15 ms·

Upgrading Messaging on Android in the U.S. with RCS

110 points by trimbo 7y ago

ocdtrekkie 7y ago
I am very curious how carriers will respond to Google deciding to preempt them by pushing an app update to redirect all text messaging straight to Google servers versus the carriers. Google seemed like it was respecting the carriers' involvement, right up until carriers announced plans to build their own RCS system that didn't give Google the data. Suddenly, Google is turning on RCS? Presumably Google was hoping it could convince carriers to pay Google to host their messaging platforms, and when Google lost that gamble, they decided they still wanted the data either way. This is the sort of coup I half-wonder if carriers would drop the Android platform over. (At the very least, I think four more large companies will be vocally supporting the DOJ's antitrust investigation.)
- Mindwipe 7y ago
  To be honest, I think they might find after it's turned on that the limitation to the Google Messages app (which is not the default on Samsung devices and hence represents very little in terms of market share) doesn't move the needle at all and makes very little difference. Certainly, the impact of turning it on on the UK market seems to have been zero. If Google follows through by enabling it system wide in future OS versions that might change a little, but Android being as it is that will take a long, long time, and the carriers probably suspect their own RCS implementations will have worked before then, or Whatsapp will just take over the US too and RCS will be dead.
  - Avamander 7y ago
    I doubt Whatsapp will take over US too, the network effect is probably too strong for that to happen. For the same reason FB Messenger seems to still dominate some markets and Telegram others, even if theoretically Whatsapp could take both over because neighbouring countries are using them.
  - kelnos 7y ago
    I do use the Google Messages app, but I don't plan to enable RCS any time soon. The main reason is that I use the "SMS Backup & Restore" app to back up my SMSes & MMSes, and it's unable to back up RCS messages because they're stored in a separate DB that currently has no system API access. So chalk that up as perhaps another reason why some people won't "upgrade".
calin2k 7y ago
phone are running android os isn't it? carriers still can roll their rcs on ios
- ocdtrekkie 7y ago
  Apple has shown no interest in supporting RCS, because the features it adds are basically akin to iMessage... which iPhones already have.
  - Daniel_sk 7y ago
    And RCS has no support for E2E encryption, it would be actually a downgrade from iMessage.
    - umeshunni 7y ago
      Not for iOS users sending messages to Android users.
atonse 7y ago
Can anyone confirm the biggest issue (in my opinion) with RCS? It's not end-to-end encrypted. Update: Confirmed it myself [1]. End-to-end encryption is not even an option. Which is perfect for the data addicts like Google. But honestly I would never ever recommend this as an avenue for people to use over something like WhatsApp. [1]: https://www.theverge.com/2019/11/14/20964477/googles-rcs-chat-android-rollout-us-ccmi-texting-sms https://www.theverge.com/2019/11/14/20964477/googles-rcs-cha...
- dannyw 7y ago
  Meanwhile in the land of iMessage...
- dmix 7y ago
  Indeed, this seems to be needlessly kicking life back into SMS when it was already being replaced by better systems that respect privacy. Of course the decentralized nature of SMS is a good benefit but given how most telecoms are oligopolies disinterested in customers concerns about privacy (and plenty of other things like customer service) it pretty much defeats the value in it.
  - pathartl 7y ago
    I wouldn't say needlessly. There's still something to be said for basic technologies that all devices can support.
    - dmix 7y ago
      Sure, agreed it's useful as a backbone sort of system like phones. Which will always be the biggest fundamental flaw with something like Signal or WhatsApp (the need for centralized servers, the requirement to install 3rd party software). There may be a role for these telecom services to exist perpetually as a backup services, while everyone still uses apps as their primary communication method. But RCS seems to be trying to bring SMS to parity with messaging apps supporting emoticons and media-heavy content, the intention is the same "conversations with friends" use-case as the messaging apps. There may even be an argument to keep SMS dumb and simple like phone lines. Especially if they aren't going to adopt encryption with the rest.
brenden2 7y ago
I've only got a cursory understanding of RCS, but in what way is this good for consumers? I can understand how it's good for Google, but aside from Google it's unclear how anyone benefits.
- advisedwang 7y ago
  New features vs SMS. Don't require customers to use silo'd apps (although I guess you could consider RCS a silo in itself)
- xxpor 7y ago
  MMS is literally the worst. But convincing people to switch to a different chat app in the US is a losing battle.
- rectang 7y ago
  > I've only got a cursory understanding of RCS Try `man rcs`. Heh. I hate name collisions.
  - cameronbrown 7y ago
    Something something naming things.. ;)
  - AWildC182 7y ago
    My first thought on seeing the post was "What do reaction control system have to do with android?"
