10 ms·

Debian 10.2

205 points by jrepinc 7y ago

icefo 7y ago
I'm happy they decided to backport the fix for cyrus ! Some mails could become hidden on update from cyrus 2.5 to 3 I didn't want to use backports for a mail server and after the maintainers decided to not patch the SSL bug in the previous release (https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=863520 https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=863520) I was afraid they would do the same.
Medicalidiot 7y ago
One of Debian's draw backs is that simply finding the download page on its website is an arduous process.
- bayindirh 7y ago
  Just use http://cdimage.debian.org http://cdimage.debian.org
- _def 7y ago
  This is not really the case and especially not a drawback of the distro. The net-installer is pretty in-your-face and the other images are rather easy to find.
  - e12e 7y ago
    I love Debian, and their push for Free software - but to mis-quote The Matrix: "What good is a network Iso, if you have no (wireless) network card (driver)?". The faq doesn't really answer this in a way that'd let your average user be certain they can install via wifi: https://www.debian.org/CD/faq/#nonfree https://www.debian.org/CD/faq/#nonfree
- xorcist 7y ago
  Literally there's a green download box on the front page, up and to the right. It will give you the most commonly used installer. You could also press / and type "download" and it's the first hit.
  - jancsika 7y ago
    > Literally there's a green download box on the front page, up and to the right. In fact, there is literally a small white rectangle with light green text that is difficult to read. The rectangle is only filled green if the user happens to mouse over it. Also the box floats well outside the center view of the page-- i.e., the user has to use time and energy to move their eye outside the main text flow to that area. Compare to the Ubuntu front page where the download link is in the flow of the main block of text. Again, to be literal: default: unobtrusive box with small text and an icon that has an arrow outlined in a gray-on-a-white-bg so light I can barely see it on my wide LCD screen. mouseover: box becomes more prominent and text becomes readable That's the opposite of the style you described. > You could also press / and type "download" and it's the first hit. It's funny because the design you are defending is one of the few that breaks the discoverability of Firefox's wonderful realtime search. FF search is so helpful because a) the text gets highlighted in realtime as the user types and b) FF will jump to a scroll position that brings the current highlighted text into view. Because Debian's unobtrusive download box is outside the main text flow and at the top of the page, the user is unlikely to notice the realtime selection and they don't get the benefit of a scroll jump. So yes, FF "/" is awesome, but Debian's website somehow finds the way to make it the least effective at revealing that download link to the user.
  - jeltz 7y ago
    I have downloaded Debian multiple times the last few and I have never seen that green box. In fact I did not see it when I visited their page earlier today to check if 10.2 had been released yet. So, even if it is there it was invisible to me.
- ebg13 7y ago
  These days I use https://fiendish.github.io/The-Debian-Gotham-Needs/ https://fiendish.github.io/The-Debian-Gotham-Needs/ Because despite the rapid dismissal from these other yahoos, finding an image with WiFi firmware from the front page is a nightmare maze of wrong links and secret knowledge.
  - ChikkaChiChi 7y ago
    That's fantastic :)
  - lottin 7y ago
    > cp iso_file_name_here /dev/sd<your_usb_key_dev_id> ; sync Didn't know you could do that.
    - ebg13 7y ago
      Yeah. Apparently cp got a lot smarter about isos at some point? Like basically everything else GNU/Linux, I'd never have guessed if some random website didn't say to try it. (I can't respond to you person responding to me, but I meant that I think cp being able to write a working image directly to a dev was not always true, and people always used dd for that before)
      - throwaway8941 7y ago
        It has nothing to do with cp being smart. You can do the same thing with dd, or simply with shell redirection (cat >/…) It works only for hybrid ISOs. Not every ISO supports this, although many do.
    - tuldia 7y ago
      I guess pretty much any tool that copies files will do that too. I like that!
  - tuldia 7y ago
    Wifi firmwares are non-free and are not included in the official iso for a reason. Search for "debian non-free iso" and you probably will find what you are looking for. > ...nightmare maze of wrong links and secret knowledge. Please, don't exaggerate.
- ChikkaChiChi 7y ago
  The top of the page has a link to "Getting Debian" which puts you on a guided process to ensuring you can select the correct download for your needs. I wouldn't consider reading to be an arduous process.
  - marcosdumay 7y ago
    What is the difference between a small CD or a tiny CD? What is it in size, and what is it in features? (I happen to know the answer to that question, but random people getting on their site most likely don't.) All the destinations from that page will lead you to images that do not work over wifi on nearly any laptop. The actual links for the images are small, without weight, in a place that nobody looks for. What from that soup of letters is your computer's architecture?
- ratsmack 7y ago
  I just go to this page and download via bittorrent: http://bttracker.debian.org:6969/stat http://bttracker.debian.org:6969/stat
m6w6 7y ago
What's actually the point in those point releases? Don't understand me wrong, I'm running Debian on all my servers, but on the desktop I'm in love wit the rolling release model. Is it just to overcome the initial upgrade inertia?
