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I'm astonished and pleased to see they walked back the two worst things about the original Touch Bar MBPs - the lack of a physical Escape key, and the full-size

I'm astonished and pleased to see they walked back the two worst things about the original Touch Bar MBPs - the lack of a physical Escape key, and the full-size left and right arrow keys. The lack of physical function keys remains regrettable, and the Touch Bar is still no worthy substitute, but perhaps this is a sign that Apple is finally interested in listening to feedback from its long-term customer base, even if that feedback conflicts with the design team's desires.

htk 7y ago
I feel the same. The stubbornness of Apple that was so frustrating is a bit more flexible now, paying attention to "subtle" feedback like the arrow key's sizes.
- gigatexal 7y ago
  We devs are so conservative. It's ridiculous. Nobody allows Apple to innovate.
  - Someone1234 7y ago
    Apple can innovate as much as they wish. For example put the touchbar above the keyboard or below the LCD. Nobody is complaining about the TouchID on the power button for example, since that maintains its core purpose. People are complaining because 30+ year old keys they rely on to do their professional work were removed to add arguably a gimmick with a worse user experience/no touch feedback.
    - theklr 7y ago
      Just like people complained when they dropped floppy and and PS/2 for CDs and USB? Or when they introduced a smartphone with no physical keyboard? Anecdotes don't make it fact.
      - llampx 7y ago
        You can see the difference in reactions to know that it wasn't wanted or desired by the target market. Its not anecdotes anymore, its data which we've had 3 years to accumulate.
        foldr 7y ago
        I don't think there is a difference in reactions. A vocal minority complain every time Apple changes anything. Lots of people complained about the chiclet keyboard when the 2008 Macbook Pro came out. And shipping a computer without a floppy drive or a PS/2 port seemed crazy to many people at the time.
        matt4077 7y ago
        Oh, don't underestimate the longevity of the no-floppy and especially the no-ethernet complainers. Just as one data point: there are non-ironic gripes about those decisions in this very thread.
  - rurp 7y ago
    Change for the sake of change isn't innovation, it's a waste of time. Spending hours fiddling with a dysfunctional keyboard that breaks after a week of normal use or has a gimmicky non-standard layout is not how I want to spend my finite time and mental energy.
- Someone1234 7y ago
  It may be "flexible" or their hand was forced. I know, personally, at least half a dozen people who have either delayed a Macbook purchased or outright moved to PC alternatives (e.g. XPS 13, Surface Laptop) because of the poor keyboard (both reliability and touchbar). Now six people isn't statistically significant, but if that trend mirrors a wider one it could be costing Apple a measurable amount. The real question is will this be enough to satisfy e.g. programmers that actually want to bind the F keys to build/clean/run/step over/etc?
  - bluedino 7y ago
    They'll go right back, don't worry.
    - Someone1234 7y ago
      Go back to what? They already haven't purchased a new Macbook in five or more years, that money is already lost to Apple. All Apple can do is try to get them for their next upgrade.
    - CydeWeys 7y ago
      I don't think I am.
    - x0x0 7y ago
      Why is that bad? Apple for once listened to feedback and made corresponding changes; what's wrong with saying k, thanks, great?
  - saberience 7y ago
    I've just ordered my first Windows laptop ever, literally. Dell XPS 13 (6 core model). I've been using Macbook Pros solely since the original Aluminium model when Apple moved to Intel processors. Apple's apparent hubris and inability to go back on their design decisions (Touch Bar...) has just pushed me over the edge. I've been using my mid 2015 Macbook Pro and hopefully waiting for them to release a new MBP ideally without the touch or move the trackpad down/make it smaller, and have the Touchbar PLUS physical function keys (which I use for programming). So yeah... "Pro" users at least in my case (and some friends) are moving away from Apple.
- mschaef 7y ago
  It takes a long time to get a design through the point of manufacture... especially at that scale. And even before that happens, an organization needs to admit that it has to happen in the first place. For everybody saying the keyboard sucked and needed improvement, there were at least a few people within Apple that had staked something on the design as it was.
  - ianai 7y ago
    And yet, I don’t think I’ll upgrade solely because of the touchbar. It’s horrible.
    - mschaef 7y ago
      I've had a touchbar machine as my primary for a couple years now and essentially don't use the touchbar. But I didn't use f-keys all that much either. I think there are some software improvement that could maybe make it better, but I'm not sure better enough to be compelling.
      - nicoburns 7y ago
        How easy is changing the volume with the touch bar. I use the function keys for that all the time.
        saagarjha 7y ago
        You slide on the virtual key.
        mschaef 7y ago
        I mentioned you in a peer post that you might not otherwise notice. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21529637 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21529637
        saagarjha 7y ago
- bluedino 7y ago
  Follow the money. It was cheaper to stick with that design for 3 iterations than it was to change it.
dashwav 7y ago
The escape key will be especially welcome by me, as I found the touchbar exceptionally hard to deal with, and I would often have to hit it three or four times to get vim to exit insert mode. I actually didn't have much trouble with the arrow keys, despite all the negative feedback I saw for them online. Hopefully this trend continues and they can iterate on this model even further.
- crusso 7y ago
  I remapped caps lock to escape and it's been wonderful. The oversized caps lock key on keyboards is an inexplicably bad UI choice anyway.
  - Tsiklon 7y ago
    Personally I find a classic Unix layout to work best for me. I’ve mapped the caps lock key to CTRL. I use that far more than I ever use caps, it feels quite natural to me after about a week or two of adjustment.
    - PascLeRasc 7y ago
      You can use Karabiner Elements to configure your Caps Lock to act as Ctrl when held down, and escape when tapped alone. Best of both worlds.
      - matttb 7y ago
        In addition to this you can do something like mapping Shift+Caps Lock to be an actual Caps Lock toggle. Now you get 3 buttons for one and it works amazingly well.
      - darkteflon 7y ago
        This was a revelation when I discovered it earlier this year. I could never go back now, it’s so convenient.
  - DogLover_ 7y ago
systemtest 7y ago
They also brought back the 100 watt-hour battery
- dublin 7y ago
  Who cares about Watt-hours? What matters is how long it runs - I'd be perfectly happy with a laptop that runs a month on a 1.5 Watt-hour AAA battery. Kinda like Amps for vacuum cleaners, this can actually be a measure of INefficiency.
  - corywright 7y ago
    The TSA cares.
spuz 7y ago
I have never used them, but what is wrong with the full-sized left and right arrow keys?
- throwanem 7y ago
  They're hard to locate by touch. Seems counter-intuitive, maybe, but I'm sure I won't be alone in attesting from experience that it does make a difference.
- wtallis 7y ago
  It's much harder to blindly tell where in the arrow key cluster your finger has landed without the blank spaces of the inverted T layout.
  - dpkonofa 7y ago
    I do not understand this at all as the break in between the up/down arrow keys is far more apparent to touch than even the bump on the F key that's supposed to allow you to blindly return to the home keys. If that little bump works, how can a full break not be working for you?
    - saagarjha 7y ago
      A full-height arrow key is almost identical to the key next to it.
      - dkonofalski 7y ago
        That depends on which key you're referring to. On the Macbook, the left arrow key is right next to the up/down half-keys. If you touch to the right and you're hitting another full key, you're not at the arrow key. Again, I don't understand how the bump on the F key works but somehow the giant dip in between the two up/down keys is the problem...?
        saagarjha 7y ago
Zenst 7y ago
When it comes to function keys, you either use them lots or rarely and for the former, yes - a physical key is prefered by far. However I see the advantages in other situations with the touchbar, however it would be great if the users had a choice. How hard would it be to have the touchbar in a modular design form that was user changeable and they could fit a row of keys instead? However, there is always the option of an external keyboard. But then you end up carrying even more peripherals that you end up with a really thin light laptop and a second bag with all the adapters to enable to you to use the laptop in the way you want. For some it does feel like you got sold an electric sports car, yet end up having to tow a caravan about to carry all the spare batteries and other accessories you had in your previous car. But certainly an opportunity to embrace modular design and allow the end user to customize in a way that has benefits and would win over pundits. EDIT [spelling and fat finger W's]