- throw7 7y ago
  RCS was the next version of SMS from the telecoms. Of course, while sms was a defacto standard across carriers, RCS fragmented. They made it only work within your specific carrier with their own text app. This next RCS is a deriguer standard called RCS UniversalProfile. Google has pushed to get a wide group of carriers on board. It's been a long time, but it seems to be getting there...... maybe....
Daniel_sk 7y ago
The blue bubbles in the GIF example look exactly like iMessage on iOS, coincidence?
- pb7 7y ago
  No chance.
- nacs 7y ago
  Except unlike in iMessage where blue bubbles basically mean end-to-end encrypted messaging, Google's version is completely unencrypted.
Aghoree 7y ago
Can't wait for no one to use it ever
- dang 7y ago
  "Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
jlgaddis 7y ago
Is this basically an Android-only version of iMessages?
- advisedwang 7y ago
  Right now, yes, but without multi-device support. In theory Apple could join too and then it would work for everyone.
- pathartl 7y ago
  No, it's an industry agreed standard of an implementation similar to iMessage without end to end encryption. It was created by many of the carriers as an upgrade to SMS.
  - notyourday 7y ago
    Without Apple supporting it this is not a messaging standard, rather it is another Google's fumble at creating a messaging app.
    - phh 7y ago
      It definitely is a standard, defined by 3GPP. Apple alone doesn't get to decide what is a standard. Google's Messaging app is just one implementation of the protocol. There are other implementations, that are actually used. Samsung have their own, some carriers have their own. It really is an ecosystem.
  - wlesieutre 7y ago
    It's an industry standard, but if Apple doesn't implement it in iOS then it's only useable from one Android device to another. That effectively makes it into crappy iMessage for Android. Only works within one OS ecosystem, but it's unencrypted, managed by your carrier, and limited to the one cellular device itself instead of also working directly on your wifi-connected tablet and computer. It would be nice of Apple to support this if it's an improvement over SMS/MMS, but Apple drags their feet on supporting any sort of standards that they didn't create. And even some that they did (pour one out for OpenCL).
Causality1 7y ago
Those are nice features, but half the people I talk to use iOS so I'm not going to use any of them. Trying to remember who has what is too much hassle.
mrandish 7y ago
Let me see if I understand the strategic landscape around RCS correctly... * To the extent RCS: a) makes it easier for users to switch between mobile providers and keep advanced features that used to be offered for lock-in or more $$, or b) makes it easier for users to switch between the old SMS network and wifi - then, it's not good for mobile telco provider's business models. * To the extent RCS increases privacy for users (E2E encryption, etc) - then, it's not good for Google's business models. * To the extent it allows feature-rich messaging to work across ALL major platforms (Android, Web & iOS)- then, it's not good for Apple's platform lock-in. While I agree that an open, extensible, feature-rich, privacy-aware, cross-platform, cross-network messaging standard is highly desirable - is it correct that RCS (as currently formulated) is a non-starter and, from a strategic perspective, always was?
- rusk 7y ago
  I remember this the last time around, with MMS 20 years ago. It was a non-starter then and I’ve seen little this time around to give me confidence this will be different. The Google thing is a novel digression, but from where I’m sitting it looks like they’re just trying to fence off a section of the market for themselves and adding little else besides.
- 9nGQluzmnq3M 7y ago
  RCS does not have end-to-end encryption. It has network level encryption, but so does SMS, and that means anybody on the operator side can decrypt it. https://www.thercsblog.com/2018/10/16/rcs-encryption-the-lowdown/ https://www.thercsblog.com/2018/10/16/rcs-encryption-the-low...
m-p-3 7y ago
No E2EE is a dealbreaker for me, no reason for me to use that or old-fashioned SMS.
JohnFen 7y ago
No, thanks. I really, really, really don't want SMS "upgraded" in this way. If I wanted something like RCS, I'd be using a messaging app. Here's hoping that everything remains compatible with old-school SMS.
- barbs 7y ago
  I'm the same. Use other messaging apps for E2EE and other advanced features, fall back to SMS of there's no data connection or to ensure compatibility with the person on the other end.
- gowld 7y ago
  Why use SMS instead of a messaging app? Why is the call network side channel the ideal cellular messaging protocol?
  - JohnFen 7y ago
    The call network side is universal. Messaging apps aren't. It's really that simple for me. With SMS, I don't have to agree with the other parties about what app we're going to use. We can just exchange messages without a hassle. The only downside is the lack of encryption, but I can live with that. Another consideration, and this is why I'm resistant to RCS, is that I actively don't want all the bells and whistles that messaging apps have. All I want to do is be able to exchange short plain text messages.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
  - stonogo 7y ago
