, if no one makes clothes that fit you, then yes, maybe you should learn to sew.
  - maaaats 7y ago
    Huh, my company is basically throwing ergonomic things at us if we ask for them (chairs, standing desks, keyboards etc), as they know the cost is minuscule compared to us even being only a single day away from work.
    - rexpop 7y ago
      And the impact is minuscule compared to our lifetimes chained to the desk.
  - Symbiote 7y ago
    Here in Denmark, it seems pretty much standard that office workers have an adjustable height desk. We also have an "ergonomicist" visit occasionally and check everyone has appropriate equipment, is using it correctly, and knows how to adjust it.
Barrin92 7y ago
>Does anyone ever actually think to do this before using their computer? I do it on occasion and I never had hand problems but that's probably because I used to play classical guitar pretty seriously when I was younger and my teacher always made me do some exercises before. If I hadn't gotten in the habit I probably wouldn't.
Tade0 7y ago
Yes. I was inadvertently doing them while I was practicing guitar. That being said I don't recommend grip strength exercises using tools. It's too easy to overwork yourself that way.

doopfoopdoop 7y ago

Stupid anecdotal evidence here, but my experience with wrist/hand pain from computer use is that it's largely addressed by being strong. During my senior year of college, I had a lot hand pain and I also didn't go to the gym that year. Now, I type more than I ever have, but I'm also deadlifting over 500 lbs x 5 and I don't get any pain at all. (Dead)lifting is a remarkably good panacea. Back pain, mental blocks, anxiety. Fixes a lot of shit. If you're not lifting heavy, you should be. [0] is a good place to get started. The article mentions those grip strengtheners in (general) support of this--but the deadlift already does this (i.e., train grip) and a lot more. [0] https://aasgaardco.com/store/books-posters-dvd/books/starting-strength-basic-barbell-training/ https://aasgaardco.com/store/books-posters-dvd/books/startin...

mirimir 7y ago
I totally agree about the importance of being strong. But I don't think that dead lifts are the only way to get strong enough. You need the upper body strength to avoid supporting yourself on your wrists. They should just "float". Having good forearm support helps, but it's not enough if you're weak. And core strength helps prevent back pain. Along with a chair that helps you sit up straight, and provides lumbar support. Wrist curls and reverse wrist curls have also helped me a lot, for both wrists and elbows. I also use self-practice wrist locks for strengthening and stretching. Or with a rubber torsion rod.
- doopfoopdoop 7y ago
  > But I don't think that dead lifts are the only way to get strong enough. I think the key to getting strong is barbell exercises, because they can be precisely and incrementally loaded. (So you linearly progress.) > And core strength helps prevent back pain. Deadlifts, squats, and presses are all extremely good at developing "core" strength. Ab-specific exercises are not (they cannot be effectively loaded, and the loads are much smaller, and the spinal flexion/extension involved often aggravate existing back injury). > chair that helps you sit up straight, and provides lumbar support. If the chair is helping you, then you are not using your muscles and will continue to atrophy away. Lumbar support in general is not a good thing.

hinkley 7y ago

No shoulder exercises. They mention two conditions that are clearly shoulder problems and offer no exercises. Do some research on stretches for the pectoral is minor muscles. People who type almost universally have a rolled shoulder that can cause back and arm pain. This is caused by tight pec minors. https://www.bemyhealer.com/2016/03/22/3-reasons-pectoralis-minor-muscle-upper-body-pain/ https://www.bemyhealer.com/2016/03/22/3-reasons-pectoralis-m... is a reasonable place to start.

ebg13 7y ago
Agreed. In personal anecdotal experience, every single problem that I ever felt in my hands and wrists was actually caused by my neck and shoulders and went away with improved shoulder/trapezius strength and neck posture.