- zozbot234 7y ago
  It's just a cumulative update to their stable release. Debian usually releases one every few months.
- itomato 7y ago
  Rolling upgrades are nice on the desktop, where you are computing more and more in the Mobile paradigm, where all software disappears behind an app store gateway. Fine for the laptop, poor for the server farm.
- samueloph 7y ago
  There are some good points I can see: * Knowing which version of the installer you are using, so you know which versions of what are gonna be installed by default, sometimes the installer itself will contain bugfixes (but not always). * Knowing what is the minimum patchset applied to a system. You can check the etc release files and get a summary of the updates applied, eg.: if you see release 10.2 you will know that at least all of the patches up until 10.2 were applied. This one is very useful if you are debugging a system and want to get an overall idea of how up-to-date it is, if you are debugging a system that it's behind the latest updates, you should always consider that as a possible cause, knowing which is the point release allows you to reduce the diff/bugs you will be looking at.
- joana035 7y ago
  There are places in the world where internet is not accessible, maybe for you it's a commodity but for some people is easy to burn a CD and send it to those who needs it.
  - m6w6 7y ago
    Oh, yeah, this makes totally sense, I did not think about that. Thanks!
teddyh 7y ago
Please note: Starting with Debian 7, the minor number is not part of the Debian release number, and numbers with a minor component like 9.4 or 9.7 now indicate a point release. Basically, only security updates and major bug fixes, with new updated installation media images. This, 10.2, is not a new major release of Debian.
- mmphosis 7y ago
  cat /etc/debian_version
  - teddyh 7y ago
    cat /etc/os-release
    - holoduke 7y ago
      tac /etc/issue
miclill 7y ago
Does anyone know of a distribution other than debian with a social contract[1]? To me this is the reason why I never really considered another distribution. [1] https://www.debian.org/social_contract https://www.debian.org/social_contract
- tyingq 7y ago
  Parabola, based on Arch, has one: https://wiki.parabola.nu/Parabola_Social_Contract https://wiki.parabola.nu/Parabola_Social_Contract
  - miclill 7y ago
    Thanks. There is a spelling mistake here: "...and adhocratic it its form,..." I think it should be: "...and adhocratic in its form,..." Can't find a way to edit the wiki. Anybody know how to contact the people behind the project?
    - johnchristopher 7y ago
      From clicking on the header I can see two emails in the bottom of the page and the right column has `People` and `Hackers` section which both lead to pages full of email.
- seqizz 7y ago
  Gentoo also has it: https://www.gentoo.org/get-started/philosophy/social-contract.html https://www.gentoo.org/get-started/philosophy/social-contrac...
- nextos 7y ago
  That's the great thing about Debian. A great community with a clear purpose. But I think their tooling and policies have become outdated, which prevents faster progress. I wish they would switch to some Nix-like alternative, which was discussed in their developer list long ago. The genius of Nix is that packages do not need to depend on the same dependencies. Hence, the whole package tree does not need to be kept in sync. Another great advantage are declarative package specifications. I maintain several packages for NixOS, and a bot does auto-updates for me. I just check upstream hasn't introduced any malicious code. Lastly, shipping many "distributions" becomes trivial with Nix. A distribution is just a package channel plus a declarative setup written in a small half-a-page expression. So you can easily create a minimal Debian, a Debian with a GNOME desktop, a Debian with a Xface desktop, a Debian with a KDE desktop, etc.
ArchLinux4life 7y ago
Everyone could just use Arch Linux, who needs these archaic distros anymore. Trivial to make Arch "stable," also, without living on two year old updates and releases, like Debian and Ubuntu both does. Choose Arch, choose life. Arch is the only distribution. <3
- IAgree5 7y ago
  Thank god for Arch Linux. Who would ever use Debian, Ubuntu, CentOS, and all that trash. Let's Arch it up. You have to be illiterate to not use Arch every day. No reason, whatsoever, to not use Arch Linux. Fucking pagans.
- jolmg 7y ago
  I absolutely love Archlinux and still downvoted you. The rich ecosystem of Linux distributions is not something I'd like to get rid of. There's also nothing archaic about Debian.
- simion314 7y ago
  You then can skip playing the lottery too, at each update you will get possible fixes for bugs that don't affect you and new bugs that will affect you, plus some designer with a giant ego would change years old workflows and you will be forced to change to match the software and not configure the software to match you. There are many people that run both stable and rolling and the reason is the best tool for the job, you are making a big disservice to the community at the same time contributing to the horible image of the Arch community. Btw Arch people, you need to learn from Rust and publicly shame this fanboys if is not already too late.
TekMol 7y ago
What does that mean? Will my daily "apt update && apt upgrade" get me this?
- zozbot234 7y ago
  Yup. Sometimes you might actually need "apt full-upgrade" to get everything right, but not today.
  - h1d 7y ago
    What do you mean by getting everything right by full-upgrade?
  - missingrib 7y ago
    Don't you mean "apt dist-upgrade"? Or are they the same thing