    There are people who do not want to install four hundred messaging apps. There are even people who do not want to install one messaging app. Calls and texts are included in phone plans, and despite Facebook's marketing, there are still more SMS users than Whatsapp users. There is no ideal cellular messaging protocol. People aren't going to change programs because some computer person is enamored with a specific encryption platform.
nkellenicki 7y ago
A couple of weeks ago AT&T, Verizon, Sprint, and T-Mobile announced that they had started working on their cross-provider RCS implementation - https://www.theverge.com/2019/10/24/20931202/us-carriers-rcs-cross-carrier-messaging-initiative-ccmi-att-tmobile-sprint-verizon https://www.theverge.com/2019/10/24/20931202/us-carriers-rcs... Does Google doing this essentially mean they've gotten sick of waiting for the carriers and decided to bypass them entirely? If so, the carriers can't be happy about that.
- ocdtrekkie 7y ago
  Google was trying to market Jibe as a service carriers could pay for to handle their RCS messaging for them. When carriers announced CCMI, they made it clear they weren't interested in paying for Jibe. https://jibe.google.com/jibe-platform/ https://jibe.google.com/jibe-platform/ Clearly, Google wants the data badly enough to provide said messaging services for free, and doesn't want carriers to keep the data to themselves. But they were hoping carriers would pay them and that they'd also get the data.
AcerbicZero 7y ago
There was a time when I really thought Google was going to shake things up. Nexus Phones, Google Fiber, Google Fi, etc all sounded awesome. I bought a Nexus 5, switched to Fi, went through the super fun process of mixing around my google voice numbers, (breaking all kinds of stuff) but eventually I was mostly setup and functional. I'd lost some core parts of gVoice, but I figured it was just a matter of time before it was back up to a similar level. Having Hangouts as a full featured SMS/Voice/MMS replacement, which also let you do all of those things from your computer was an awesome experience. GV features like Spam filter wasn't supported with Fi, and just accessing your GV account with a Fi subscription on your google account was difficult. Then they split SMS/Hangouts (although Fi users were somewhat grandfathered in), which broke basically every text convo I had going on, and made it more difficult to text Hangout friends compared with SMS only friends. Then they rolled back the gVoice/Fi plans, and made it clear that Hangouts was going away, and gVoice wasn't going to be an option. Then the Nexus phones started to get worse instead of better. The 6P was mediocre at best, and "Stock" Android was starting to make compromises, while somehow getting worse. The Pixels have continued this trend of decline, Hangouts can't really even send Gifs anymore (size limit of like, 3mb or something) Fi has made almost no progress, and when Hangouts goes away I'll be retiring the last of my Android devices. Kind of a long rant, but my point is I don't trust google to do anything competent in this space, and even if they did, I wouldn't trust them not to fuck it up 6 months later.
- dmead 7y ago
  I guess you're on apple stuff then? my nexus 6 just broke and im on an old 5x thats barely funtional. the pixels all look atrocious with no end in sight.
  - abawany 7y ago
    The pixel 3a has been a pretty nice device at a good price (299 with Google Fi - you can cancel the latter after one day and still keep the discount according to their reps). It is a mid-range device though.
  - Daniel_sk 7y ago
    The 5X is probably the worst Nexus ever, it was a low end device that is so frustrating to use that it probably made many people to switch to iPhone :-).
bonerpolizei 7y ago
I'm guessing this is what borked names being attached in SMS Hangouts chat in Gmail. Anyone else having this issue?
- pilom 7y ago
  Yep, just noticed that today as well.
iamaelephant 7y ago
This is very exciting for the 8 people still using SMS I suppose.
- berns 7y ago
  That's an exaggeration, there are still 8 countries not using Whatsapp or WeChat.
- grzte 7y ago
  Counterpoint here: all the SMS messages I receive are just 2fa messages. Everybody is on whatsapp
- JohnFen 7y ago
  Literally everyone I know uses SMS. Some of those people also use other messaging apps, but they use SMS as well.
- qntty 7y ago
  I must have missed the memo
- mrweasel 7y ago
  That's very depend on country, and user segment. You'll read stories like "You must have Whatsapp to communicate in Europe", but in countries like Denmark, it's just SMS (unless you're on an iPhone that will automatically use iMessage). For my circles of friends and family it's either SMS or iMessage and iMessage is only because most people don't realise that it's not SMS. I am a little confused as to why they don't simple sneak RCS in, like Apple have done with iMessage. Just upgrade the users to RCS if available and fallback to SMS if not.
- etaioinshrdlu 7y ago
  I'm a 20 something in tech circles in the West Coast of the US and I use SMS at least some of the time to communicate with: * Brother * Mother * Father * Uncle 1 * Uncle 2 * Roommate 1 * Roommate 2 * Friend of roommate * Cousin * Business partner All of that is in just the last week. SMS is the first messaging system softened mentioned when meeting new people. Because it's a lowest common demoninator. Why am I not cool enough to hang out with Whatsapp-using people? Joking....