dceddia 7y ago

Switching to a Kinesis keyboard has helped my hand/wrist pain quite a bit. It seemed to be steadily getting worse, and disappeared after using the keyboard for a couple weeks. Another thing that helped is the book Conquering Carpal Tunnel Syndrome[0]. It has a good set of stretches to do categorized by what's bothering you. Even more impactful IMO, it teaches a technique they call the "stretch point": very gently & slowly stretching until you feel the first hint of a stretch, then pausing and waiting for the feeling to release, over and over. Versus what I was naturally doing before, which was to stretch until I really felt it, and hold for a while. The theory is that the slow/gentle stretch+release pattern is more effective for the smaller muscles and less likely to damage them. [0]: https://www.amazon.com/Conquering-Carpal-Syndrome-Repetitive-Injuries/dp/1572240393 https://www.amazon.com/Conquering-Carpal-Syndrome-Repetitive...

troydavis 7y ago

If you're into prevention, get an ergo-aware keyboard and mouse if you feel any discomfort at all. The starting points - and for many people, perfection - are a split keyboard (like https://kinesis-ergo.com/shop/freestyle2-for-pc-us/ https://kinesis-ergo.com/shop/freestyle2-for-pc-us/), ideally with the center elevated ("tented"), and a vertical mouse (like https://evoluent.com/products/vm4r/ https://evoluent.com/products/vm4r/). They have almost no learning curve. Kinesis has a 60-day money-back guarantee. These products should leave your wrists and hands at the same angles as when they hang at your side. Let your arms dangle freely, bend your elbows, and type/mouse.

city41 7y ago
I did both as a preventative measure about 2 years ago and am very glad I did. Extra bonus is the Kinesis Advantage2 is absolutely excellent to type on once you adjust to it.
maaaats 7y ago
I use a roller mouse, a bar below the keyboard. Feel it's even better than an ergonomic-but-standard-mouse, as I don't have to move my arm to the side. Fixed my stupid elbow.
toyg 7y ago
If you can get over the "gaming" look (lights can be disabled), the best keyboard from kinesis is their Freestyle Edge: https://gaming.kinesis-ergo.com/edge/ https://gaming.kinesis-ergo.com/edge/ As well as all the ergo goodness, you can reprogram it to an inch of its life. I have the first generation, use it with a Mac and a Colemak layout, and it's da bomb.

BubRoss 7y ago

Ergonomics is something that seems to be advancing very slowly. My current thinking is that split keyboards are important, having your hands low is important, having the keyboard tilted down is important, exercising entire muscle groups from back muscles to shoulders to forearms is important and making sure you have multiple good positions to adjust to is important. I think conventional wisdom is so far off the mark it will be laughable in 50 years. Look how twisted you have to place your hands to use a regular keyboard. You lift them up, tilt them up, tilt them to the side etc. Using a typical computer set up is basically putting yourself is a stress position. I want to have multiple, very different positions I can be in. Being able to lie down on a bean bag and use a tablet for some things would be even better.

Someone 7y ago
”You lift them up“ I don’t remember ever seeing that as ergonomic advice. Most, if not all, ergonomic advice says something along the lines of (https://www.webmd.com/back-pain/typing-posture-pain-prevention https://www.webmd.com/back-pain/typing-posture-pain-preventi...): ”Type at the right height. A lot of people place their keyboard directly on their desk, so it's just below chest level. But typing at that height for a long time limits circulation and stresses the joints and nerves in your arms, shoulders, and wrists. That can cause numbness and pain in those areas, as well as your back. It can even lead to long-term problems like carpal tunnel syndrome. The fix: If it's possible, use a keyboard tray that's placed beneath your desktop. Your keyboard should be slightly below your elbows.”
- BubRoss 7y ago
  For typing, that link is saying something similar to what I was saying. Most people don't do this and I'm not sure if is a common recommendation. I haven't ever seen a lowered keyboard tray despite having seen thousands of workstations.

marmot777 7y ago

Good stuff.