- ghaff 7y ago
  >WHen it comes to function keys, you either use them lots or rarely and for the former, yes - a physical key is prefered by far. Yeah, I used function keys all the time back in the DOS days. These days, it's mostly to change sound volume. To your broader point though, modularity can be tough. It inherently adds bulk and cost. And, now, you have connectors that can/will fail.
- JonathonW 7y ago
  We have a modular laptop in our office-- it's a Dell Precision, and practically everything in the machine's serviceable and replaceable (complete with a detailed service manual, provided by Dell). Replaceable, externally accessible disk drives, replaceable RAM, replaceable modular keyboard, even (IIRC) a socketed processor. The catch is that all that modularity makes the thing massive-- the thing's a good 2-3 inches thick (with lid closed) and weighs nearly 8 pounds. It looks like what you'd get if you took a '90s-era laptop chassis, stretched it to modern screen proportions, and stuck modern innards inside. It's just not practical unless it's going to spend all its time sitting on a desk, and that begs the question of why you wouldn't just buy a desktop in the first place.
  - 7y ago
dvcrn 7y ago
I like the Touch Bar a lot. Not having esc was the only gripe I had with it but I personally much prefer the multifunctional bar over some static f keys
- input_sh 7y ago
  I'm curious, do you usually blind type? If so, what advantage does it bring to you to look down on your keys? Also, in an optimal seating position (elbows at 90 degrees), do your fingers obscure the visibility of the touch bar?
  - pcr910303 7y ago
    Not parent, but I'm also a user that likes the Touch Bar (see comment history). To answer, > Do you usually blind type? Yes. > If so, what advantage does it bring to you to look down on your keys? For simple actions (like opening a new tab) there is no need to look down on keys. IMO this is little Apple's fault, whenever I use a tabbable & Touch Bar-usable application I set the new tab button on the right. I usually place the trash button (on Finder, Mail and some other apps) on the middle of the Touch Bar. For some more complex actions (like selecting an emoji/suggestion, or moving between photos, etc...) it's just as fast/faster to glance over and move your fingers instead of using shortcuts/trackpad. > Also, in an optimal seating position (elbows at 90 degrees) I'm not sure if I'm in optimal seating position, but... (If you're meaning if my elbows are on the same height of the display yes) > do your fingers obscure the visibility of the touch bar? No, not at all. I can clearly see the Touch Bar whether my fingers are.
    - samastur 7y ago
      Is there an app on Mac that does not support clover-T for new tabs?
      - pcr910303 7y ago
        No, but I frequently find it easier to reach the Touch Bar (where only one finger needs to move) than to press Cmd-T (where two fingers need to move). I also use Cmd-T a lot too! :-)
calbear81 7y ago
I’m sure someone has suggested this at some point but why not physical keys with an lcd underneath each key? This would allow those keys to be fully customizable and be worthy of the “Pro” designation.
- mschaef 7y ago
  Or even both the touchbar and the physical keys on the pro models? 7-row keyboards are a thing.
- CydeWeys 7y ago
  How about e-ink instead? Having 100 individual LCDs seems like it's be energy expensive. The problem with both of these is they'd just be expensive, period. And solving a problem I don't often have.
- bszupnick 7y ago
  Reminds me of a phone I used to have: https://gizmodo.com/samsung-alias-2-e-ink-flip-phone-review-5251232 https://gizmodo.com/samsung-alias-2-e-ink-flip-phone-review-... The keyboard was fully E-ink, so it changed based on the app or orientation of your phone. It was pretty awesome!
- journalctl 7y ago
  Because it’s expensive, bulky, and unnecessary. Something like this already exists: the Optimus Maximus keyboard. And while it’s a cool concept, it’s not without its rough edges. [1] [1] https://www.artlebedev.com/optimus/maximus/ https://www.artlebedev.com/optimus/maximus/
  - Cthulhu_ 7y ago
    Wasn't the Maximus made with tech that is now 10 years old? I can imagine that costs have decreased by at least an order of magnitude by now, now that oled is much more mainstream.
  - antonyh 7y ago
    I wanted one of these when I first spotted it, but in hindsight it would be too dependent on software to work and I'd probably end up spending ages setting it up when the right thing to do would be to get blank key caps.
insta_anon 7y ago
Agreed, as long as I am forced to use the TouchBar, it personally for me is not "the world’s best pro notebook".
- theklr 7y ago
  Could there be more pros than you?
  - insta_anon 7y ago
    Sure, but besides a very low number of comments on HN I've never seen anyone who really appreciated the TouchBar (and the increased price it causes). Say Apple would offer a model with and without TouchBar and the TouchBar model would cost $400 more, how many people would be willing to pay that? I bet it would be less than 5%, maybe even less than 1%.
- briandear 7y ago
  What is your job? Just curious how pro you really are.
- Izmaki 7y ago
  For shuffling VMs it's really helpful.
- dylan604 7y ago
  Forget being forced to use it, I'd like to not be forced to pay for it. How much does the price of the MBP go up because of all of the parts required for the touch bar?
stopadvertising 7y ago
It's funny how stubbornly arrogant Apple is, they could have taken over a huge swath of PC/workstation market share if they had undone these bad decisions years ago. They don't really care, they are a phone company now, I get it, but still. The arrogance is astounding.
tsss 7y ago
So the keyboard guaranteed to break within the first 6 months on a 3k laptop is not among the worst two things?
Reason077 7y ago
> "the two worst things about the original Touch Bar MBPs - the lack of a physical Escape key, and the full-size left and right arrow keys." The "butterfly mechanism" keyboards are awful, unreliable, and get worse with time, so I'm very glad to see them go. Likewise, the return of the physical Escape key is very welcome. But honestly, the design of the arrow keys has never bothered me in the slightest. If anything, the present configuration is slightly better because it's aesthetically cleaner and gives you a larger surface to hit the left and right arrows.
- stetrain 7y ago
  But when not looking at the keyboard, having full height left and right arrow keys makes them feel just like the nearby Option and ? keys. Having a distinct arrow-key-group shape makes them easier to locate by touch.
  - dpkonofa 7y ago
    You can't feel the break in between the up/down arrow keys by touch?
    - geerlingguy 7y ago
      It's not always easy. If I need to quickly move to the arrow keys (I touch type, so no looking!), I have about 80-85% success finding the right key on the first press... with the inverted-T layout, that's about 99%. There's something weird about the way my brain handles the key being the same size as the option key next to it, and the fact that the tops of all those keys are exactly the same.
      - nicpottier 7y ago
        If you touch type then learn the OS X shortcuts of CTRL-B, CTRL-F, CTRL-P, CTRL-N, far more efficient than moving your hand over to the arrow keys and works in (virtually) all places you are editing text.
adrr 7y ago
Escape key issue was so bad that a lot of my devs mapped caps lock to the escape key. Butterfly keyboard also has some weird workarounds with people carrying around mechanical keyboard.
- geerlingguy 7y ago
  To be fair, mapping caps to escape has been a thing for years and years. I started doing that once I learned vim about five years back, when I still had an older MacBook Air with a physical escape key.
pwthornton 7y ago
The touchbar has a lot of uses for many people. Developers may not see that much benefit from it (unless they use a native IDE or text editor), but for people who use native apps, the touchbar can be really useful. Getting a physical escape key back and going with a more reliable keyboard design are big wins.
trymas 7y ago
I wonder if the screen reflective coating is better too. AFAIK, since introduction of retina screens of MacBooks (2012) it's a matter of time that the reflective coating will start to peel off and will leave ugly blotches.
- theklr 7y ago
  This seems highly anecdotal. I have a launch 2012 retina still with no peeling.
  - trymas 7y ago