vinvin 7y ago
How is there not an uproar over the lack of E2E encryption? With all the headlines lately around Cambridge Analytica and Snowden and Facebook - who in their right mind is okay with letting Google read their text messages? It's insane.
codedokode 7y ago
Isn't RCS invented to let mobile carriers take back the market of mobile messaging from messengers like Telegram or Whatsapp? There will be no encryption, it won't work without Internet and users can be charged for every message. Of course, no sane person will want to use it so Google will have to add something that will be available only to RCS and not to other messengers.
jbredeche 7y ago
I have a Pixel 3XL on Google Fi. Every time I try to enable Chat Features on Messages, it just grays out on "Setting up ...". If I try too many times in a day, it locks me out for 24 hours. If Google can't figure out how to make it work _on their own phone carrier_, I really do not have much hope for Android's messaging strategy.
Aaronstotle 7y ago
New protocol in 2019 with no support for encryption, this is not acceptable.
- DaiPlusPlus 7y ago
  If it was encrypted then adoption in most of the rest of the world would go nowhere. SMS isn’t encrypted either - but this is still an upgrade.
- kbenson 7y ago
  The protocol is from 2008. None of the carriers were getting around to supporting it (since it's federates to AT&T and Verizon have to have their own servers that talk to each other), so Google is publishing a "universal profile" so Android can talk to Android at least. This is really just Google kicking the carriers kicking and screaming into 2010 level technology. As a standalone protocol, it's not great. As an upgrade to SMS it's long overdue.
awill 7y ago
RCS has completely blown up in Google's face. They should have just copied Apple and created gMessage
- toast0 7y ago
  They did: Google Talk/gChat, Hangouts, Allo, Duo, Wave (I think it did messaging, I don't really know). There's probably more I forgot. Google Talk notably supported tons of mobile platforms and was XMPP based and had federation, before they started down their path of reinventing messaging over and over.
  - tuxracer 7y ago
    Sure they created a lot of apps but they never replicated THE key feature of iMessage which is seamless SMS fallback within the same app. You don't have to even think about "Oh this person doesn't use such and such app" Allo came the closest but messages sent to phone numbers not on Allo were sent through some proxy number so the recipient ended up getting the message as from some random google phone number. RCS is the closest Google has ever come to the effortlessness of iMessage in terms of having a single app you can message anyone with, and incidentally there are some benefits if the other person is using a compatible app but regardless the message will get through (and from your number) one way or another.
    - hocuspocus 7y ago
      > Sure they created a lot of apps but they never replicated THE key feature of iMessage which is seamless SMS fallback within the same app. You don't have to even think about "Oh this person doesn't use such and such app" To be fair, while Google certainly could have had a better strategy, replicating Apple's would probably have been a failure. For several reasons, iMessage's success is very US-centric. SMS fall-back is really not an option in countries where unlimited SMS isn't the norm. Google should have tried harder to acquire Whatsapp, or at least grab another big fish in this space (like Viber). RCS is going to benefit carriers more than Google, since they might claim back some of the IM traffic. Google realizes it can at least try to control the app (Messages) which will be deployed to most low and mid-range Android phones, that are running stock or close to stock Android.
awill 7y ago
I use PulseSMS. Unless Google quickly allows third party apps to integrate, third party apps are all doomed. Isn't this an anti-trust problem?
- thekyle 7y ago
  Given that lots of people use the SMS app that comes with their phone (which often isn't Android Messenger) I suspect it is more the case that if Google doesn't allow 3rd party apps to integrate then Google's RCS is doomed.
russellbeattie 7y ago
iMessage was launched in 2011. It's been 8 years and still no real solution for Android phones. RCS isn't encrypted, which is insane, and there's still massive infighting between carriers and Google. And even if RCS actually launches in the next year or so in the U.S., there's zero mention of iMessage interop (and zero interest from Apple), which means 45% of your contacts will still fall back to basic SMS/MMS. And who knows what the international situation will be like. This realistically means the current crazy messaging situation is going to remain for the next 5 to 10 years.
olliej 7y ago
Uh huh. “Upgrading” to plain text completely unencrypted data that can be monetized by google and carriers. A+.
xen2xen1 7y ago
And still no RCS support in Google Voice. Brilliant.
aitchnyu 7y ago
Would this work where mobile internet is slow or non existent? Would this break dependence on having Firebase as the power-efficicent centralized push system? Will this have delivery receipts? Can this be used as a transport for E2EE apps?