lightedman 7y ago

Practically everything mentioned in the article can be handled by a Dynaflex Powerball, which is what I used after having carpal tunnel surgery on my right wrist. Full ROM achieved and I can hang off a cliff face with that hand like nobody's business (and do when obtaining rock specimens.)

edoo 7y ago

Get a gyro exercise ball. They are crazy fun and 5 minutes of use clears up an entire day worth of typing stiffness. They can be used to strengthen any part of the arm including the shoulder.

hombre_fatal 7y ago
My friend and I would compete over who could get the highest score on the LCD display. Unfortunately it seems that wear over time slows it down. No matter how much stronger and experienced I get, I cannot beat the score I hit on day 2 on the same ball weeks and months later.
- edoo 7y ago
  I've owned many and there is nothing like a new one. The bearings always seem to wear down or get dirty. They make precision machined metal ones for super enthusiasts but I haven't tried those.

swader999 7y ago

Trigger point pressure on the scalenes for the win. Try it right now: https://youtu.be/HpJw0h72BlM https://youtu.be/HpJw0h72BlM

JBiserkov 7y ago

Exercise is very important. So is prevention. Learn and use Dvorak. Get an ergonomic keyboard. Non-affiliate links, ordered by increasing price. I have the 4000 and the Sculpt ergonomic for more than 5 years each. I've just started using the Ergodox. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000A6PPOK/ https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000A6PPOK/ https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00CYX26BC/ https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00CYX26BC/ https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00CYX54C0/ https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00CYX54C0/ https://ergodox-ez.com/ https://ergodox-ez.com/

Symbiote 7y ago
I've used Dvorak for over 15 years, but last month I was looking for a replacement for wearing-out Microsoft Natural 4000s, used at work and at home. The Kinesis Freestyle Edge [1] looked like a great option, but then I found myself swept into the rabbithole of custom mechanical keyboards. There is a frankly overwhelming number of decisions to make: split or not, with or without function/number/numpad/navigation keys, the usual row-staggered layout or column-staggered or a square grid, then the type of mechanical switch. Finally, there are the 3D-printed split keyboards meant to fit the shape of the hands. I ended up buying a Ergodash [2] kit [3] and soldering it myself. I've had it for less than a week so far, and though adapting to the column-staggered layout was reasonably quick, I'm still a bit hit-and-miss with pressing modifier keys with my thumb. I'm not yet ready to give it a proper review. Using a split keyboard has shown me I have a pretty poor keyboarding posture. Even with the traditional MS Natural ergonomic keyboard, I was twisting my right wrist because the keyboard is still narrower than my shoulders. Xah Lee's site has a good, quick overview of many of the most popular DIY[4] and manufactured[5] options. [1] https://gaming.kinesis-ergo.com/edge/ https://gaming.kinesis-ergo.com/edge/ [2] https://github.com/omkbd/ErgoDash https://github.com/omkbd/ErgoDash [3] I bought the Ergodash kit from Germany from https://keycapsss.com/ https://keycapsss.com/ , it's also available as a kit or assembled from Poland at https://falba.tech/ https://falba.tech/ [4] http://xahlee.info/kbd/diy_keyboards_index.html http://xahlee.info/kbd/diy_keyboards_index.html [5] http://xahlee.info/kbd/ergonomic_keyboards_index.html http://xahlee.info/kbd/ergonomic_keyboards_index.html

wodenokoto 7y ago

I have been using the wrist exercises [1] in Reddits r/bodyweight recommended routine [2]. I gotta admit that my wrists starts acting up when I don't do them for a while. I prefer them to most of what is recommended in TFA. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSZWSQSSEjE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSZWSQSSEjE [2] https://www.reddit.com/r/bodyweightfitness/wiki/kb/recommended_routine https://www.reddit.com/r/bodyweightfitness/wiki/kb/recommend...