205 points by jrepinc 7y ago

I'm happy they decided to backport the fix for cyrus ! Some mails could become hidden on update from cyrus 2.5 to 3 I didn't want to use backports for a mail server and after the maintainers decided to not patch the SSL bug in the previous release (https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=863520 https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=863520) I was afraid they would do the same.

Medicalidiot 7y ago

One of Debian's draw backs is that simply finding the download page on its website is an arduous process.

bayindirh 7y ago
Just use http://cdimage.debian.org http://cdimage.debian.org
_def 7y ago
This is not really the case and especially not a drawback of the distro. The net-installer is pretty in-your-face and the other images are rather easy to find.
- e12e 7y ago
  I love Debian, and their push for Free software - but to mis-quote The Matrix: "What good is a network Iso, if you have no (wireless) network card (driver)?". The faq doesn't really answer this in a way that'd let your average user be certain they can install via wifi: https://www.debian.org/CD/faq/#nonfree https://www.debian.org/CD/faq/#nonfree
xorcist 7y ago
Literally there's a green download box on the front page, up and to the right. It will give you the most commonly used installer. You could also press / and type "download" and it's the first hit.
- jancsika 7y ago
  > Literally there's a green download box on the front page, up and to the right. In fact, there is literally a small white rectangle with light green text that is difficult to read. The rectangle is only filled green if the user happens to mouse over it. Also the box floats well outside the center view of the page-- i.e., the user has to use time and energy to move their eye outside the main text flow to that area. Compare to the Ubuntu front page where the download link is in the flow of the main block of text. Again, to be literal: default: unobtrusive box with small text and an icon that has an arrow outlined in a gray-on-a-white-bg so light I can barely see it on my wide LCD screen. mouseover: box becomes more prominent and text becomes readable That's the opposite of the style you described. > You could also press / and type "download" and it's the first hit. It's funny because the design you are defending is one of the few that breaks the discoverability of Firefox's wonderful realtime search. FF search is so helpful because a) the text gets highlighted in realtime as the user types and b) FF will jump to a scroll position that brings the current highlighted text into view. Because Debian's unobtrusive download box is outside the main text flow and at the top of the page, the user is unlikely to notice the realtime selection and they don't get the benefit of a scroll jump. So yes, FF "/" is awesome, but Debian's website somehow finds the way to make it the least effective at revealing that download link to the user.
- jeltz 7y ago
  I have downloaded Debian multiple times the last few and I have never seen that green box. In fact I did not see it when I visited their page earlier today to check if 10.2 had been released yet. So, even if it is there it was invisible to me.
ebg13 7y ago
These days I use https://fiendish.github.io/The-Debian-Gotham-Needs/ https://fiendish.github.io/The-Debian-Gotham-Needs/ Because despite the rapid dismissal from these other yahoos, finding an image with WiFi firmware from the front page is a nightmare maze of wrong links and secret knowledge.
- ChikkaChiChi 7y ago
  That's fantastic :)
- lottin 7y ago