110 points by trimbo 7y ago

I am very curious how carriers will respond to Google deciding to preempt them by pushing an app update to redirect all text messaging straight to Google servers versus the carriers. Google seemed like it was respecting the carriers' involvement, right up until carriers announced plans to build their own RCS system that didn't give Google the data. Suddenly, Google is turning on RCS? Presumably Google was hoping it could convince carriers to pay Google to host their messaging platforms, and when Google lost that gamble, they decided they still wanted the data either way. This is the sort of coup I half-wonder if carriers would drop the Android platform over. (At the very least, I think four more large companies will be vocally supporting the DOJ's antitrust investigation.)

Mindwipe 7y ago
To be honest, I think they might find after it's turned on that the limitation to the Google Messages app (which is not the default on Samsung devices and hence represents very little in terms of market share) doesn't move the needle at all and makes very little difference. Certainly, the impact of turning it on on the UK market seems to have been zero. If Google follows through by enabling it system wide in future OS versions that might change a little, but Android being as it is that will take a long, long time, and the carriers probably suspect their own RCS implementations will have worked before then, or Whatsapp will just take over the US too and RCS will be dead.
- Avamander 7y ago
  I doubt Whatsapp will take over US too, the network effect is probably too strong for that to happen. For the same reason FB Messenger seems to still dominate some markets and Telegram others, even if theoretically Whatsapp could take both over because neighbouring countries are using them.
- kelnos 7y ago
  I do use the Google Messages app, but I don't plan to enable RCS any time soon. The main reason is that I use the "SMS Backup & Restore" app to back up my SMSes & MMSes, and it's unable to back up RCS messages because they're stored in a separate DB that currently has no system API access. So chalk that up as perhaps another reason why some people won't "upgrade".

calin2k 7y ago

phone are running android os isn't it? carriers still can roll their rcs on ios

ocdtrekkie 7y ago
Apple has shown no interest in supporting RCS, because the features it adds are basically akin to iMessage... which iPhones already have.
- Daniel_sk 7y ago
  And RCS has no support for E2E encryption, it would be actually a downgrade from iMessage.
  - umeshunni 7y ago
    Not for iOS users sending messages to Android users.

atonse 7y ago

Can anyone confirm the biggest issue (in my opinion) with RCS? It's not end-to-end encrypted. Update: Confirmed it myself [1]. End-to-end encryption is not even an option. Which is perfect for the data addicts like Google. But honestly I would never ever recommend this as an avenue for people to use over something like WhatsApp. [1]: https://www.theverge.com/2019/11/14/20964477/googles-rcs-chat-android-rollout-us-ccmi-texting-sms https://www.theverge.com/2019/11/14/20964477/googles-rcs-cha...

dannyw 7y ago
Meanwhile in the land of iMessage...
dmix 7y ago
Indeed, this seems to be needlessly kicking life back into SMS when it was already being replaced by better systems that respect privacy. Of course the decentralized nature of SMS is a good benefit but given how most telecoms are oligopolies disinterested in customers concerns about privacy (and plenty of other things like customer service) it pretty much defeats the value in it.
- pathartl 7y ago
  I wouldn't say needlessly. There's still something to be said for basic technologies that all devices can support.
  - dmix 7y ago
    Sure, agreed it's useful as a backbone sort of system like phones. Which will always be the biggest fundamental flaw with something like Signal or WhatsApp (the need for centralized servers, the requirement to install 3rd party software). There may be a role for these telecom services to exist perpetually as a backup services, while everyone still uses apps as their primary communication method. But RCS seems to be trying to bring SMS to parity with messaging apps supporting emoticons and media-heavy content, the intention is the same "conversations with friends" use-case as the messaging apps. There may even be an argument to keep SMS dumb and simple like phone lines. Especially if they aren't going to adopt encryption with the rest.

brenden2 7y ago

I've only got a cursory understanding of RCS, but in what way is this good for consumers? I can understand how it's good for Google, but aside from Google it's unclear how anyone benefits.

advisedwang 7y ago
New features vs SMS. Don't require customers to use silo'd apps (although I guess you could consider RCS a silo in itself)
xxpor 7y ago
MMS is literally the worst. But convincing people to switch to a different chat app in the US is a losing battle.
rectang 7y ago
> I've only got a cursory understanding of RCS Try `man rcs`. Heh. I hate name collisions.
- cameronbrown 7y ago
  Something something naming things.. ;)
- AWildC182 7y ago
  My first thought on seeing the post was "What do reaction control system have to do with android?"
throw7 7y ago
RCS was the next version of SMS from the telecoms. Of course, while sms was a defacto standard across carriers, RCS fragmented. They made it only work within your specific carrier with their own text app. This next RCS is a deriguer standard called RCS UniversalProfile. Google has pushed to get a wide group of carriers on board. It's been a long time, but it seems to be getting there...... maybe....