LegitShady 7y ago
He has wrist pronation/supination that the list in OP doesn't seem to do.

dugmartin 7y ago

I was introduced to a several great wrist exercises by a fellow student at my TKD school that has advanced degrees in several martial arts and is also an occupational therapist. I have an issue with my right wrist caused by falling backwards and catching myself while playing basketball in highschool 30+ years ago. The exercise that helps the most is to hold my right arm out at full (almost hyperextended) length with the palm facing me and then placing my left hand behind my right and grabbing my right thumb while wrapping my left fingers around the bottom of my right palm. I then use my left arm to put greater and greater pressure on my right wrist. I then do the same to the left wrist. Doing that a couple of times a day while programming seems to "open up" my wrist. YMMV.

lcall 7y ago
Why downvoted? While as they said, YMMV. I also have had pain over time in my right hand/wrist (started around the same time as a minor bicycling accident), that was somewhat improved from exercises I accumulated by various reading, coworker suggestions, and wrist brace (the 2 doctors I did se didn't seem to actually help much except making a couple of suggestions), I also benefited from seeing a good physical therapist who recommended the best exercises I have found so far (for me, that is -- I get the idea that situations differ enough that individual evaluation might be best. Actually, I also saw a chiropracter and we discussed, confirming some things I was already doing, but a licensed massage therapist did something to it that made the pain go away for almost 2 solid weeks: I wish I knew of a person to do the same thing, who lives much closer to me, and I might look more for one again as time permits.

adrianscott 7y ago

Read John Sarno's work, also David Schechter's.

kpU8efre7r 7y ago
That Healing Back Pain book helped a lot of my wrist/back pain as well as my partner's back pain.

askvictor 7y ago

My physio's theory is that a heap of pain he treats (mostly back pain, but can extrapolate anywhere) is stress related (essentially psychosomatic); less about being under stress, more about not having an outlet for that stress. He says that Italians don't get back pain as they're always shouting at each other. Funny thing is the stress manifests itself in real physical problems, but mostly treating the physical problem will cause the symptom to move somewhere else. Was definitely the case for me (2 months after starting a new job, under high stress, had crippling should pain; worked itself out once I got the ropes and relaxed into it; obviously this is only an anecdote). His joking 'cure' is to go punch your boss in the face. More seriously, read some Dr John Sarno.

marpstar 7y ago

For the past few years I've had a lot of tension in my forearm muscles in my dominant arm. Causes for me include mouse usage, guitar strumming, and lifting heavy. I've tried stretches like these, arm roller/massagers, self-massaging techniques. While these have helped a bit, nothing has been as effective as these $10 straps[1]. When I'm having a "bad arm day", I throw one of these straps on for an hour or two and it really helps to take away the tension (and therefore most discomfort I've experienced). [1]: https://www.amazon.com/Tendonitis-Compression-Prevent-Fishing-Adjustable/dp/B07QNPMHKW/ https://www.amazon.com/Tendonitis-Compression-Prevent-Fishin...

LegitShady 7y ago
I had the same thing with forearms. What you're experiencing is tendonitis commonly known as tennis elbow. Those straps relieve stress but they dont help heal. overuse will weaken your muscles. In my case I spent some time studying the muscles of the forearm and analyzing my pain and movements. A TENS machine (cheap on amazon) targeting that muscle for 15 minutes helps a lot to make the muscle relax. One major stretch missing in this list is active (using your other hand to push past where you can move it normally) wrist pronation/supination. In my case the shortened muscle was the flexor carpi ulnaris (which operates your pinky and wrist deviation). when it was overused it presented as tennis elbow and wrist pain on the ulnar side of the wrist. When i do active wrist pronation/supination I can feel the stretch at the ulnar side of the wrist and at the lateral epicondyle, exactly where the pain used to be. By stretching my wrist daily, including active wrist pronation/supination stretches, and once it had better range of movement starting on light exercise with resistance bands, everything is back to normal. But try and figure out where your problem is exactly. your forearm and wrists are complicated and not just one muscle.

lcall 7y ago

Some other recent discussions (not comprehensive): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12931885 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12931885 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12986759 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12986759 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15182304 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15182304