  > cp iso_file_name_here /dev/sd<your_usb_key_dev_id> ; sync Didn't know you could do that.
  - ebg13 7y ago
    Yeah. Apparently cp got a lot smarter about isos at some point? Like basically everything else GNU/Linux, I'd never have guessed if some random website didn't say to try it. (I can't respond to you person responding to me, but I meant that I think cp being able to write a working image directly to a dev was not always true, and people always used dd for that before)
    - throwaway8941 7y ago
      It has nothing to do with cp being smart. You can do the same thing with dd, or simply with shell redirection (cat >/…) It works only for hybrid ISOs. Not every ISO supports this, although many do.
  - tuldia 7y ago
    I guess pretty much any tool that copies files will do that too. I like that!
- tuldia 7y ago
  Wifi firmwares are non-free and are not included in the official iso for a reason. Search for "debian non-free iso" and you probably will find what you are looking for. > ...nightmare maze of wrong links and secret knowledge. Please, don't exaggerate.
ChikkaChiChi 7y ago
The top of the page has a link to "Getting Debian" which puts you on a guided process to ensuring you can select the correct download for your needs. I wouldn't consider reading to be an arduous process.
- marcosdumay 7y ago
  What is the difference between a small CD or a tiny CD? What is it in size, and what is it in features? (I happen to know the answer to that question, but random people getting on their site most likely don't.) All the destinations from that page will lead you to images that do not work over wifi on nearly any laptop. The actual links for the images are small, without weight, in a place that nobody looks for. What from that soup of letters is your computer's architecture?
ratsmack 7y ago
I just go to this page and download via bittorrent: http://bttracker.debian.org:6969/stat http://bttracker.debian.org:6969/stat

m6w6 7y ago

What's actually the point in those point releases? Don't understand me wrong, I'm running Debian on all my servers, but on the desktop I'm in love wit the rolling release model. Is it just to overcome the initial upgrade inertia?

zozbot234 7y ago
It's just a cumulative update to their stable release. Debian usually releases one every few months.
itomato 7y ago
Rolling upgrades are nice on the desktop, where you are computing more and more in the Mobile paradigm, where all software disappears behind an app store gateway. Fine for the laptop, poor for the server farm.
samueloph 7y ago
There are some good points I can see: * Knowing which version of the installer you are using, so you know which versions of what are gonna be installed by default, sometimes the installer itself will contain bugfixes (but not always). * Knowing what is the minimum patchset applied to a system. You can check the etc release files and get a summary of the updates applied, eg.: if you see release 10.2 you will know that at least all of the patches up until 10.2 were applied. This one is very useful if you are debugging a system and want to get an overall idea of how up-to-date it is, if you are debugging a system that it's behind the latest updates, you should always consider that as a possible cause, knowing which is the point release allows you to reduce the diff/bugs you will be looking at.
joana035 7y ago
There are places in the world where internet is not accessible, maybe for you it's a commodity but for some people is easy to burn a CD and send it to those who needs it.
- m6w6 7y ago
  Oh, yeah, this makes totally sense, I did not think about that. Thanks!