    I guess, though anyone I knew who used retina macbooks had issue with screen peeling off within 1-3 years of use. There was a replacement program for a bit, so there was a possibility to change the screen, though after some time changed screens are peeling off too. I know even an anecdote where almost brand new 2016 rmbp after working outside, had a spots of peeled off coating, because apparently light dust have scratched it. Thankfully Apple replaced the screen.
    - bschwindHN 7y ago
      I wonder if it has any correlation with people who close the lid but continue running heavy workloads on their machine. The extra heat could possibly be a cause for delamination.
      - nikisweeting 7y ago
        Nah, I see it on student laptops all the time (who aren't running anything with the lid off). Also not correlated to putting pressure on the lid with it closed, I've lugged mine around in a backpack full of stuff for years and have no peeling issues.
- theslurmmustflo 7y ago
  There was a recall for this delamination issue in earlier MBPs. I think even the last generation didn't have this problem anymore.
sneak 7y ago
> perhaps this is a sign that Apple is finally interested in listening to feedback from its long-term customer base What makes you think they stopped? You know it takes a couple years to design and ship hardware at this level (as well as to design the production lines to be able to build a few million more copies), yes? It’s not like a web app where they can change, test, PR, and deploy in a few days or weeks or months. There is a lot of preproduction work that goes into building the kind of objects Apple is now famous for and are almost taken for granted.
Retric 7y ago
What I really don’t get is the Touch Bar could just sit in between the number keys and function keys. Even on 13” models there is space for both and a giant touch pad. They have been forced to add it to just about every model to keep people from downgrading to avoid the thing. Which ok saved me money, but I would expect this to get the point across.
- timfrietas 7y ago
  I'd want the touch bar to sit on top of the function keys, but I agree. I also would be much happier if it was just easier to turn it off or if it at least made each touch action take 200ms or so so that I don't accidentally hit it all the time.
daveheq 7y ago
How 'bout a full-size up and down key? I use those all the time and those scrunched keys are easy to make mistakes on.
- GloriousKoji 7y ago
  The touch pad is ridiculously huge now, going by my greasy finger smears I maybe use only 50% of the total area. They could easy sacrifice some of that real estate to put the touchbar as row above the function keys and feature a full size set of offset arrow keys.
  - duderific 7y ago
    Agree, I often end up brushing the touch pad accidentally with the heel of my hand while typing, and inadvertently moving the cursor somewhere up the page. Maybe someone else can weigh in on any advantages to having such a large touch pad.
    - 1123581321 7y ago
      You can drag further with it or use it at a higher sensitivity and drag as much as you used to. There are also more places you can start dragging so it’s more likely you will naturally touch your finger down and start dragging.
starbugs 7y ago
I predict that from now on the touch bar will slowly become smaller and smaller until it disappears completely. It would have been better if they'd gotten rid of it entirely in one iteration though.
- Izmaki 7y ago
  I like it. It helps me control my music, volume and VMs all at once without having to bother with windows or holding down key modifiers
  - starbugs 7y ago
    Yeah me too, but I don't like accidentally touching something and then being out of context. Also happens with the gigantic track pad. It's really annoying.
reaperducer 7y ago
I was sorta kinda OK with the missing escape key. For me the biggest keyboard improvement is a return to the inverted-T arrow layout.
throw0101a 7y ago
> ... the lack of a physical Escape key, and the full-size left and right arrow keys. Seems that if you scream hard enough AAPL listens: > What Apple emphasized is simply that they listened to the complaints from professional MacBook users. They recognized how important the Escape key is to developers — they even mentioned Vim by name during a developer tool demo. * https://daringfireball.net/2019/11/16-inch_macbook_pro_first_impressions https://daringfireball.net/2019/11/16-inch_macbook_pro_first...
woah 7y ago
I almost never use the function keys and I am a programmer. They made the right call on that one. Just because you use an editor that makes use of rarely used keys doesn’t mean that they are a universal truth.
- LocalPCGuy 7y ago
  Do you debug and use the keys to control it? This is my biggest gripe, since most IDEs (and browsers if web dev) map debugging to the Fn keys, so I end up using them a LOT. I hate clicking the debugging icons, particularly since I tend to use a few different editors/browsers and they are all in different spots.
  - Jako33 7y ago
    First thing that comes to mind when mentioning the Fn keys is debugging, however I always found that is feels unintuitive to use and would be eager to change my habits to learn more intuitive shortcuts.
  - saagarjha 7y ago
    I remap those almost immediately :(
papln 7y ago
It took 3 years for Apple to quietly acknowledge those mistakes.
- TMWNN 7y ago
  Jony Ive leaving the company a few months ago is not a coincidence.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
anewguy9000 7y ago
those were not the worst things. a keyboard that breaks a week after you get it was the worst thing. the second worse thing is this redefinition of a computer into a big ipad. where does my sd card go? i cant plugin to the hdmi tv at a friends or a board room? why does it have a headphone jack? if we dont need it on our phone why do we need it on a laptop (lol)? oh yeah because inch by inch... apple is the epitome of capitalism, good and bad, and lately more bad than good.
- nordsieck 7y ago
  > where does my sd card go? i cant plugin to the hdmi tv at a friends or a board room? Apple has a long and storied history of removing drives and ports that it considers obsolete. No one should be surprised at this point.
  - egwor 7y ago
    I have to say that I agree with the parent post. I specifically haven't upgraded because: 1. no hdmi 2. no sd 3. escape key 4. keyboard 5. magsafe 6. usb a I admit that maybe #6 is a little Luddite-like but there will be too many leads around which are usb-a which I'll need to use an adapter on. Right now, this is genuinely annoying that I need to carry around all these adapters which all cost quite a lot each. Talking to one of my colleagues who has one of the 13" macbooks. He said that you just changed to be more careful about the lack of magsafe. Maybe I'll learn? For HDMI. This is dumb for everyone who will ever have to do a presentation. For SD. Tre-annoying, since my camera is usb-a. So I have to be $30 for an sd card reader. Yet another adapter. Maybe someone should do some photos of a laptop with all the leads hanging off?! Then the designers might appreciate that it looks crap and do something about it.... Conclusion: you buy the MacBook Pro with max memory; upgrade the graphics card (why not... it isn't that much); up the disk size; buy a usb c adapter; buy a hdmi adapter; buy a sd card reader; buy a lightning cable converter too. That totals $5000. Ouch.
    - killjoywashere 7y ago
      > He said that you just changed to be more careful about the lack of magsafe. Maybe I'll learn? Having magsafe on my retina MacBook, with little kids in the house, may have been the best leisure hack I've ever enjoyed. The hack came from lack of anxiety about the kids tripping over the cord and bringing the laptop crashing to the floor, enabling me to simply set the machine down, walk away, and play with the kids instead. Now I would have to put the laptop somewhere out-of-sight in order for it to charge.
heavyset_go 7y ago
> I'm astonished and pleased to see they walked back the two worst things about the original Touch Bar MBPs Apple still hasn't walked back on mandatory notarization on Catalina. In January 2020, they're removing the option to run software that isn't locally compiled or notarized[1]. [1] https://developer.apple.com/news/?id=09032019a https://developer.apple.com/news/?id=09032019a
- prewett 7y ago
  I believe that is not correct, you can still run unsigned apps, you just have to enable them in System Preferences >> Security and Privacy. https://www.howtogeek.com/443611/how-macos-catalinas-new-security-features-work/ https://www.howtogeek.com/443611/how-macos-catalinas-new-sec... (middle of page)
  - saagarjha 7y ago
    Or secondary click on them and open them from the menu that pops up.
- lostgame 7y ago