Daniel_sk 7y ago

The blue bubbles in the GIF example look exactly like iMessage on iOS, coincidence?

pb7 7y ago
No chance.
nacs 7y ago
Except unlike in iMessage where blue bubbles basically mean end-to-end encrypted messaging, Google's version is completely unencrypted.

Aghoree 7y ago

Can't wait for no one to use it ever

dang 7y ago
"Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

jlgaddis 7y ago

Is this basically an Android-only version of iMessages?

advisedwang 7y ago
Right now, yes, but without multi-device support. In theory Apple could join too and then it would work for everyone.
pathartl 7y ago
No, it's an industry agreed standard of an implementation similar to iMessage without end to end encryption. It was created by many of the carriers as an upgrade to SMS.
- notyourday 7y ago
  Without Apple supporting it this is not a messaging standard, rather it is another Google's fumble at creating a messaging app.
  - phh 7y ago
    It definitely is a standard, defined by 3GPP. Apple alone doesn't get to decide what is a standard. Google's Messaging app is just one implementation of the protocol. There are other implementations, that are actually used. Samsung have their own, some carriers have their own. It really is an ecosystem.
- wlesieutre 7y ago
  It's an industry standard, but if Apple doesn't implement it in iOS then it's only useable from one Android device to another. That effectively makes it into crappy iMessage for Android. Only works within one OS ecosystem, but it's unencrypted, managed by your carrier, and limited to the one cellular device itself instead of also working directly on your wifi-connected tablet and computer. It would be nice of Apple to support this if it's an improvement over SMS/MMS, but Apple drags their feet on supporting any sort of standards that they didn't create. And even some that they did (pour one out for OpenCL).

Causality1 7y ago

Those are nice features, but half the people I talk to use iOS so I'm not going to use any of them. Trying to remember who has what is too much hassle.

mrandish 7y ago

Let me see if I understand the strategic landscape around RCS correctly... * To the extent RCS: a) makes it easier for users to switch between mobile providers and keep advanced features that used to be offered for lock-in or more $$, or b) makes it easier for users to switch between the old SMS network and wifi - then, it's not good for mobile telco provider's business models. * To the extent RCS increases privacy for users (E2E encryption, etc) - then, it's not good for Google's business models. * To the extent it allows feature-rich messaging to work across ALL major platforms (Android, Web & iOS)- then, it's not good for Apple's platform lock-in. While I agree that an open, extensible, feature-rich, privacy-aware, cross-platform, cross-network messaging standard is highly desirable - is it correct that RCS (as currently formulated) is a non-starter and, from a strategic perspective, always was?

rusk 7y ago
I remember this the last time around, with MMS 20 years ago. It was a non-starter then and I’ve seen little this time around to give me confidence this will be different. The Google thing is a novel digression, but from where I’m sitting it looks like they’re just trying to fence off a section of the market for themselves and adding little else besides.
9nGQluzmnq3M 7y ago
RCS does not have end-to-end encryption. It has network level encryption, but so does SMS, and that means anybody on the operator side can decrypt it. https://www.thercsblog.com/2018/10/16/rcs-encryption-the-lowdown/ https://www.thercsblog.com/2018/10/16/rcs-encryption-the-low...

m-p-3 7y ago

No E2EE is a dealbreaker for me, no reason for me to use that or old-fashioned SMS.

JohnFen 7y ago

No, thanks. I really, really, really don't want SMS "upgraded" in this way. If I wanted something like RCS, I'd be using a messaging app. Here's hoping that everything remains compatible with old-school SMS.

barbs 7y ago
I'm the same. Use other messaging apps for E2EE and other advanced features, fall back to SMS of there's no data connection or to ensure compatibility with the person on the other end.
gowld 7y ago
Why use SMS instead of a messaging app? Why is the call network side channel the ideal cellular messaging protocol?
- JohnFen 7y ago
  The call network side is universal. Messaging apps aren't. It's really that simple for me. With SMS, I don't have to agree with the other parties about what app we're going to use. We can just exchange messages without a hassle. The only downside is the lack of encryption, but I can live with that. Another consideration, and this is why I'm resistant to RCS, is that I actively don't want all the bells and whistles that messaging apps have. All I want to do is be able to exchange short plain text messages.
  - deleted 7y ago
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- stonogo 7y ago
  There are people who do not want to install four hundred messaging apps. There are even people who do not want to install one messaging app. Calls and texts are included in phone plans, and despite Facebook's marketing, there are still more SMS users than Whatsapp users. There is no ideal cellular messaging protocol. People aren't going to change programs because some computer person is enamored with a specific encryption platform.