teddyh 7y ago

Please note: Starting with Debian 7, the minor number is not part of the Debian release number, and numbers with a minor component like 9.4 or 9.7 now indicate a point release. Basically, only security updates and major bug fixes, with new updated installation media images. This, 10.2, is not a new major release of Debian.

mmphosis 7y ago
cat /etc/debian_version
- teddyh 7y ago
  cat /etc/os-release
  - holoduke 7y ago
    tac /etc/issue

miclill 7y ago

Does anyone know of a distribution other than debian with a social contract[1]? To me this is the reason why I never really considered another distribution. [1] https://www.debian.org/social_contract https://www.debian.org/social_contract

tyingq 7y ago
Parabola, based on Arch, has one: https://wiki.parabola.nu/Parabola_Social_Contract https://wiki.parabola.nu/Parabola_Social_Contract
- miclill 7y ago
  Thanks. There is a spelling mistake here: "...and adhocratic it its form,..." I think it should be: "...and adhocratic in its form,..." Can't find a way to edit the wiki. Anybody know how to contact the people behind the project?
  - johnchristopher 7y ago
    From clicking on the header I can see two emails in the bottom of the page and the right column has `People` and `Hackers` section which both lead to pages full of email.
seqizz 7y ago
Gentoo also has it: https://www.gentoo.org/get-started/philosophy/social-contract.html https://www.gentoo.org/get-started/philosophy/social-contrac...
nextos 7y ago
That's the great thing about Debian. A great community with a clear purpose. But I think their tooling and policies have become outdated, which prevents faster progress. I wish they would switch to some Nix-like alternative, which was discussed in their developer list long ago. The genius of Nix is that packages do not need to depend on the same dependencies. Hence, the whole package tree does not need to be kept in sync. Another great advantage are declarative package specifications. I maintain several packages for NixOS, and a bot does auto-updates for me. I just check upstream hasn't introduced any malicious code. Lastly, shipping many "distributions" becomes trivial with Nix. A distribution is just a package channel plus a declarative setup written in a small half-a-page expression. So you can easily create a minimal Debian, a Debian with a GNOME desktop, a Debian with a Xface desktop, a Debian with a KDE desktop, etc.

ArchLinux4life 7y ago

Everyone could just use Arch Linux, who needs these archaic distros anymore. Trivial to make Arch "stable," also, without living on two year old updates and releases, like Debian and Ubuntu both does. Choose Arch, choose life. Arch is the only distribution. <3

IAgree5 7y ago
Thank god for Arch Linux. Who would ever use Debian, Ubuntu, CentOS, and all that trash. Let's Arch it up. You have to be illiterate to not use Arch every day. No reason, whatsoever, to not use Arch Linux. Fucking pagans.
jolmg 7y ago
I absolutely love Archlinux and still downvoted you. The rich ecosystem of Linux distributions is not something I'd like to get rid of. There's also nothing archaic about Debian.
simion314 7y ago
You then can skip playing the lottery too, at each update you will get possible fixes for bugs that don't affect you and new bugs that will affect you, plus some designer with a giant ego would change years old workflows and you will be forced to change to match the software and not configure the software to match you. There are many people that run both stable and rolling and the reason is the best tool for the job, you are making a big disservice to the community at the same time contributing to the horible image of the Arch community. Btw Arch people, you need to learn from Rust and publicly shame this fanboys if is not already too late.

TekMol 7y ago

What does that mean? Will my daily "apt update && apt upgrade" get me this?

zozbot234 7y ago
Yup. Sometimes you might actually need "apt full-upgrade" to get everything right, but not today.
- h1d 7y ago
  What do you mean by getting everything right by full-upgrade?
- missingrib 7y ago
  Don't you mean "apt dist-upgrade"? Or are they the same thing