  Worst is certainly removal of 32-bit support. I'll personally never be using anything past Mojave. It would literally cost me from purchased software that is now incompatible and will not be updated. To say Apple has lost its way would be an understatement. Apple is actively detrimenting those who have stayed in its ecosystem for decades. As a professional audio engineer, I refuse to lose several of my plugins to a quote-unquote 'upgrade.' If I lose access to my software, you are not 'upgrading' my OS, you are removing access to what worked perfectly before. I also refuse to lose Adobe CS6, by which I've paid a full license for. No, I have no interest in updates. I had no interest in updates post-CS3, to be honest. There is no benefit to the lack of 32-bit support that could be worth losing it. If they did this because they're moving to ARM, fuck them. Don't let your behind the scenes process fuck with my day-to-day ability to work. I'm literally going to have to leave behind my career as an iOS developer - I refuse by principle to purchase new Apple products ('vote with your money') - and I certainly refuse to accept an 'upgrade' that annihilates the usability of some of my most important software, in the name of...what? What possible benefit does removing 32-bit support lend to the customer? None. It's literally just a fuck you to me for supporting them for years. What a damn shame.
georgebarnett 7y ago
Touchbar doesn’t make sense until you install something like Pock.Dev. After doing that, it’s useful.
- waylandsmithers 7y ago
  I was skeptical too, but some apps have found really great ways to use it: - Mute/unmute on skype - Preview and switcher for a number of slides at a time in powerpoint - Mirror displays / extend desktop when connected to an external display
wwweston 7y ago
It turns out that people who buy laptops -- a mobile-ish form factor differentiated from a tablet by its keyboard -- might really really care about keyboards as the main interface between user and device. I'd concluded that Apple didn't really think much of laptops anymore, and had simply moved on to caring more about other form factors: it seemed a logical conclusion if one assumed that people at Apple were in fact competent. This shows some real care regarding laptops as a form factor and puts them back in the running for a lot of buyers, including me. But there's still one major issue that I don't see people talking much about -- the way that Apple's decisions regarding storage (namely soldering it to the board AND making it so that there's no way to access it in the event of a logic board failure) increases consumer risk as well as decreasing consumer choice: https://www.notebookcheck.net/Apple-removes-the-Customer-Data-Migration-Tool-connector-in-the-the-2018-MacBook-Pro-with-Touch-Bar.318186.0.html https://www.notebookcheck.net/Apple-removes-the-Customer-Dat... It increases risk of data loss. That's a choice that impacts the day-to-day experience much less than the keyboard, which explains why the keyboard has gotten much more attention, and it really is nice that a company arguably built on attention to experience returned to that aspect of it. But this kind of choice makes a huge difference in a moment of failure, and it's at least equally user-hostile, especially in a product bearing the name "pro" where data recovery can be a matter of business continuity. I suppose that one can argue a responsible professional will be using network and external backups (and of course all responsible professionals worth considering or selling anything to will do this, right?), and so this isn't necessary, and Apple's thing (wise or unwise) is that they frequently reconsider and eliminate things that aren't crucial. But redundancy in some areas is wise, and I can't see what they think eliminating both removability AND emergency direct access when it come to storage actually buys them. Even if one assumes it's a lock-in action for service, it makes the actual service more difficult and costly. I'm liking the keyboard correction. I just bought a 2014 MBP to replace an older failing MBP, so I'm not in the market for something else for a year or two, but when that comes up, I'll be seriously looking at the 16" as an option. And this will be what I'm thinking about.
- catalogia 7y ago
  Maybe somebody at Apple got the idea that telling more users "Sorry, your data is gone forever, no way to get it back." increases user perception of device security (that it's hard to get your data off your device; if Apple can't do it then criminals can't either.) I'd rather have FDE on a removable drive, but perhaps the typical user doesn't really have a clear mental picture of what's going on.
CelestialTeapot 7y ago
Other than still selling the Touch Bar as something we want, I'm somewhat pleased, myself. But I am still unhappy about the keyboard. Perhaps it may be better (a mote of dust won't immediately clog it?), but a 1mm travel is still a 1mm travel: rather abrupt. The drive to continually reduce thickness has to be reversed. I want a good experience with all aspects of a device's usage, that includes the physical human-computer interface.
hinkley 7y ago
If you look closely, not only is there a physical escape key, there's a physical fingerprint key, and the touch bar is also elevated. You still might not to be able to use the touch bar without looking at it, but at least you can find it without looking at it. I was half expecting them to use haptics on the touch bar. Still no luck there.
- stefco_ 7y ago
  When the touchbar first came out, I thought we'd see haptics in the second iteration. It seems so obvious that pressure-sensitivity and haptics could mitigate a lot of the weaknesses of the touchbar. What I really miss is upgradeable RAM and SSD. Still using a 2010 MBP because I was able to upgrade it; that's no longer possible.
godelski 7y ago
> the lack of a physical Escape key C-[ is the same thing in Unix. I haven't tried it on a Mac though. But if you're using vim (mostly where I hear this complaint) use C-[ (actually just use it in vim anyways because who wants to lift their hand up to do such a common movement?)
- stingrae 7y ago
  I just map caps lock to escape, then i need even less finger movement.
  - woadwarrior01 7y ago
    They even made it super simple to remap caps-lock to escape in OSX Sierra (the release of which, probably coincided with the release of the first Touch Bar MacBook Pro). You can do it from System Preferences, without any extra software like Karabiner. Although, I still use Karabiner Elements for some more complex keyboard remapping.
  - godelski 7y ago
    I don't understand this binding (it is a common one). I don't want a 50/50 shot of having caps lock on (or my light indicator). I'm also a fan of keeping things as vanilla as possible (I do use plenty of plugins and stuff, but almost every problem you have vim solves natively)
    - matt4077 7y ago
      With Karabiner, I never have such issues. Caps Lock becomes a normal key. The light is never on. Caps are never. actually locked. It's a key that's drastically oversized compared to it's barely measurable amount of regular use.
    - audunw 7y ago
      > I don't want a 50/50 shot of having caps lock on (or my light indicator). What? Have you tried this feature at all? If you map Esc to Caps Lock in Mac OS, the light indicator never turns on, and you don't enable caps lock when you press that key. Or do you mean that this is what'll happen if you use a different computer? In my experience that's not a problem at all. Muscle-memory can be made context sensitive. I use two different keyboard layouts (dvorak and qwerty), two different key arrangements (staggered on my laptop, grid on ErgoDox), Esc mapped to Caps-Lock on my home laptop, completely different key mappings on my ErgoDox at work, and still I have very little trouble using a Qwerty keyboard with standard mapping if a use a different laptop. I'm probably a bit slower, but that's not really a problem if it's a computer I don't use that often.
pvorb 7y ago
I don't get why they couldn't fit both a touch bar and the function keys on a 16 inch laptop. Other vendors manage to put a numpad on their notebooks of similar sizes.
hindsightbias 7y ago
Ive is gone, perhaps function over form will be the new aluminium.
jbj 7y ago
coming from ubuntu before mbp(2013) I anyways found the escape key to inconsistent to appreciate. depending on your state of full screen and what program you are in it will give you different response (exit full screen vs in program functionality) hence tried to disincorporate usage of escapekey from my muscle memory alltogether.
iceporter 7y ago
why you consider full size left and right arrow bad?
anovikov 7y ago
I must be missing something out, but what's wrong with left and right arrow keys? I have 2018 15'' mbp and they are just fine. Or you mean up and down arrows?
TMWNN 7y ago
>The lack of physical function keys remains regrettable, and the Touch Bar is still no worthy substitute If the Touch Bar had been introduced above physical function keys, we'd consider it yet another Apple UI breakthrough, and other companies would imitate it the way every notebook today looks like the 2001 TiBook. >perhaps this is a sign that Apple is finally interested in listening to feedback from its long-term customer base, even if that feedback conflicts with the design team's desires I don't think the fact that Jony Ive left the company a few months ago is a coincidence. Basically, Apple finally got notebook keyboards right ... after three years of worldwide embarrassment, and the departure of the company's chief designer!