nkellenicki 7y ago

A couple of weeks ago AT&T, Verizon, Sprint, and T-Mobile announced that they had started working on their cross-provider RCS implementation - https://www.theverge.com/2019/10/24/20931202/us-carriers-rcs-cross-carrier-messaging-initiative-ccmi-att-tmobile-sprint-verizon https://www.theverge.com/2019/10/24/20931202/us-carriers-rcs... Does Google doing this essentially mean they've gotten sick of waiting for the carriers and decided to bypass them entirely? If so, the carriers can't be happy about that.

ocdtrekkie 7y ago
Google was trying to market Jibe as a service carriers could pay for to handle their RCS messaging for them. When carriers announced CCMI, they made it clear they weren't interested in paying for Jibe. https://jibe.google.com/jibe-platform/ https://jibe.google.com/jibe-platform/ Clearly, Google wants the data badly enough to provide said messaging services for free, and doesn't want carriers to keep the data to themselves. But they were hoping carriers would pay them and that they'd also get the data.

AcerbicZero 7y ago

There was a time when I really thought Google was going to shake things up. Nexus Phones, Google Fiber, Google Fi, etc all sounded awesome. I bought a Nexus 5, switched to Fi, went through the super fun process of mixing around my google voice numbers, (breaking all kinds of stuff) but eventually I was mostly setup and functional. I'd lost some core parts of gVoice, but I figured it was just a matter of time before it was back up to a similar level. Having Hangouts as a full featured SMS/Voice/MMS replacement, which also let you do all of those things from your computer was an awesome experience. GV features like Spam filter wasn't supported with Fi, and just accessing your GV account with a Fi subscription on your google account was difficult. Then they split SMS/Hangouts (although Fi users were somewhat grandfathered in), which broke basically every text convo I had going on, and made it more difficult to text Hangout friends compared with SMS only friends. Then they rolled back the gVoice/Fi plans, and made it clear that Hangouts was going away, and gVoice wasn't going to be an option. Then the Nexus phones started to get worse instead of better. The 6P was mediocre at best, and "Stock" Android was starting to make compromises, while somehow getting worse. The Pixels have continued this trend of decline, Hangouts can't really even send Gifs anymore (size limit of like, 3mb or something) Fi has made almost no progress, and when Hangouts goes away I'll be retiring the last of my Android devices. Kind of a long rant, but my point is I don't trust google to do anything competent in this space, and even if they did, I wouldn't trust them not to fuck it up 6 months later.

dmead 7y ago
I guess you're on apple stuff then? my nexus 6 just broke and im on an old 5x thats barely funtional. the pixels all look atrocious with no end in sight.
- abawany 7y ago
  The pixel 3a has been a pretty nice device at a good price (299 with Google Fi - you can cancel the latter after one day and still keep the discount according to their reps). It is a mid-range device though.
- Daniel_sk 7y ago
  The 5X is probably the worst Nexus ever, it was a low end device that is so frustrating to use that it probably made many people to switch to iPhone :-).

bonerpolizei 7y ago

I'm guessing this is what borked names being attached in SMS Hangouts chat in Gmail. Anyone else having this issue?

pilom 7y ago
Yep, just noticed that today as well.

iamaelephant 7y ago

This is very exciting for the 8 people still using SMS I suppose.

berns 7y ago
That's an exaggeration, there are still 8 countries not using Whatsapp or WeChat.
grzte 7y ago
Counterpoint here: all the SMS messages I receive are just 2fa messages. Everybody is on whatsapp
JohnFen 7y ago
Literally everyone I know uses SMS. Some of those people also use other messaging apps, but they use SMS as well.
qntty 7y ago
I must have missed the memo
mrweasel 7y ago
That's very depend on country, and user segment. You'll read stories like "You must have Whatsapp to communicate in Europe", but in countries like Denmark, it's just SMS (unless you're on an iPhone that will automatically use iMessage). For my circles of friends and family it's either SMS or iMessage and iMessage is only because most people don't realise that it's not SMS. I am a little confused as to why they don't simple sneak RCS in, like Apple have done with iMessage. Just upgrade the users to RCS if available and fallback to SMS if not.
etaioinshrdlu 7y ago
I'm a 20 something in tech circles in the West Coast of the US and I use SMS at least some of the time to communicate with: * Brother * Mother * Father * Uncle 1 * Uncle 2 * Roommate 1 * Roommate 2 * Friend of roommate * Cousin * Business partner All of that is in just the last week. SMS is the first messaging system softened mentioned when meeting new people. Because it's a lowest common demoninator. Why am I not cool enough to hang out with Whatsapp-using people? Joking....