htk 7y ago

I feel the same. The stubbornness of Apple that was so frustrating is a bit more flexible now, paying attention to "subtle" feedback like the arrow key's sizes.

gigatexal 7y ago
We devs are so conservative. It's ridiculous. Nobody allows Apple to innovate.
- Someone1234 7y ago
  Apple can innovate as much as they wish. For example put the touchbar above the keyboard or below the LCD. Nobody is complaining about the TouchID on the power button for example, since that maintains its core purpose. People are complaining because 30+ year old keys they rely on to do their professional work were removed to add arguably a gimmick with a worse user experience/no touch feedback.
  - theklr 7y ago
    Just like people complained when they dropped floppy and and PS/2 for CDs and USB? Or when they introduced a smartphone with no physical keyboard? Anecdotes don't make it fact.
    - llampx 7y ago
      You can see the difference in reactions to know that it wasn't wanted or desired by the target market. Its not anecdotes anymore, its data which we've had 3 years to accumulate.
      - foldr 7y ago
        I don't think there is a difference in reactions. A vocal minority complain every time Apple changes anything. Lots of people complained about the chiclet keyboard when the 2008 Macbook Pro came out. And shipping a computer without a floppy drive or a PS/2 port seemed crazy to many people at the time.
      - matt4077 7y ago
        Oh, don't underestimate the longevity of the no-floppy and especially the no-ethernet complainers. Just as one data point: there are non-ironic gripes about those decisions in this very thread.
- rurp 7y ago
  Change for the sake of change isn't innovation, it's a waste of time. Spending hours fiddling with a dysfunctional keyboard that breaks after a week of normal use or has a gimmicky non-standard layout is not how I want to spend my finite time and mental energy.
Someone1234 7y ago
It may be "flexible" or their hand was forced. I know, personally, at least half a dozen people who have either delayed a Macbook purchased or outright moved to PC alternatives (e.g. XPS 13, Surface Laptop) because of the poor keyboard (both reliability and touchbar). Now six people isn't statistically significant, but if that trend mirrors a wider one it could be costing Apple a measurable amount. The real question is will this be enough to satisfy e.g. programmers that actually want to bind the F keys to build/clean/run/step over/etc?
- bluedino 7y ago
  They'll go right back, don't worry.
  - Someone1234 7y ago
    Go back to what? They already haven't purchased a new Macbook in five or more years, that money is already lost to Apple. All Apple can do is try to get them for their next upgrade.
  - CydeWeys 7y ago
    I don't think I am.
  - x0x0 7y ago
    Why is that bad? Apple for once listened to feedback and made corresponding changes; what's wrong with saying k, thanks, great?
- saberience 7y ago
  I've just ordered my first Windows laptop ever, literally. Dell XPS 13 (6 core model). I've been using Macbook Pros solely since the original Aluminium model when Apple moved to Intel processors. Apple's apparent hubris and inability to go back on their design decisions (Touch Bar...) has just pushed me over the edge. I've been using my mid 2015 Macbook Pro and hopefully waiting for them to release a new MBP ideally without the touch or move the trackpad down/make it smaller, and have the Touchbar PLUS physical function keys (which I use for programming). So yeah... "Pro" users at least in my case (and some friends) are moving away from Apple.
mschaef 7y ago
It takes a long time to get a design through the point of manufacture... especially at that scale. And even before that happens, an organization needs to admit that it has to happen in the first place. For everybody saying the keyboard sucked and needed improvement, there were at least a few people within Apple that had staked something on the design as it was.
- ianai 7y ago
  And yet, I don’t think I’ll upgrade solely because of the touchbar. It’s horrible.
  - mschaef 7y ago
    I've had a touchbar machine as my primary for a couple years now and essentially don't use the touchbar. But I didn't use f-keys all that much either. I think there are some software improvement that could maybe make it better, but I'm not sure better enough to be compelling.
    - nicoburns 7y ago
      How easy is changing the volume with the touch bar. I use the function keys for that all the time.
      - saagarjha 7y ago
        You slide on the virtual key.
        mschaef 7y ago
        I mentioned you in a peer post that you might not otherwise notice. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21529637 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21529637
        saagarjha 7y ago
bluedino 7y ago
Follow the money. It was cheaper to stick with that design for 3 iterations than it was to change it.

dashwav 7y ago

The escape key will be especially welcome by me, as I found the touchbar exceptionally hard to deal with, and I would often have to hit it three or four times to get vim to exit insert mode. I actually didn't have much trouble with the arrow keys, despite all the negative feedback I saw for them online. Hopefully this trend continues and they can iterate on this model even further.

crusso 7y ago
I remapped caps lock to escape and it's been wonderful. The oversized caps lock key on keyboards is an inexplicably bad UI choice anyway.
- Tsiklon 7y ago
  Personally I find a classic Unix layout to work best for me. I’ve mapped the caps lock key to CTRL. I use that far more than I ever use caps, it feels quite natural to me after about a week or two of adjustment.
  - PascLeRasc 7y ago
    You can use Karabiner Elements to configure your Caps Lock to act as Ctrl when held down, and escape when tapped alone. Best of both worlds.
    - matttb 7y ago
      In addition to this you can do something like mapping Shift+Caps Lock to be an actual Caps Lock toggle. Now you get 3 buttons for one and it works amazingly well.
    - darkteflon 7y ago
      This was a revelation when I discovered it earlier this year. I could never go back now, it’s so convenient.
- DogLover_ 7y ago

systemtest 7y ago

They also brought back the 100 watt-hour battery

dublin 7y ago
Who cares about Watt-hours? What matters is how long it runs - I'd be perfectly happy with a laptop that runs a month on a 1.5 Watt-hour AAA battery. Kinda like Amps for vacuum cleaners, this can actually be a measure of INefficiency.
- corywright 7y ago
  The TSA cares.

spuz 7y ago

I have never used them, but what is wrong with the full-sized left and right arrow keys?

throwanem 7y ago
They're hard to locate by touch. Seems counter-intuitive, maybe, but I'm sure I won't be alone in attesting from experience that it does make a difference.
wtallis 7y ago
It's much harder to blindly tell where in the arrow key cluster your finger has landed without the blank spaces of the inverted T layout.
- dpkonofa 7y ago
  I do not understand this at all as the break in between the up/down arrow keys is far more apparent to touch than even the bump on the F key that's supposed to allow you to blindly return to the home keys. If that little bump works, how can a full break not be working for you?
  - saagarjha 7y ago
    A full-height arrow key is almost identical to the key next to it.
    - dkonofalski 7y ago
      That depends on which key you're referring to. On the Macbook, the left arrow key is right next to the up/down half-keys. If you touch to the right and you're hitting another full key, you're not at the arrow key. Again, I don't understand how the bump on the F key works but somehow the giant dip in between the two up/down keys is the problem...?
      - saagarjha 7y ago

Zenst 7y ago

When it comes to function keys, you either use them lots or rarely and for the former, yes - a physical key is prefered by far. However I see the advantages in other situations with the touchbar, however it would be great if the users had a choice. How hard would it be to have the touchbar in a modular design form that was user changeable and they could fit a row of keys instead? However, there is always the option of an external keyboard. But then you end up carrying even more peripherals that you end up with a really thin light laptop and a second bag with all the adapters to enable to you to use the laptop in the way you want. For some it does feel like you got sold an electric sports car, yet end up having to tow a caravan about to carry all the spare batteries and other accessories you had in your previous car. But certainly an opportunity to embrace modular design and allow the end user to customize in a way that has benefits and would win over pundits. EDIT [spelling and fat finger W's]

ghaff 7y ago
>WHen it comes to function keys, you either use them lots or rarely and for the former, yes - a physical key is prefered by far. Yeah, I used function keys all the time back in the DOS days. These days, it's mostly to change sound volume. To your broader point though, modularity can be tough. It inherently adds bulk and cost. And, now, you have connectors that can/will fail.
JonathonW 7y ago
We have a modular laptop in our office-- it's a Dell Precision, and practically everything in the machine's serviceable and replaceable (complete with a detailed service manual, provided by Dell). Replaceable, externally accessible disk drives, replaceable RAM, replaceable modular keyboard, even (IIRC) a socketed processor. The catch is that all that modularity makes the thing massive-- the thing's a good 2-3 inches thick (with lid closed) and weighs nearly 8 pounds. It looks like what you'd get if you took a '90s-era laptop chassis, stretched it to modern screen proportions, and stuck modern innards inside. It's just not practical unless it's going to spend all its time sitting on a desk, and that begs the question of why you wouldn't just buy a desktop in the first place.
- 7y ago

dvcrn 7y ago

I like the Touch Bar a lot. Not having esc was the only gripe I had with it but I personally much prefer the multifunctional bar over some static f keys

input_sh 7y ago
I'm curious, do you usually blind type? If so, what advantage does it bring to you to look down on your keys? Also, in an optimal seating position (elbows at 90 degrees), do your fingers obscure the visibility of the touch bar?
- pcr910303 7y ago
  Not parent, but I'm also a user that likes the Touch Bar (see comment history). To answer, > Do you usually blind type? Yes. > If so, what advantage does it bring to you to look down on your keys? For simple actions (like opening a new tab) there is no need to look down on keys. IMO this is little Apple's fault, whenever I use a tabbable & Touch Bar-usable application I set the new tab button on the right. I usually place the trash button (on Finder, Mail and some other apps) on the middle of the Touch Bar. For some more complex actions (like selecting an emoji/suggestion, or moving between photos, etc...) it's just as fast/faster to glance over and move your fingers instead of using shortcuts/trackpad. > Also, in an optimal seating position (elbows at 90 degrees) I'm not sure if I'm in optimal seating position, but... (If you're meaning if my elbows are on the same height of the display yes) > do your fingers obscure the visibility of the touch bar? No, not at all. I can clearly see the Touch Bar whether my fingers are.
  - samastur 7y ago
    Is there an app on Mac that does not support clover-T for new tabs?
    - pcr910303 7y ago
      No, but I frequently find it easier to reach the Touch Bar (where only one finger needs to move) than to press Cmd-T (where two fingers need to move). I also use Cmd-T a lot too! :-)

calbear81 7y ago

I’m sure someone has suggested this at some point but why not physical keys with an lcd underneath each key? This would allow those keys to be fully customizable and be worthy of the “Pro” designation.

mschaef 7y ago
Or even both the touchbar and the physical keys on the pro models? 7-row keyboards are a thing.
CydeWeys 7y ago
How about e-ink instead? Having 100 individual LCDs seems like it's be energy expensive. The problem with both of these is they'd just be expensive, period. And solving a problem I don't often have.
bszupnick 7y ago
Reminds me of a phone I used to have: https://gizmodo.com/samsung-alias-2-e-ink-flip-phone-review-5251232 https://gizmodo.com/samsung-alias-2-e-ink-flip-phone-review-... The keyboard was fully E-ink, so it changed based on the app or orientation of your phone. It was pretty awesome!
journalctl 7y ago
Because it’s expensive, bulky, and unnecessary. Something like this already exists: the Optimus Maximus keyboard. And while it’s a cool concept, it’s not without its rough edges. [1] [1] https://www.artlebedev.com/optimus/maximus/ https://www.artlebedev.com/optimus/maximus/
- Cthulhu_ 7y ago
  Wasn't the Maximus made with tech that is now 10 years old? I can imagine that costs have decreased by at least an order of magnitude by now, now that oled is much more mainstream.
- antonyh 7y ago
  I wanted one of these when I first spotted it, but in hindsight it would be too dependent on software to work and I'd probably end up spending ages setting it up when the right thing to do would be to get blank key caps.

insta_anon 7y ago

Agreed, as long as I am forced to use the TouchBar, it personally for me is not "the world’s best pro notebook".

theklr 7y ago
Could there be more pros than you?
- insta_anon 7y ago
  Sure, but besides a very low number of comments on HN I've never seen anyone who really appreciated the TouchBar (and the increased price it causes). Say Apple would offer a model with and without TouchBar and the TouchBar model would cost $400 more, how many people would be willing to pay that? I bet it would be less than 5%, maybe even less than 1%.
briandear 7y ago
What is your job? Just curious how pro you really are.
Izmaki 7y ago
For shuffling VMs it's really helpful.
dylan604 7y ago
Forget being forced to use it, I'd like to not be forced to pay for it. How much does the price of the MBP go up because of all of the parts required for the touch bar?

stopadvertising 7y ago

It's funny how stubbornly arrogant Apple is, they could have taken over a huge swath of PC/workstation market share if they had undone these bad decisions years ago. They don't really care, they are a phone company now, I get it, but still. The arrogance is astounding.

tsss 7y ago

So the keyboard guaranteed to break within the first 6 months on a 3k laptop is not among the worst two things?

Reason077 7y ago

> "the two worst things about the original Touch Bar MBPs - the lack of a physical Escape key, and the full-size left and right arrow keys." The "butterfly mechanism" keyboards are awful, unreliable, and get worse with time, so I'm very glad to see them go. Likewise, the return of the physical Escape key is very welcome. But honestly, the design of the arrow keys has never bothered me in the slightest. If anything, the present configuration is slightly better because it's aesthetically cleaner and gives you a larger surface to hit the left and right arrows.

stetrain 7y ago
But when not looking at the keyboard, having full height left and right arrow keys makes them feel just like the nearby Option and ? keys. Having a distinct arrow-key-group shape makes them easier to locate by touch.
- dpkonofa 7y ago
  You can't feel the break in between the up/down arrow keys by touch?
  - geerlingguy 7y ago
    It's not always easy. If I need to quickly move to the arrow keys (I touch type, so no looking!), I have about 80-85% success finding the right key on the first press... with the inverted-T layout, that's about 99%. There's something weird about the way my brain handles the key being the same size as the option key next to it, and the fact that the tops of all those keys are exactly the same.
    - nicpottier 7y ago
      If you touch type then learn the OS X shortcuts of CTRL-B, CTRL-F, CTRL-P, CTRL-N, far more efficient than moving your hand over to the arrow keys and works in (virtually) all places you are editing text.

adrr 7y ago

Escape key issue was so bad that a lot of my devs mapped caps lock to the escape key. Butterfly keyboard also has some weird workarounds with people carrying around mechanical keyboard.

geerlingguy 7y ago
To be fair, mapping caps to escape has been a thing for years and years. I started doing that once I learned vim about five years back, when I still had an older MacBook Air with a physical escape key.

pwthornton 7y ago

The touchbar has a lot of uses for many people. Developers may not see that much benefit from it (unless they use a native IDE or text editor), but for people who use native apps, the touchbar can be really useful. Getting a physical escape key back and going with a more reliable keyboard design are big wins.

trymas 7y ago

I wonder if the screen reflective coating is better too. AFAIK, since introduction of retina screens of MacBooks (2012) it's a matter of time that the reflective coating will start to peel off and will leave ugly blotches.