vinvin 7y ago

How is there not an uproar over the lack of E2E encryption? With all the headlines lately around Cambridge Analytica and Snowden and Facebook - who in their right mind is okay with letting Google read their text messages? It's insane.

codedokode 7y ago

Isn't RCS invented to let mobile carriers take back the market of mobile messaging from messengers like Telegram or Whatsapp? There will be no encryption, it won't work without Internet and users can be charged for every message. Of course, no sane person will want to use it so Google will have to add something that will be available only to RCS and not to other messengers.

jbredeche 7y ago

I have a Pixel 3XL on Google Fi. Every time I try to enable Chat Features on Messages, it just grays out on "Setting up ...". If I try too many times in a day, it locks me out for 24 hours. If Google can't figure out how to make it work _on their own phone carrier_, I really do not have much hope for Android's messaging strategy.

Aaronstotle 7y ago

New protocol in 2019 with no support for encryption, this is not acceptable.

DaiPlusPlus 7y ago
If it was encrypted then adoption in most of the rest of the world would go nowhere. SMS isn’t encrypted either - but this is still an upgrade.
kbenson 7y ago
The protocol is from 2008. None of the carriers were getting around to supporting it (since it's federates to AT&T and Verizon have to have their own servers that talk to each other), so Google is publishing a "universal profile" so Android can talk to Android at least. This is really just Google kicking the carriers kicking and screaming into 2010 level technology. As a standalone protocol, it's not great. As an upgrade to SMS it's long overdue.

awill 7y ago

RCS has completely blown up in Google's face. They should have just copied Apple and created gMessage

toast0 7y ago
They did: Google Talk/gChat, Hangouts, Allo, Duo, Wave (I think it did messaging, I don't really know). There's probably more I forgot. Google Talk notably supported tons of mobile platforms and was XMPP based and had federation, before they started down their path of reinventing messaging over and over.
- tuxracer 7y ago
  Sure they created a lot of apps but they never replicated THE key feature of iMessage which is seamless SMS fallback within the same app. You don't have to even think about "Oh this person doesn't use such and such app" Allo came the closest but messages sent to phone numbers not on Allo were sent through some proxy number so the recipient ended up getting the message as from some random google phone number. RCS is the closest Google has ever come to the effortlessness of iMessage in terms of having a single app you can message anyone with, and incidentally there are some benefits if the other person is using a compatible app but regardless the message will get through (and from your number) one way or another.
  - hocuspocus 7y ago
    > Sure they created a lot of apps but they never replicated THE key feature of iMessage which is seamless SMS fallback within the same app. You don't have to even think about "Oh this person doesn't use such and such app" To be fair, while Google certainly could have had a better strategy, replicating Apple's would probably have been a failure. For several reasons, iMessage's success is very US-centric. SMS fall-back is really not an option in countries where unlimited SMS isn't the norm. Google should have tried harder to acquire Whatsapp, or at least grab another big fish in this space (like Viber). RCS is going to benefit carriers more than Google, since they might claim back some of the IM traffic. Google realizes it can at least try to control the app (Messages) which will be deployed to most low and mid-range Android phones, that are running stock or close to stock Android.

awill 7y ago

I use PulseSMS. Unless Google quickly allows third party apps to integrate, third party apps are all doomed. Isn't this an anti-trust problem?

thekyle 7y ago
Given that lots of people use the SMS app that comes with their phone (which often isn't Android Messenger) I suspect it is more the case that if Google doesn't allow 3rd party apps to integrate then Google's RCS is doomed.

russellbeattie 7y ago

iMessage was launched in 2011. It's been 8 years and still no real solution for Android phones. RCS isn't encrypted, which is insane, and there's still massive infighting between carriers and Google. And even if RCS actually launches in the next year or so in the U.S., there's zero mention of iMessage interop (and zero interest from Apple), which means 45% of your contacts will still fall back to basic SMS/MMS. And who knows what the international situation will be like. This realistically means the current crazy messaging situation is going to remain for the next 5 to 10 years.

olliej 7y ago

Uh huh. “Upgrading” to plain text completely unencrypted data that can be monetized by google and carriers. A+.

xen2xen1 7y ago

And still no RCS support in Google Voice. Brilliant.

aitchnyu 7y ago

Would this work where mobile internet is slow or non existent? Would this break dependence on having Firebase as the power-efficicent centralized push system? Will this have delivery receipts? Can this be used as a transport for E2EE apps?