theklr 7y ago
This seems highly anecdotal. I have a launch 2012 retina still with no peeling.
- trymas 7y ago
  I guess, though anyone I knew who used retina macbooks had issue with screen peeling off within 1-3 years of use. There was a replacement program for a bit, so there was a possibility to change the screen, though after some time changed screens are peeling off too. I know even an anecdote where almost brand new 2016 rmbp after working outside, had a spots of peeled off coating, because apparently light dust have scratched it. Thankfully Apple replaced the screen.
  - bschwindHN 7y ago
    I wonder if it has any correlation with people who close the lid but continue running heavy workloads on their machine. The extra heat could possibly be a cause for delamination.
    - nikisweeting 7y ago
      Nah, I see it on student laptops all the time (who aren't running anything with the lid off). Also not correlated to putting pressure on the lid with it closed, I've lugged mine around in a backpack full of stuff for years and have no peeling issues.
theslurmmustflo 7y ago
There was a recall for this delamination issue in earlier MBPs. I think even the last generation didn't have this problem anymore.

sneak 7y ago

> perhaps this is a sign that Apple is finally interested in listening to feedback from its long-term customer base What makes you think they stopped? You know it takes a couple years to design and ship hardware at this level (as well as to design the production lines to be able to build a few million more copies), yes? It’s not like a web app where they can change, test, PR, and deploy in a few days or weeks or months. There is a lot of preproduction work that goes into building the kind of objects Apple is now famous for and are almost taken for granted.

Retric 7y ago

What I really don’t get is the Touch Bar could just sit in between the number keys and function keys. Even on 13” models there is space for both and a giant touch pad. They have been forced to add it to just about every model to keep people from downgrading to avoid the thing. Which ok saved me money, but I would expect this to get the point across.

timfrietas 7y ago
I'd want the touch bar to sit on top of the function keys, but I agree. I also would be much happier if it was just easier to turn it off or if it at least made each touch action take 200ms or so so that I don't accidentally hit it all the time.

daveheq 7y ago

How 'bout a full-size up and down key? I use those all the time and those scrunched keys are easy to make mistakes on.

GloriousKoji 7y ago
The touch pad is ridiculously huge now, going by my greasy finger smears I maybe use only 50% of the total area. They could easy sacrifice some of that real estate to put the touchbar as row above the function keys and feature a full size set of offset arrow keys.
- duderific 7y ago
  Agree, I often end up brushing the touch pad accidentally with the heel of my hand while typing, and inadvertently moving the cursor somewhere up the page. Maybe someone else can weigh in on any advantages to having such a large touch pad.
  - 1123581321 7y ago
    You can drag further with it or use it at a higher sensitivity and drag as much as you used to. There are also more places you can start dragging so it’s more likely you will naturally touch your finger down and start dragging.

starbugs 7y ago

I predict that from now on the touch bar will slowly become smaller and smaller until it disappears completely. It would have been better if they'd gotten rid of it entirely in one iteration though.

Izmaki 7y ago
I like it. It helps me control my music, volume and VMs all at once without having to bother with windows or holding down key modifiers
- starbugs 7y ago
  Yeah me too, but I don't like accidentally touching something and then being out of context. Also happens with the gigantic track pad. It's really annoying.

reaperducer 7y ago

I was sorta kinda OK with the missing escape key. For me the biggest keyboard improvement is a return to the inverted-T arrow layout.

throw0101a 7y ago

> ... the lack of a physical Escape key, and the full-size left and right arrow keys. Seems that if you scream hard enough AAPL listens: > What Apple emphasized is simply that they listened to the complaints from professional MacBook users. They recognized how important the Escape key is to developers — they even mentioned Vim by name during a developer tool demo. * https://daringfireball.net/2019/11/16-inch_macbook_pro_first_impressions https://daringfireball.net/2019/11/16-inch_macbook_pro_first...

woah 7y ago

I almost never use the function keys and I am a programmer. They made the right call on that one. Just because you use an editor that makes use of rarely used keys doesn’t mean that they are a universal truth.

LocalPCGuy 7y ago
Do you debug and use the keys to control it? This is my biggest gripe, since most IDEs (and browsers if web dev) map debugging to the Fn keys, so I end up using them a LOT. I hate clicking the debugging icons, particularly since I tend to use a few different editors/browsers and they are all in different spots.
- Jako33 7y ago
  First thing that comes to mind when mentioning the Fn keys is debugging, however I always found that is feels unintuitive to use and would be eager to change my habits to learn more intuitive shortcuts.
- saagarjha 7y ago
  I remap those almost immediately :(

papln 7y ago

It took 3 years for Apple to quietly acknowledge those mistakes.

TMWNN 7y ago
Jony Ive leaving the company a few months ago is not a coincidence.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

anewguy9000 7y ago

those were not the worst things. a keyboard that breaks a week after you get it was the worst thing. the second worse thing is this redefinition of a computer into a big ipad. where does my sd card go? i cant plugin to the hdmi tv at a friends or a board room? why does it have a headphone jack? if we dont need it on our phone why do we need it on a laptop (lol)? oh yeah because inch by inch... apple is the epitome of capitalism, good and bad, and lately more bad than good.

nordsieck 7y ago
> where does my sd card go? i cant plugin to the hdmi tv at a friends or a board room? Apple has a long and storied history of removing drives and ports that it considers obsolete. No one should be surprised at this point.
- egwor 7y ago
  I have to say that I agree with the parent post. I specifically haven't upgraded because: 1. no hdmi 2. no sd 3. escape key 4. keyboard 5. magsafe 6. usb a I admit that maybe #6 is a little Luddite-like but there will be too many leads around which are usb-a which I'll need to use an adapter on. Right now, this is genuinely annoying that I need to carry around all these adapters which all cost quite a lot each. Talking to one of my colleagues who has one of the 13" macbooks. He said that you just changed to be more careful about the lack of magsafe. Maybe I'll learn? For HDMI. This is dumb for everyone who will ever have to do a presentation. For SD. Tre-annoying, since my camera is usb-a. So I have to be $30 for an sd card reader. Yet another adapter. Maybe someone should do some photos of a laptop with all the leads hanging off?! Then the designers might appreciate that it looks crap and do something about it.... Conclusion: you buy the MacBook Pro with max memory; upgrade the graphics card (why not... it isn't that much); up the disk size; buy a usb c adapter; buy a hdmi adapter; buy a sd card reader; buy a lightning cable converter too. That totals $5000. Ouch.
  - killjoywashere 7y ago
    > He said that you just changed to be more careful about the lack of magsafe. Maybe I'll learn? Having magsafe on my retina MacBook, with little kids in the house, may have been the best leisure hack I've ever enjoyed. The hack came from lack of anxiety about the kids tripping over the cord and bringing the laptop crashing to the floor, enabling me to simply set the machine down, walk away, and play with the kids instead. Now I would have to put the laptop somewhere out-of-sight in order for it to charge.

heavyset_go 7y ago

> I'm astonished and pleased to see they walked back the two worst things about the original Touch Bar MBPs Apple still hasn't walked back on mandatory notarization on Catalina. In January 2020, they're removing the option to run software that isn't locally compiled or notarized[1]. [1] https://developer.apple.com/news/?id=09032019a https://developer.apple.com/news/?id=09032019a

prewett 7y ago
I believe that is not correct, you can still run unsigned apps, you just have to enable them in System Preferences >> Security and Privacy. https://www.howtogeek.com/443611/how-macos-catalinas-new-security-features-work/ https://www.howtogeek.com/443611/how-macos-catalinas-new-sec... (middle of page)
- saagarjha 7y ago
  Or secondary click on them and open them from the menu that pops up.
lostgame 7y ago
Worst is certainly removal of 32-bit support. I'll personally never be using anything past Mojave. It would literally cost me from purchased software that is now incompatible and will not be updated. To say Apple has lost its way would be an understatement. Apple is actively detrimenting those who have stayed in its ecosystem for decades. As a professional audio engineer, I refuse to lose several of my plugins to a quote-unquote 'upgrade.' If I lose access to my software, you are not 'upgrading' my OS, you are removing access to what worked perfectly before. I also refuse to lose Adobe CS6, by which I've paid a full license for. No, I have no interest in updates. I had no interest in updates post-CS3, to be honest. There is no benefit to the lack of 32-bit support that could be worth losing it. If they did this because they're moving to ARM, fuck them. Don't let your behind the scenes process fuck with my day-to-day ability to work. I'm literally going to have to leave behind my career as an iOS developer - I refuse by principle to purchase new Apple products ('vote with your money') - and I certainly refuse to accept an 'upgrade' that annihilates the usability of some of my most important software, in the name of...what? What possible benefit does removing 32-bit support lend to the customer? None. It's literally just a fuck you to me for supporting them for years. What a damn shame.

georgebarnett 7y ago

Touchbar doesn’t make sense until you install something like Pock.Dev. After doing that, it’s useful.

waylandsmithers 7y ago
I was skeptical too, but some apps have found really great ways to use it: - Mute/unmute on skype - Preview and switcher for a number of slides at a time in powerpoint - Mirror displays / extend desktop when connected to an external display

wwweston 7y ago

It turns out that people who buy laptops -- a mobile-ish form factor differentiated from a tablet by its keyboard -- might really really care about keyboards as the main interface between user and device. I'd concluded that Apple didn't really think much of laptops anymore, and had simply moved on to caring more about other form factors: it seemed a logical conclusion if one assumed that people at Apple were in fact competent. This shows some real care regarding laptops as a form factor and puts them back in the running for a lot of buyers, including me. But there's still one major issue that I don't see people talking much about -- the way that Apple's decisions regarding storage (namely soldering it to the board AND making it so that there's no way to access it in the event of a logic board failure) increases consumer risk as well as decreasing consumer choice: https://www.notebookcheck.net/Apple-removes-the-Customer-Data-Migration-Tool-connector-in-the-the-2018-MacBook-Pro-with-Touch-Bar.318186.0.html https://www.notebookcheck.net/Apple-removes-the-Customer-Dat... It increases risk of data loss. That's a choice that impacts the day-to-day experience much less than the keyboard, which explains why the keyboard has gotten much more attention, and it really is nice that a company arguably built on attention to experience returned to that aspect of it. But this kind of choice makes a huge difference in a moment of failure, and it's at least equally user-hostile, especially in a product bearing the name "pro" where data recovery can be a matter of business continuity. I suppose that one can argue a responsible professional will be using network and external backups (and of course all responsible professionals worth considering or selling anything to will do this, right?), and so this isn't necessary, and Apple's thing (wise or unwise) is that they frequently reconsider and eliminate things that aren't crucial. But redundancy in some areas is wise, and I can't see what they think eliminating both removability AND emergency direct access when it come to storage actually buys them. Even if one assumes it's a lock-in action for service, it makes the actual service more difficult and costly. I'm liking the keyboard correction. I just bought a 2014 MBP to replace an older failing MBP, so I'm not in the market for something else for a year or two, but when that comes up, I'll be seriously looking at the 16" as an option. And this will be what I'm thinking about.

catalogia 7y ago
Maybe somebody at Apple got the idea that telling more users "Sorry, your data is gone forever, no way to get it back." increases user perception of device security (that it's hard to get your data off your device; if Apple can't do it then criminals can't either.) I'd rather have FDE on a removable drive, but perhaps the typical user doesn't really have a clear mental picture of what's going on.

CelestialTeapot 7y ago

Other than still selling the Touch Bar as something we want, I'm somewhat pleased, myself. But I am still unhappy about the keyboard. Perhaps it may be better (a mote of dust won't immediately clog it?), but a 1mm travel is still a 1mm travel: rather abrupt. The drive to continually reduce thickness has to be reversed. I want a good experience with all aspects of a device's usage, that includes the physical human-computer interface.

hinkley 7y ago

If you look closely, not only is there a physical escape key, there's a physical fingerprint key, and the touch bar is also elevated. You still might not to be able to use the touch bar without looking at it, but at least you can find it without looking at it. I was half expecting them to use haptics on the touch bar. Still no luck there.

stefco_ 7y ago
When the touchbar first came out, I thought we'd see haptics in the second iteration. It seems so obvious that pressure-sensitivity and haptics could mitigate a lot of the weaknesses of the touchbar. What I really miss is upgradeable RAM and SSD. Still using a 2010 MBP because I was able to upgrade it; that's no longer possible.

godelski 7y ago

> the lack of a physical Escape key C-[ is the same thing in Unix. I haven't tried it on a Mac though. But if you're using vim (mostly where I hear this complaint) use C-[ (actually just use it in vim anyways because who wants to lift their hand up to do such a common movement?)

stingrae 7y ago
I just map caps lock to escape, then i need even less finger movement.
- woadwarrior01 7y ago
  They even made it super simple to remap caps-lock to escape in OSX Sierra (the release of which, probably coincided with the release of the first Touch Bar MacBook Pro). You can do it from System Preferences, without any extra software like Karabiner. Although, I still use Karabiner Elements for some more complex keyboard remapping.
- godelski 7y ago
  I don't understand this binding (it is a common one). I don't want a 50/50 shot of having caps lock on (or my light indicator). I'm also a fan of keeping things as vanilla as possible (I do use plenty of plugins and stuff, but almost every problem you have vim solves natively)
  - matt4077 7y ago
    With Karabiner, I never have such issues. Caps Lock becomes a normal key. The light is never on. Caps are never. actually locked. It's a key that's drastically oversized compared to it's barely measurable amount of regular use.
  - audunw 7y ago
    > I don't want a 50/50 shot of having caps lock on (or my light indicator). What? Have you tried this feature at all? If you map Esc to Caps Lock in Mac OS, the light indicator never turns on, and you don't enable caps lock when you press that key. Or do you mean that this is what'll happen if you use a different computer? In my experience that's not a problem at all. Muscle-memory can be made context sensitive. I use two different keyboard layouts (dvorak and qwerty), two different key arrangements (staggered on my laptop, grid on ErgoDox), Esc mapped to Caps-Lock on my home laptop, completely different key mappings on my ErgoDox at work, and still I have very little trouble using a Qwerty keyboard with standard mapping if a use a different laptop. I'm probably a bit slower, but that's not really a problem if it's a computer I don't use that often.

pvorb 7y ago

I don't get why they couldn't fit both a touch bar and the function keys on a 16 inch laptop. Other vendors manage to put a numpad on their notebooks of similar sizes.

hindsightbias 7y ago

Ive is gone, perhaps function over form will be the new aluminium.

jbj 7y ago

coming from ubuntu before mbp(2013) I anyways found the escape key to inconsistent to appreciate. depending on your state of full screen and what program you are in it will give you different response (exit full screen vs in program functionality) hence tried to disincorporate usage of escapekey from my muscle memory alltogether.

iceporter 7y ago

why you consider full size left and right arrow bad?

anovikov 7y ago

I must be missing something out, but what's wrong with left and right arrow keys? I have 2018 15'' mbp and they are just fine. Or you mean up and down arrows?

TMWNN 7y ago

>The lack of physical function keys remains regrettable, and the Touch Bar is still no worthy substitute If the Touch Bar had been introduced above physical function keys, we'd consider it yet another Apple UI breakthrough, and other companies would imitate it the way every notebook today looks like the 2001 TiBook. >perhaps this is a sign that Apple is finally interested in listening to feedback from its long-term customer base, even if that feedback conflicts with the design team's desires I don't think the fact that Jony Ive left the company a few months ago is a coincidence. Basically, Apple finally got notebook keyboards right ... after three years of worldwide embarrassment, and the departure of the company's chief designer!